Recovery without outside help....can it happen?

[joedris]

Dear sfgirl, We're splitting hairs here. As you asked, Why could your friends spontaneously stop and we couldn't? It's because we're alcoholics and I will argue that they're not. I argue that they did not qualify as alcohol dependent for a period of time. They certainly qualified as alcohol abusers per DSM IV. But did they exhibit withdrawal symptoms or indicate a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down? They were successful in cutting down.

If you choose to believe that there exists a finite period of chemical dependency then by all means do so. We simply agree to disagree. But we're all in agreement (even my friend bugsworth) that the important thing here is that an alcoholic stop drinking. Whatever method or program they choose to accomplish this is irrevelant. I've always maintained that if howling at the moon will help keep you sober, then howl away.

People come to this site seeking help and advice. They certainly deserve to be offered different perspectives to their problems. I suggest AA. You and bugsworth and many others suggest alternative methods. We base our suggestions on what worked for us. Let the one asking for advice choose their approach. And let's all be supportive of any choice they make.

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by joedris

Dear sfgirl, We're splitting hairs here.

true, true

[Boleo]

I to got sober outside of AA. When my obsession was finally lifted I realized that what worked for me was I;

1. Admitted that I was licked
2. Appealed to my Higher-Power for help
3. Detached from my self-reliance
4. Turned my thoughts to helping others

Not exactly the 12 steps of AA but close. Close enough that I now participate in and support AA as a program of action.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by joedris

Dear Bugsworth, I apologize if my comment about Plan B sounded condescending. It certainly wasn't meant to be. I take alchohollism and recovery very seriously. While I'm a proponent of AA, I also recognize that many people do get sober without it. I applaud them for having the ability to do that. And I despise the term "dry drunk" which is often used in referring to someone who got sober without using the AA program. Unfortunately, I've seen too many people over the years dismiss AA without having an alternative plan. And trying to conquer this disease without some sort of plan in mind is usually futile. I earnestly hope that anyone who wants to get sober is successful in doing so. Hence my comment.

As the the 5% figure, I've heard it applied to those who fail to stay in AA for a year, for those who attend a meeting and never return, and for those who stay in AA and reach 5 years of sobriety. I still encourage everyone to be very skeptical of any statistic concerning success and sobriety, regardless of how that sobriety is achieved. No really knows how many people are successful in getting and staying sober, and I doubt that there will ever be an accurate figure here. And believe me, AA will never shout anything from the rooftops. If you read the 12 Traditions of AA you'll understand why.

Dear sfgirl, My objection to Dr. Willengerg's comment stems from his contention that there's a condition of temporary dependence on alcohol. I'm familiar with the DSM-IV definition and would like to point out here that nowhere does DSM-IV indicate that dependence on alcohol can be a temporary condition. Alcoholism is not temporary. The AMA defines it as "a primary chronic disease...". The word "chronic" meaning permanent. And I agree that the doctor is an intelligent man, well qualified for his position in NIAA. But while it's possible that there may exist a condition of temporary dependence, the doctor is going to have to give some supporting documentation to back up his statement.

And lastly for Boleo. The Irishman your were referring to is Matt Talbot.

Chronic does not mean permanent it means long lasting. Alcoholism refers to the overconsumption of alcohol. nothing more nothing less. If you are not drinking you are not suffering from alcoholism. I think is very important point. This is the generally excepted medical definition which experts refer to when talking about alcoholism.

Something I found annoying in AA is people describing any mental illness as the ism of alcoholism. It encourages the one size fits all solution, it makes people reluctant to get specialized help as they believe everybody is suffering the same mental problem as everybody else. Even ones who don't have any mental health unless you call lack of discipline and selfishness a mental illness!

[herennow]

Hello
Well I think it may be my HP working today because I really needed to read this thread - everyone has so many good positive insightful tools to be shared! Needhappiness, I am approaching 5 yrs clean and sober on Nov 1/09. I have not entered treatment or a NA room in that time period - BUT - I do read the literature daily and have worked the steps to the best of my ability on my own. I am an addict - there isn't a doubt in my mind. I cannot say that your BF does or does not need a program to succeed. I can share what happens to me though if I "sway" from my own recovery. My thought process changes - it's that simple! I can only peak for myself but this has been the most challenging part of my recovery. What gets me back on track is the literature - BUT - I can tell you that I have been exploring my reasoning for NOT going to a meeting lately and this thread has proven that meetings DO HELP those who need them. The main thing that stops me is simply fear (for my family and profession) and I will post another thread to get more feedback on that later.
I hope this helps you - If your BF isn't oppose to reading the books I would suggest at least that much - to keep him grounded through the stormy weather of recovery - cause it can get really nasty at times (for me at least)!
Best of luck
xx

[yeahgr8]

Love this discussion.

I go to AA, my sponsor has 23 years sobriety, i would really love to explain to people that refuse to work the steps and go out again how to do get sober a different way, if anyone has say 15 years+ of sobriety and can outline how they did it on their own...i'm all ears;-)

I'm not having a go here, i just want to see how you did it? In fact if anyone personally knows of anyone with 15+ years of sobriety who did it by themselves then that will do, if you know the story:-)

[joedris]

Dear kurtrambis, I will concede the definition of chronic as long lasting, but let's also include the word "continuing". But alcoholism is not merely the overconsumption of alcohol. If that were the case, then the majority of people who drink would be considered alcoholics as most of them have overconsumed at some point in time. I would again refer to the AMA definition (which I argue is the generally accepted definition) of alcoholism which includes the words "continuous or periodic impaired control over drinking..." Alcoholics drink because they cannot not drink. They are physically and psychologically dependent on the drug alcohol.

Whether an alcoholic is drinking or not has no bearing on the existence of the disease. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in a long time but my doctor considers me to have the disease of alcoholism and writes prescriptions accordingly.

I do agree with you on the point of AA nazis and the isms mentality. It's unfortunate but a lot of the old timers in AA have a simplistic attitude of one size fits all. They're going to do things because that's the way they were taught. One thing I've learned over the years is that alcoholism affects everyone differently, and each alcoholic who walks through the doors is a unique individual with unique problems. It's sad that the nazi mentality turns so many people away. I guess I was lucky as my initial exposure had a good impression on me. I could have easily walked away disgusted, too.

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

Love this discussion.

I go to AA, my sponsor has 23 years sobriety, i would really love to explain to people that refuse to work the steps and go out again how to do get sober a different way, if anyone has say 15 years+ of sobriety and can outline how they did it on their own...i'm all ears;-)

I'm not having a go here, i just want to see how you did it? In fact if anyone personally knows of anyone with 15+ years of sobriety who did it by themselves then that will do, if you know the story:-)

Ask me in 14 years.

Seriously, this is the sort of statement that really irks me.

People have long-term sobriety outside of AA. The reason you don't hear about them is probably because you are hearing about your sponsor's sober birthday in an AA room. Why would someone who got sober in another way be in there? People get sober in so many different ways. A good book to read which outlines and tells the stories of I think 100+ people with long-term (5+, don't worry there are some in there with 15+) non-AA sobriety is Sober for Good by Anne Fletcher. It ranges from spontaneously stopping after years of trying, individual therapy, a combination of factors, etc.

This is not to knock AA either. Both can concurrently exist. It is a both/and statement. That is what irks me most. It isn't like, "I got sober outside of AA so AA is no longer valid." No, people get good, solid sobriety outside of AA. People get good, solid sobriety in AA. Conversely some people cannot get sober outside of AA. And some people cannot get sober in AA.

[Dee74]

I'll have a big ole thread when I get 5 years LOL

The more I go on, the more I realise my recovery model shares a lot of characteristics with a 12 step model.

I've accepted I cannot control alcohol, and I've accepted I cannot drink again (not without consequences).

I do a lot of service work - because it really isn't all about me - and I try my best to be rigourously honest with myself, and in my dealings with others.

I do these last things not because I might drink again if I don't, but because I want to be the best me I can be.

Personally, I think anybody who focuses purely on their alcoholism in recovery is missing out on a lot.

And anybody who thinks they have all the answers is, in my opinion, pretty much missing the point

D

[notofeudalism]

it is when you look at sentencing by courts that mandate AA and other stuff. The it becomes perfectly logical

[Sugah]

I haven't read the whole thread (nor do I wish to -- what I've seen seems to be a debate-bordering-on-argument), Dee, but I wanted to comment on a couple of things in your last post.

Originally Posted by Dee74

Personally, I think anybody who focuses purely on their alcoholism in recovery is missing out on a lot.

Something else you'd find in a healthy 12 step fellowship is that those who have the most solid recovery find out very quickly that alcohol and/or (if you believe in and/or) drug consumption is but the very tip of the iceberg -- merely a symptom. If all it would do for me was keep me dry, I'd been back out on the streets a long time ago.

And anybody who thinks they have all the answers is, in my opinion, pretty much missing the point

"We know only a little" -- we are 100% in agreement there!

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Dee74]

I agree with you on both points Sugah

I wasn't having a shot at 12 step programmes with the quote you used for your first point, it's merely an attitude I've seen on the boards here from time to time

D

[Sugah]

Originally Posted by Dee74

I wasn't having a shot at 12 step programmes with the quote you used for your first point, it's merely an attitude I've seen on the boards here from time to time

D

I'm witcha, Dee

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[yeahgr8]

Originally Posted by sfgirl

Seriously, this is the sort of statement that really irks me.

Please don't be irked at me though:-) I've met a couple of guys that have come from what seemed as an alcoholic pattern of drinking to abstaining from alcohol, one of them met the love of his life and that was enough to stop daily drinking...this was 8 years ago and as far as i know he is still a changed man. This does bring up the alcoholic or heard drinker question but that's already another thread somewhere i am sure!

I'm quite suprised no-one bought up a certain person on SR as an example, the one with the picture of her beautiful cats as her avatar!

Dee i do agree that if you focus on the alcoholism then you are going to miss out on life, if you focus on your sobriety then you won't...kind of like live in the solution, not in the problem...another AA gem there just for you hehe

Personally i don't care what anyone does as long as they work and achieve the sober life they deserve, my experience is that nothing else worked for me but AA does...my view is that i don't want another person to waste the time i did trying everything else, but then again we could argue is that person ready until they are really ready...again probably another thread somewhere on SR:-)

[keithj]

Originally Posted by sfgirl

This is not to knock AA either. Both can concurrently exist. It is a both/and statement. That is what irks me most. It isn't like, "I got sober outside of AA so AA is no longer valid." No, people get good, solid sobriety outside of AA. People get good, solid sobriety in AA. Conversely some people cannot get sober outside of AA. And some people cannot get sober in AA.

I agree with all of this, sfgirl, except the part I bolded. I work with a lot of newcomers, and I'm pretty in the loop when a new guy comes in. Those that work the steps thoroughly do recover with almost no exceptions. I can't speak with any authority at all on those that stay sober without being in AA. I have little opportunity to be around them. But, AA is a little microcosm of the recovery population. I get to observe people at all points along the spectrum in that small world. Those that work the steps recover. Those that hang around and try to stay sober on their own, even while showing up for meetings, tend to hang around for a few months or a year, and disappear. Then they show up again a year later.

Please don't take this is a defense of AA. I have no need to defend it. If someone finds that they just can't stay sober doing what they are doing, or they've exhausted all their options, or they are just plain miserable being sober, AA offers a solution that will work for them.

I find serious joy and a revolutionary change in my approach to life by living by those AA principles. I believe that same thing is available to anyone who sincerely wants it and is willing to work for it. It doesn't mean you can't find it outside of AA. It just means that if you can't find it, AA has a solution.

[Tosh]

I think whether you can stop drinking without a programme depends on how dependant to alcohol you actually are. I see weekend drunks comming into AA, and I see those addicted to pubs (not alcohol) comming into AA; and fair enough they can stop drinking without a programme and as long as they have a desire to stop drinking everyone is welcome.

Those types of drinkers don't need the steps; some coffee, company and a bit of peer pressure is good enough for them to stop drinking.

But me? I had a million-and-one good reasons not to drink, I tried everything humanly possible to stop and I just couldn't for some reason. I'm not soft; I was a good soldier for 17 years and boxer and considered myself a bit of a tough guy; yet I could not conquer my addiction to alcohol.

I truly believe that if you're a fully fledged alcoholic, the only solution is a spiritual one that'll radically change your mentality (it changes you for the better too). And if you've never had a spiritual experience, then that's a shame; honest.

If this forum could've stopped me from drinking, my sobriety date would've been three years ago; instead of the four months it is now, but I'm full of praise for this forum, since the AA seed must've been planted in my brain; it just took a long time to grow from the mess it was deposited into.

[jamdls]

I got sober w/o a formal program but being sober and being recovered are 2 different things. After I got sober I began working with a professional group that has their own AA alternative it is based completely on AA but only open to members of a particular profession. I only attend their meetings once a year but I handle all the paperwork as the State refers people to the group when they are applying for a license in the profession and they have a police record for something that indicates substance abuse or mental health issues. My involvement with this group has helped me recover. Even more importantly my involvement in my church has helped me recover. And now after nearly 2 yrs sober I am going to start going to AA to help others because that I believe is the most important part of recovery.

[Tosh]

Originally Posted by jamdls

And now after nearly 2 yrs sober I am going to start going to AA to help others because that I believe is the most important part of recovery.

That is our primary purpose.

[penny74]

l have seen alcoholics recover without help.
Not a lot, but it can be done.

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by keithj

I agree with all of this, sfgirl, except the part I bolded. I work with a lot of newcomers, and I'm pretty in the loop when a new guy comes in. Those that work the steps thoroughly do recover with almost no exceptions. I can't speak with any authority at all on those that stay sober without being in AA. I have little opportunity to be around them. But, AA is a little microcosm of the recovery population. I get to observe people at all points along the spectrum in that small world. Those that work the steps recover. Those that hang around and try to stay sober on their own, even while showing up for meetings, tend to hang around for a few months or a year, and disappear. Then they show up again a year later.

The part bolded was:

And some people cannot get sober in AA

I was unwilling to even go to AA. Again the reasons were the language of the Big Book was entirely geared towards men and had significant parts that did not speak to me; I was sexually abused many times (PTSD) and meetings are 70+% men; The first time I went to a meeting a man I did not know or want to know hugged me inappropriately— not okay— when you are raw you should not have to worry so hard about setting boundaries; I grew up in secular family and area, it was too religious in nature (while it is spiritual, its rituals make it seem religious); I'm not a joiner, never have been, I do things on my own. So that is why I was not going to get sober in AA. And please don't try to counter every single point. I have a right to have a treatment that works for me and I found it.

Once one gets inside the rooms, I understand there may be a discrepancy between people who walk the walk and people who just sit around. I think the 12 steps are powerful and I adopted them a lot in my own recovery work. However, to think that they are for every single person in the exact way that AA dishes them out is not correct. I think that AA's existence has enhanced alcohol treatment because it has added a spiritual aspect. I would never have thought to think about those things in my own recovery if it had not been for AA, and I am grateful for that because I realize how lacking it is in our society— this is a problem. However, I will say it again, the rooms are not for everyone, and I don't think this is an arguable statement. If you want proof, which I don't think you should need, here I am.

[Tosh]

sfgirl,

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with AA, and no-one should argue that AA is the only way to recovery; it's in our traditions that we accept there are other methods.

And with regards to AA being 'male heavy', I also understand that is a problem, particularly when it comes to find strong female sponsorship (which is a problem my homegroup has; but is widespread; so I've read).

But if you're working a programme that has elements of spirituallity* in it then that's great and will work. Originally the Big Book was designed to be a stand alone item of recovery; there weren't widespread meetings all over the World when it was written.

I do find it a shame you can't share in the Fellowship though; I really enjoy that; but the spiritual programme is the most important part. But should you wish to reconsider AA, I'm sure if you contacted AA, they could get a female to get in touch with you personally and keep you safe at your first meetings till you feel more comfortable. They could here in the UK I'm sure.

*I'm currently reading a book on Budhism and you'd be surprised at the similarity between the principles of Budhism and the AA spiritual principles.

[sfgirl]

I live in San Francisco and actually go to AA meetings now that I am more recovered and more over the men stuff. I also go to all female meetings. The AA groups are actually quite clicky though and now the irony is that I find it easier to penetrate the coed groups than the all-female groups because for some reason I had a really hard time breaking the ice with the all-female group. With the men, they approach me at least, it does make it easier. But still San Francisco AA meetings have a closed vibe. I went to an AA meeting in Hawaii and that was the best one I have ever been to, not in terms of the shares, but in terms of how damn nice and open everyone was, and the fact that it was outside under a Banyan tree. I must admit that sometimes I do get slightly jealous of fellowship but again I am finding it hard to penetrate. It actually was the topic of people's shares the other night at this huge, too-cool-for-school saturday night meeting. But my actual point was that there are tons of resources here.

Anyways, there are lots of Buddhist recovery events in SF. There is even a year long Buddhist recovery Sangha class/group. Kevin Griffin, the author of One Breath at a Time is speaking a block from my house in a month on the 12th step I think. So I am actually pretty into that stuff.

[keithj]

You make a good point, sfgirl. That is a different meaning of "some people can not get sober in AA" than I was seeing.

[bugsworth]

I think had this question been asked 10+ years ago the answers might be different. Of course recovery is possible without outside help....google, the wonderful invention that it is, will attest to that. LOL There are thousands upon thousands of people on the net that share their story of recovery...many don't include aa, smart, lifering or any other program. Times are changing...in the couple of short years I have been sober the dynamics surrounding recovery have taken a turn...people are speaking up and out about their addictions and offering hope to the masses that there are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. There never has been nor never will be one way or the right way....it simply boils down to your way.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by joedris

Dear kurtrambis, I will concede the definition of chronic as long lasting, but let's also include the word "continuing". But alcoholism is not merely the overconsumption of alcohol. If that were the case, then the majority of people who drink would be considered alcoholics as most of them have overconsumed at some point in time. I would again refer to the AMA definition (which I argue is the generally accepted definition) of alcoholism which includes the words "continuous or periodic impaired control over drinking..." Alcoholics drink because they cannot not drink. They are physically and psychologically dependent on the drug alcohol.

Yes I agree Joe getting drunk the odd time doesn't make you an alcoholic

Originally Posted by joedris

Whether an alcoholic is drinking or not has no bearing on the existence of the disease. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in a long time but my doctor considers me to have the disease of alcoholism and writes prescriptions accordingly.

Well as you probably know Joe whether alcoholism is a disease or not is debatable even amongst the professionals, but that's another thread. I can understand that calling yourself an alcoholic for the rest of your life my help you abstain. But if you haven't drank alcohol for a number of years I don't see anything wrong with somebody calling themselves an ex alcoholic just like other addicts call themselves ex smokers, ex drug addicts etc. Also my local addiction team doesn't label people as alcoholics. each to their own.

Originally Posted by joedris

I do agree with you on the point of AA nazis and the isms mentality. It's unfortunate but a lot of the old timers in AA have a simplistic attitude of one size fits all. They're going to do things because that's the way they were taught. One thing I've learned over the years is that alcoholism affects everyone differently, and each alcoholic who walks through the doors is a unique individual with unique problems. It's sad that the nazi mentality turns so many people away. I guess I was lucky as my initial exposure had a good impression on me. I could have easily walked away disgusted, too.

Its not just so called AA nazis share this view its most of the kind people in AA aswell. Who taught the old timers you talk about where are they getting their ideas from. The Big book. That's the problem, not the people in AA but the big book.
If I actually believed everything in the big book I would share the exact same views as them, fortunately I don't.