Addicts in AA

[tk1fry]

I am wondering what everyone's thoughts are on AA in regard to addicts. There seems to be some animosity (may be too strong of a word) towards addicts from AA members. My Rehab would take us to AA meetings and I remember hearing wispers from AA members that we shouldn't be there, and that it was no place for addicts. NA seems to be totaly inclusive and am wondering why AA is not (at least thats my perception). I think that everybody can agree that alcohol is a drug. And I've seen it on SR a little also.

For a long time I thought I was unique, I was a better drinker, I had rules. Now, I see myself (as an alcoholic) the same as any addict. Although I have had my beefs with AA, I like their meetings a little better than the NA meetings in my area. That doesn't mean i don't go to NA, I'm going to one tonight.

I also know people who are in SA and go to AA, but they won't tell anybody that they are in SA for fear of retribution.

What do you guys (I use that in the nongender sense) think.



PS. I really like Father Martin's speech on how if you take the water out of alcohol you get ether or a similar form.

[Pinkcuda]

Alcohol may be a drug, but drugs are not alcohol.

[MrsMagoo]

My AH prefers AA. Always has. He says NA covers ALOT of drugs and can get "watered down or off topic". He also just told me, and I find this interesting, that all his drug use, FOLLOWED the reintroduction of alcohol in his life. Basically, the urge to use drugs was not there unless he was off the wagon. I heard a guy at a Celebrate Recovery meeting say the same thing. I think you need to be wherever you feel comforatable. I know that when my AH speaks, he touches on the drug addiction but doesn't get into great detail (but definately acknowledges it as a huge problem) like he does when he's speaking about his drinking.

[Sugah]

In my personal experience, I have found that the two fellowships use a different word to describe the same condition. In AA, we call it alcoholism, and in NA, we call it addiction. For a long time, I dual-identified no matter which room I was in ("I'm an alcoholic and an addict" or vice versa), and eventually came to realize that it did not hurt me, was not dishonest, to just use the term preferred by each respective fellowship. Therefore, in AA, I introduce myself as an alcoholic and in NA, I introduce myself as an addict, even though I know I'm talking about the same thing. It's become a matter of respecting each fellowship.

I know the question didn't have to do with identification, but I felt it necessary to qualify my position before offering a response. As long as I see the need for and can take the first step in each fellowship, I belong there. If I'm an alcoholic who thinks drugs are not a problem, or an addict who thinks I don't have a real or potential problem with booze, then I'm unlikely to have any understanding of what lies below my symptoms. Maybe I'll come to realize it, or maybe I'll have to learn the hard way.

I know from experience that "both" drugs "and" alcohol are a problem for me, but I've never done mushrooms (psilocybin). Does that mean that I don't entirely qualify for NA if I don't know for certain that mushrooms aren't a problem? Throw them all in the same pot and find where you feel most comfortable. For me, that's AA. Some prefer a little of both.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Freedom1990]

I qualify for AA/NA both. In my small town, NA has never been successful long-term. In my limited experience with NA, I've seen more solid recovery in AA than NA. That being said, our AA group is very open-minded when it comes to addicts.

Several of us are addict/alcoholics in my AA group. I do introduce myself as alcoholic out of respect for the fellowship.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by tk1fry

I am wondering what everyone's thoughts are on AA in regard to addicts.

I see that you are new, so... welcome! Hope you land somewhere and get recovered and become a spiritual giant wherever you stand!

I think addicts are fine to come to open AA meetings and are free to listen and/or share so long as they are coming from the place of the AA 3rd Tradition Long Form: Our experience has taught us that... "...ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism....Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group..."

That's it. The short limp-form states that all you need is a "desire to stop drinking"... wink wink! Nudge Nudge. So just go in there with that attitude and you're in. And if you have an experience with alcohol/alcoholism and/or the recovery thereof, you can even share your ESH!

It's not that AA is trying to be exclusive or anything; they just don't have big egos about it. They can't be everything to everybody. Singleness of Purpose. Alkies work with alkies. Gamblers with gamblers. Cocaine addicts with cocaine addicts, etc.

Originally Posted by tk1fry

There seems to be some animosity (may be too strong of a word) towards addicts from AA members...

And where would this animosity have taken place? At the treatment center? Or did you go down to the AA meeting?

Originally Posted by tk1fry

My Rehab would take us to AA meetings and I remember hearing wispers from AA members that we shouldn't be there, and that it was no place for addicts. NA seems to be totaly inclusive and am wondering why AA is not (at least thats my perception).

Well... this may come as a big shocker to you, but your counselors in that treatment center are not the know-all be-all of alcohol recovery. They are part of an "alcoholism" industry. They will probably have no problem labeling you an alcoholic and a drug addict right off the bat. They may or may not give you the dignity to find your own truth in all of this. But due to AAs own traditions, they have nothing to say about this. It's an "outside" issue. I say, as in IMO, it's up to you to decide for yourself what you are and whether or not you're gonna go to AA/NA/CA/etc. and whether or not you're gonna do 12-step work. The treatment center can do a lot to help you get physically rested and teach you a thing or two about brain chemistry and theory, but the folks in AA know 2 things; how to help an alky see their truth in their 1st step (are you an alky or not?) and how to get recovered and stay sober. ( you can mind-bate the 24 hours day at a time program all you wish, AA has a better plan).

So addicts really don't belong in an AA meeting unless they're alcoholics too. If you're an addict, why wouldn't you support your own meetings? If everybody just comes to AA, how will CA, NA, GA, etc. grow?

Originally Posted by tk1fry

NA seems to be totaly inclusive and am wondering why AA is not (at least thats my perception).

Yes they are and no AA is not. Your perception is correct. It's the Traditions. Good AA meetings follow the Traditions. You can probably find some bad AA meetings that don't and you may enjoy that. The magic of AA is one alcoholic sitting down talking to another alcoholic. I suppose the same should hold true for two addicts, meth users, cocaine users, smot pokers er- pot smokers, etc.

Originally Posted by tk1fry

I think that everybody can agree that alcohol is a drug. And I've seen it on SR a little also...

Absolutely not. Here's one dude that will always fight that concept. Alcohol is alcohol. Drugs are drugs. I'm an alcoholic, but I'm not an addict. I choose to not do drugs. But I have to go to AA and do steps and go to meetings and help others and pray to and develop a friendship and relationship with God and... to stay sober.

Originally Posted by tk1fry

Although I have had my beefs with AA, I like their meetings a little better than the NA meetings in my area. That doesn't mean i don't go to NA, I'm going to one tonight.

That's too bad. I hope you can change that. Keep going to meetings and do the deal! Get recovered! Attract, don't promote! A fellowship is sure to grow up about you! Pray for it! Demand it!

Originally Posted by tk1fry

I also know people who are in SA and go to AA, but they won't tell anybody that they are in SA for fear of retribution.

Add: SA? I thought you meant SR, as in SoberRecovery. What's SA? Sex Addicts? Wow! There's a can of worms. If you're a convicted thief or sex-offender, they tear up your alcohol/drug card and drug test you for compliance. I hope to heck the judges aren't sending them to AA too to get papers signed.

Originally Posted by tk1fry

PS. I really like Father Martin's speech on how if you take the water out of alcohol you get ether or a similar form.

Perfect example of the fact that alkies are different than non-alkies anyway.

Drink alcohol and you will get a buzz. I don't care who you are. Men and women drink essentially because they like the effects produced by alcohol. But I metabolize it different than the non-alkies.

[Lily]

Tkfry1

You go whereever you feel the most comfortable. I personally am an addict and alcoholic and prefer AA after having tried NA for a year. I was an alcoholic first, and lastly was caught up in prescription drugs. I do not feel as if I am a fraud.

In as far as who works with who, my sponsor is an alcoholic addict who attends AA. When I was in NA I worked with an addict sponsor who never drank and did not have the same DOC as me. (Drug of choice)

Go where you will get your recovery, but out of respect for the group, introduce yourself appropriately in fellowship.

Welcome!

[freya]

I totally agree with Lily: your recovery must be your #1 priority, so you figure out what works for and is comfortable for you and you do it.

I personally have found it to be true that there are rigid hardliners in every 12 Step fellowship. But, around where I live at least, there are lots and lots of meetings, and I don't have to attend the (very few) meetings where those people seem to hold sway -- nor am I interested in doing so.

The thing is, in every fellowship, each meeting is slightly different from every other, and each meeting interprets the Traditions in accordance with its own group conscience, with the guidance of HP. And I do believe that it is very important for anyone who attends a meeting to respect the group conscience decisions of that meeting while at that meeting. So, it would probably be a good idea for you to attend as many different meetings as you can, get the feel of them, ask some people you like and trust for referrals to meetings where people are not going to try to make your dual addiction into an issue, and just figure out what works for and feels right for you.

...and I know that this next bit is very hard for a newcomer but it's also very important: In the meantime, if you happen to encounter rigid hardliners who are less than open and welcoming to you, just remember that their issues are their issues, not yours, and try not to take them personally.

Also, here's a link to a thread from last fall about this same topic:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post1876673 (Is There a Difference?)

Good luck!

freya

[littlefish]

In the various AA rooms I've been in I've often seen people present themselves as both: alcoholic and addict. I haven't seen any negative reaction to that. On the other hand, it seems logical that if someone presented themself as a drug addict in AA, someone might mention that they would get more help in NA.
Maybe the "whispering" you picked up on was not meant in a negative way such as "you don't belong here" but rather along the lines of maybe people felt you might have your needs served better in NA?

[jimhere]

The Twelve Steps will work for any problem, provided they are grounded in truth. The fellowships necessarily won't.

I've worked with addicts taking them through the steps on the condition that they take their recovery to the fellowship that they can be the most useful in, namely Narcotics Anonymous.

An addict may attend an open AA meeting, but let's not mislead him/her into believing that they are AA members. I see this happen and it causes great harm, both to the addict and to the AA group and to AA as a whole.
Jim

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by littlefish

In the various AA rooms I've been in I've often seen people present themselves as both...

Some people call them anda's. I call them confused on their first step.

You can be both. At least that's what I hear. If I was both, I'd be an alcoholic in AA and an addict in NA. I'd go to both. But I'm not an addict.

I'm looking for an AZ meeting. That's everything between A and Z. I'd call it;

Adult Bad Children of Dysfunctional Evil Families Getting Hooked Into Just Keeping Little Mean Nasty Old People Quiet Requiring Stupendous Tenacity Utilizing Vociferousness With eXtremely Youthful Zeal.

Now that would be the recovery meeting to end all recovery meetings.

What do you think of the people in an AA meeting who AREN'T addicts? Or do you? If you start talking about your DOC-LOLERSKATES!!!- you're gonna have them think you're speaking a foreign language. Then they're gonna want to go find a new AA meeting. Why not just start your own?

Originally Posted by littlefish

Maybe the "whispering" you picked up on was not meant in a negative way such as "you don't belong here" but rather along the lines of maybe people felt you might have your needs served better in NA?

Or maybe they're thinking, "They are destroying our meeting here. Why don't they go and find their own meeting? Now we're gonna have to close this meeting and/or go underground."

I can guarantee you this; we don't whisper in our meeting. It's in our group conscience and it's even tougher than the blue card:

"This is a closed meeting for alcoholics. We ask that you please introduce yourself as Alcoholic only."

Look here: The Blue Card

The closed meeting is for alcoholics only. The AA open meeting can include non-alcoholics, but only alkies can share. And no, it was never ever intended for the addict! It was intended to let the alanon, perhaps the "better half" of the recovered alky to show up!

These "hard liners" as you call them have no problem whatsoever. Get your own meeting! Get your own conference! Get your own Central Office! Quit piggybacking off of AA! Then maybe, just maybe, you'll get God of your understanding and recover!

[meditation]

I have gone to AA but seriously have no clue about alcohol. I just don't understand it and they don't understand addicts at least in the AA's around here. The closest I can imagine is that alcohol could be dehydrated into a pill form and thus be a drug. The compulsion to use both alcohol and drugs comes from the same mindset and I get that. But as an addict I have not been overly welcomed in AA and I introduce myself as an (Anda) but the mindset I found drove me over to NA.
I have a hard time in NA also as I never used street drugs and most of the stories ESH are around hard living street life and I really can't relate to that. There seems to be really no place that works for me truly. I go to both meetings still but I have never really found my comfort zone in either. I wish there was something.
I am staying clean and feel completely free of any obession to use despite the meeting situation and I do thank my HP for that--- I've got a good recovery program that really doesn't rely entirely on meetings or I'd be in trouble. Despite going to a meeting daily for the last 6 months or so my recovery is not dependent on meetings. It's what is between myself and my HP.

I wish it was a different situation sometimes that I could relate more to the meetings but each person's recovery I think is personal and what works for each person is to me the path to serenity.

[McGowdog]

That sounds tough.

I not only believe in working the steps out of the book, but have to belong to a healthy group. But if I didn't have a healthy group, surely there's that one guy somewhere... that has the charisma... that "I want what he has" type recovery... that is similar enough to you. A mentor, so to speak. And if you're far enough along in the steps, how about finding someone else to work with? Maybe you could help someone like you through the steps.

That's what this whole paradox of life is about anyway, isn't it? Getting out of our own head's just long enough for God to come in and help us?

I live in a big enough town that I can choose which meetings to go to and which ones not to. I dog loose meetings. But hey, they must be doing good work. I see people in there that have been sober and/or clean for something like 15+ years! I can't do what they do, but I like to go to those meetings from time to time. No pressure on me. I don't have to impress them with my "wonderful program" or my "superior knowledge of the steps!" I can just go, listen for 55 minutes and talk for 3 to 5, maybe have a chat with the new man after the meeting.

If I want to send him running away from me, all I have to do is invite him to my hard-core meeting. When they say, "Oh, yes! I promise. I'll so be there next Monday!" then I know they'll disappear for good.

We have a meeting in Pueblo where they announce, "we do not discriminate against the addict or the alanon. You don't have to be an alcoholic to share last or first." But they are listed as an AA meeting. According to them, we discriminate! But that's ok too. Tradition 4 saves us both.

I go there because that's one place I'll find some new comers from the treatment centers. I kind of wait and see which ones come back for at least their second meeting. After most newcomers say, "This is my first AA meeting", then at the end of the meeting, about 90% of the group smothers the guy and runs him off. I sit back a bit and look for the guy who smells like puke... the guy who nobody else wants to talk to. Thanks to treatment centers, we don't see those guys as much. Once in a great while.

But it's a shame, the other 12-steps aren't as well represented perhaps. I suspect it's because most of them are in AA meetings and refuse to go to those "other" meetings.

I'd like to learn more about recovered/recovering meth addicts myself. I've got a nephew and a cousin who've been through or are imprisoned because of it. I'd like to know where I can send the addict to get the best help.

I know there's animosity between AA and ?A. I fault the local treatment centers for this, mostly. They are trying to prepare them for a world that does not and may never exist, IMO.

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I'd like to learn more about recovered/recovering meth addicts myself. I've got a nephew and a cousin who've been through or are imprisoned because of it. I'd like to know where I can send the addict to get the best help.

I'm a recovered meth addict, but also a recovered alcoholic. My foundation for recovery has been through AA over the years. My EXAH was also a meth addict and was buried three years ago. He went back to using straight out of rehab. He also did three stints in the penitentiary during his life, all related to crimes committed while he was using.

[McGowdog]

Wow! How do you recover from meth? Isn't that like 5000 times more deadly than booze?

My nephew was supposedly spun out and awake for about 8 days straight, went down to the 7-11 to get some smokes, supposedly, stole some lady's purse and drove off, she came and tried to take it back and he drove off... dragging her down the road. She was flight-for-lifed to the hospital and will live. He's headed BACK to prison and wants to fight everybody. He threatened to kill me.

So they use meth in prison? That's gotta be hell.

[Pinkcuda]

Tradition one states that our common welfare must come first. The traditions were written as a direct result of the demise of the Washingtonians. The traditions were intended to preserve the integrity of AA. Therefore Tradition One emphasises that the traditions are more important than the steps. If I fail, I fail. If AA fails, we all fail.
Therefore I will not take the liberty of interpreting the traditions as I see fit. 3rd Tradition, long form, states that our membership should include all those suffering from alcoholism.
The minute I feel I can change any tradition so suit my wishes I grant myself a license to change the steps to suit my wishes. We've all seen those that work the program "Their Way" and we've seen what happens to them.
That's just me. Let's see what Bill says about it.
bill wilson singleness of purpose - Google Video

[McGowdog]

I hear ya, Pink. I guess you could say I go to meetings that break traditions.

But I understand that up front. I'm sort of trying to quietly "attract" them, not "promote" them, to my meeting when I think they might be a real alcoholic and might want to do something about it.

In the meantime, I'm gonna wish the addict well too.

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Wow! How do you recover from meth? Isn't that like 5000 times more deadly than booze?

My nephew was supposedly spun out and awake for about 8 days straight, went down to the 7-11 to get some smokes, supposedly, stole some lady's purse and drove off, she came and tried to take it back and he drove off... dragging her down the road. She was flight-for-lifed to the hospital and will live. He's headed BACK to prison and wants to fight everybody. He threatened to kill me.

So they use meth in prison? That's gotta be hell.

It's a very ugly drug for sure. I'm 6' tall and when I was taken to rehab, I weighed 109 pounds, was pregnant, had blown out all the veins in my arms.

Meth-induced psychosis isn't pretty. There was always a loaded shotgun in the corner by the front door. I have no idea how I never got my head blown off. EXAH always stayed up longer on the crap than I did-I think his record was about two weeks. That's when 'they' were out to get him.

He beat me on a daily basis when he wasn't gone on one of his drug runs with his drug buddies. When he mixed whiskey and meth, he was even more violent.

I consider myself incredibly blessed to be alive and clean/sober.

[Pinkcuda]

I had no idea that Meth made you taller.

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

I had no idea that Meth made you taller.

???? Where did that come from?

[Pinkcuda]

Originally Posted by Freedom1990

???? Where did that come from?

From here!

I'm 6' tall and when I was taken to rehab

Joke. Not a good joke but it was the best I could do.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

I had no idea that Meth made you taller.

Well I bet it makes you feel taller. Ezra Brooke made me feel 7'4". I was a 7'4" Charles Manson with a toothache.

Freedom, when you're saying EXAH, I at first thought you were saying ExperienceStrengthAndHope, kinda like we call our SO our Higher Power... Now I think you're saying Ex -A Orifice. Is that right?

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Well I bet it makes you feel taller. Ezra Brooke made me feel 7'4". I was a 7'4" Charles Manson with a toothache.

Freedom, when you're saying EXAH, I at first thought you were saying ExperienceStrengthAndHope, kinda like we call our SO our Higher Power... Now I think you're saying Ex -A Orifice. Is that right?

Ex addict husband, Ex a orifice, they are interchangable!

I was bulletproof for many years, don't know about taller.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by Freedom1990

they are interchangable!

=)

[21stars]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

Alcohol may be a drug, but drugs are not alcohol.

Right; but addiciton is addiction no matter what you do. Drinking two 6packs every night; shovling cocaine up your nose everyday; poppin' pills at home; shooting heroin; or a mixture of a few different substances; etc,,,,,, It is all the same issue. It's all addiction. There shouldn't be an imaginary gap made between any of them. I totally agree and understand what tk1fry is saying here. Sure we all have differant needs but the idea of sobriety is the same.