Resources: Sex in Recovery

[freya]

Hi, everyone!

I was just asked to lead a workshop on "Sex in Recovery" at a "Women in AA and Al Anon" conference the is going to happen in June. I've done sharings and short talks on this topic for program related-events before, but this is going to be a little different, as it is supposed to actually be a workshop and we (workshop leaders) are supposed to have activities/readings/exercises/whatever to encourage everyone to participate more actively.

So, I am basically soliciting input from AA and Al Anon SR members to try to get some ideas. If you have specific "favorite" program readings on this topic, or even readings not explicitly on this topic that you have found to be very helpful/relevant to the topic...or if you can think of any particular aspects of this topic that you believe would be especially important/helpful or that, in your experience, too often go unaddressed in the rooms, or just whatever seems relevant and important to you, I'd really appreciate it if you'd share that here.

Thanks in advance -- freya

[Missybuns]

Is that considered cooperation between the two fellowships? I didnt know they mixed like that.

I understand sex to be an outside issue. Maybe not if sex leads to alcohol...however for me it was the other way around.

I am personally a member of NA and sex is an outside issue if considering the tenth tradition.

NA adopted their Traditions from AA...and the tenth tradition helps to us to carry out the 5th tradition, which is to carry out our (one) primary purpose.

From a personal standpoint, my sexual behaviors were/are written about in my 4th step work and discussed with my sponsor.

I am interested in the replies to this thread, I hope to learn something.

Peace,
Missy

[Freedom1990]

What a great idea, Freya. I'll see if I have anything I can dig up for you.

[laurie6781]

Missybuns I don't believe "Sex" is an 'outside issue' as the discussion of it starts at the bottom of page 68 in the BB of AA and continues on page 69. There might be some quotes in there you can use Freya.

I think the conference is a GREAT idea since many of us are now Double Winners, attending both AA or NA and AlAnon or NarAnon.

Hope you have a great conference.

Love and hugs,

[Anna]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder that these forums are public and can be read by children.

If you would like to discuss anything in detail, it might be a good idea to use PMs.

Freya, good luck with your workshop.

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by laurie6781

Missybuns I don't believe "Sex" is an 'outside issue' as the discussion of it starts at the bottom of page 68 in the BB of AA and continues on page 69. There might be some quotes in there you can use Freya.

It's also briefly discussed in "The Family Afterward" at the very end of the chapter.

[freya]

Originally Posted by Missybuns

Is that considered cooperation between the two fellowships? I didnt know they mixed like that.

I understand sex to be an outside issue. Maybe not if sex leads to alcohol...however for me it was the other way around.

I am personally a member of NA and sex is an outside issue if considering the tenth tradition.

NA adopted their Traditions from AA...and the tenth tradition helps to us to carry out the 5th tradition, which is to carry out our (one) primary purpose.

From a personal standpoint, my sexual behaviors were/are written about in my 4th step work and discussed with my sponsor.

I am interested in the replies to this thread, I hope to learn something.

Peace,
Missy

Well, you know, I think that all depends on how rigidly you interpret to whole "outside issue" thing. Obviously, the women who are putting on this conference are not rigid about it. My personal experience with the "outside issue" issue is that people/groups interpret it as they need to based on what they can and/or want to handle and deal with in the context of their recovery at any given time. Also, for me personally, the people whose recoveries I admire the most and the people whom I usually seek out for help/feedback/whatever with my program are the people who interpret it very widely and whose recoveries have permeated and transformed every area of their lives.

As far as Al Anon goes, since the focus of the program is the way alcoholism affects relationships, it seems to me like sex would fall well within that purpose. And as others have already pointed out, the Big Book does explicitly list sex relations as one of the major inventory areas, which, I doubt would be the case if it was an issue unrelated to recovery.

But, really, that's not the point here. The point here is that this conference is happening and I am going to be doing this workshop, so if anyone has anything to share relevant to literature (AA or Al Anon) or anything else program-related that has been helpful and/or influential to them in realtion to this topic, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

-- and I'm not looking for intimate details here; this is not going to be like sex-therapy or anything for heaven's sake!!!!

Also, for anyone who finds it irrelevant to their own recovery, or in violation of their program to discuss/think about it in relation to their program, or just too uncomfortable to contemplate for whatever reason, then maybe the best/most effectice/least troubling thing for that person to do would be to start another thread to deal with whatever his/her own issue is around this topic.

freya

[nelco]

Hi Freya,

Are you talking about sex "the act" or sexuality in general?? I just feel its such a huge area. My ability to respect myself sexually is important especially in recovery. I suppose many of us would have been involved in sexual codependency. some of us may have shut down sexually.... That part of me certainly also needed to heal and become a part of the rest of me. I needed to lose a lot of hang ups, and mixed messages I had gotton growing up about sex. It was all just another part of recovery and healing for me.

[Mark75]

Hey... I am glad to see you are doing this... The big book discusses the sex and recovery thing...

Well, I know that this program is aimed at women, but my recovery certainly has affected intimacy for my wife and I on several levels... Let's face it, alcohol disinhibits us... So I am recovering, but my wife is effected too!!

I don't know if I have anything to share "relevant to the literature". PM me if you have any questions specifically. I am 6 months clean and sober. My wife and I are happily, , married 25 years.

Mark

[Freedom1990]

I was thinking about this earlier, and I used to 'compartmentalize' my life, that is, I'd work a program of recovery in some areas of my life, but not others, especially early on.

As time went on, and I began to see where there was still a lot of unmanageability, I began to understand what people meant when they said it was easy to work the program within the rooms of 12 step meetings, but a challenge once they walked out.

Honesty, openmindedness, and willingness-I need to practice that in all areas of my life.

[freya]

Originally Posted by nelco

Hi Freya,

Are you talking about sex "the act" or sexuality in general?? I just feel its such a huge area. My ability to respect myself sexually is important especially in recovery. I suppose many of us would have been involved in sexual codependency. some of us may have shut down sexually.... That part of me certainly also needed to heal and become a part of the rest of me. I needed to lose a lot of hang ups, and mixed messages I had gotton growing up about sex. It was all just another part of recovery and healing for me.

I guess, probably, the emphasis will need to be upon what constiutes "healthy" sexuality in general. Defintely not specifics of "the act," as you put it!!!!! (That would be a little awkward, even for me, in front of a bunch of -- probably -- mostly straight women I have never even met before!!!) I think, in general, the idea is that, obviously, the negative effects of alcoholism -- on one's self-esteem, one's self-awareness, and one's relationships -- have most likely seriously impacted one's ability to relate healthily in this most intimate of ways...so, given all of that, what does it mean, what does it take, and how does it look for one to begin to repair that damage and begin to relate healthily -- both with oneself and one's own sexualilty and with a partner -- in this regard.

freya

[Freedom1990]

Freya, I think I'll probably do some lengthy writing on that and email that to you if you think that would help.

[freya]

Freedom: If you are willing to take the time to do that, that would be awesome!

freya

[freya]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

Hey... I am glad to see you are doing this... The big book discusses the sex and recovery thing...

Well, I know that this program is aimed at women, but my recovery certainly has affected intimacy for my wife and I on several levels... Let's face it, alcohol disinhibits us... So I am recovering, but my wife is effected too!!

I don't know if I have anything to share "relevant to the literature". PM me if you have any questions specifically. I am 6 months clean and sober. My wife and I are happily, , married 25 years.

Mark

You know, I'm really glad you brought this up because, when I personally think about this topic I (coming more from the Al Anon perspective) tend to focus on how active alcoholism basically kills any interest I might have in being sexual with the alcoholic -- I don't tend to think so much about the fact that, for many people (and not just alcoholics) alcohol acutally makes it easier for them to be sexual (talking only about desire here, of course, not necessarily performance! LOL!)....I've got to remember to address that other side of it, too.....

...and, now that I'm thinking about it, I have heard many, many people say that, without the lack of inhibition provided by the alcohol, sex is really pretty scary and intimidating for them.....I think maybe I need to recruit a woman from the AA side of this to help me out with this workshop.....

Thanks,
freya

[nelco]

Defintely not specifics of "the act," as you put it!!!!! (That would be a little awkward, even for me, in front of a bunch of -- probably -- mostly straight women I have never even met before!!!)

LOL !!!

...

and, now that I'm thinking about it, I have heard many, many people say that, without the lack of inhibition provided by the alcohol, sex is really pretty scary and intimidating for them.....I think maybe I need to recruit a woman from the AA side of this to help me out with this workshop.....

i think this is a good idea..

[kj3880]

I'm interested in what aspects you will choose to focus on in your workshop, which I would bet will be among the best-attended at that conference!!! It will be standing room only!

If I were going to give this talk, I would be interested in sexual ethics and sexual fidelity. For instance, many but not all of us do work on cheating as a character defect or wrong during our steps. And what about sex outside of a committed relationship? And what about sex with others in recovery? How much, if any, responsibility do we bear for the recovery or relapse of a chosen sexual partner in the fellowship? Is this something we should carefully consider before a "hook-up" or is it each person's own look-out???

As you can see, I don't have a lot of answers, but I sure do have questions...I would love to hear this talk!!!

Love,
KJ

[freya]

Originally Posted by kj3880

And what about sex with others in recovery? How much, if any, responsibility do we bear for the recovery or relapse of a chosen sexual partner in the fellowship? Is this something we should carefully consider before a "hook-up" or is it each person's own look-out???
Love,
KJ

This is an interesting question -- mainly because, in my experience in the rooms in general, it is pretty stongly believed that no one is responsible for another's recovery or for another's relapse -- Why would it be any different when it comes to sex? Now, I'm not condoning sexual irresponsibility here -- because obviously we are each responsible for our own choices and our own behavior and if we hurt another out of care-lessness or selfishness (as related to sex or to anything else) that is on us -- but, still, that is not the same as saying that, if we hurt another, we are repsonsible for that other's relapse.

freya

[freya]

Originally Posted by kj3880

I'm interested in what aspects you will choose to focus on in your workshop, which I would bet will be among the best-attended at that conference!!! It will be standing room only!
Love,
KJ

As I've said, I've done this before but always more in the typical program "sharing my ES&H" format....which is, obviously, easier in a lot of ways. But, I think, basically, my focus, with any kind of program work, is always the same: trying to offer what I have to give in the hope of helping people figure out and feel good about who they -- in their healthy, considered, connected-to-HP recovery selves -- are, what they want, and how they can best go about manifesting that in their lives. I don't have a particular "agenda" or "ethics" above and beyond that.....I mean, I have my own personal ethics and agenda that I try to follow in my own life...but, especially on this topic, that is not really something that I would try to "put on" anyone else...Mainly because it's based in an upbringing and life experience that is way too different from that with which most women in this culture have grown up and have to deal with.

And actually, that's kind of a double-edged sword when it comes to "sex" as a topic, because the reason I can do this and the reason I get asked to do it rather often is because I'm willing and able and don't have a lot of inhibitions or baggage around it, but, at the same time, that makes my experience and my attitudes rather significantly different from a lot of women's.

....but, that's OK, I don't have to have all the answers, I just have to go where I am lead, right? .....and, truthfully, everytime I've "talked" about this in a program context before, I've gotten really amazing and very touching responses, even from some pretty surpirsing sources...So, it's been good...

freya

[kj3880]

Originally Posted by freya

This is an interesting question -- mainly because, in my experience in the rooms in general, it is pretty stongly believed that no one is responsible for another's recovery or for another's relapse -- Why would it be any different when it comes to sex? Now, I'm not condoning sexual irresponsibility here -- because obviously we are each responsible for our own choices and our own behavior and if we hurt another out of care-lessness or selfishness (as related to sex or to anything else) that is on us -- but, still, that is not the same as saying that, if we hurt another, we are repsonsible for that other's relapse.freya

Yes that is true, we are always resposible for our own recovery. I've heard a lot of people say to leave the newcomer alone for at least a year to give them a chance to get started without the confusion and shame that can come from a liaison gone wrong, and I agree with that. After all, if you are well-established in your own program, why would you even want to have that type of relationship with someone who is still so sick?

But if two people are not newcomers, then I guess it's fair to "get physical." I think it is weird in this society how a lot of people are decent and ethical in every aspect of their life, except the way they treat their sexual partners. As if this way of relating to others is exempt from the social responsibility that other ways of relating carry. I've seen people do things to those that they date that they wouldn't even consider doing to any other types of friends. And even brag about their behavior. I guess that is where the saying "All's fair in love and war." comes from, and I don't like it. Know what I mean?

KJ

[Missybuns]

68 in the BB of AA and continues on page 69.

It's also briefly discussed in "The Family Afterward" at the very end of the chapter.

cool thanks! I have a Big Book but don't know it that closely

I am appreciating all these replies. I didn't know there was such a broad range of mixing fellowships, however I do know of one retreat that is sponsored by AA and almost our entire fellowship of NA attends it ( and these women do not go to AA meetings).

I have in the past attended workshops at NA conventions to do with sexual involvement and they seem to be controversial.

I am always looking to learn more,
Missy

[Dime]

I am more of the camp that adults should be responsible adults period. We should not try to take advantage of others whether it be sexual, money or whatever.

I know that some of the very best relationships of couples within AA formed while one or both of the couple was in early sobriety. Some of these folks are now married, have children and have some of the closest relationships I have ever seen and did not wind up going out.

[Missybuns]

Originally Posted by Dime

I am more of the camp that adults should be responsible adults period. We should not try to take advantage of others whether it be sexual, money or whatever.

I agree.

[Pinkcuda]

The book specifically says that God alone can judge our sex situations. Knowing that, I tell people that they are on their own. When I get a blank stare, I refer them to Step 3.

[freya]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

The book specifically says that God alone can judge our sex situations. Knowing that, I tell people that they are on their own. When I get a blank stare, I refer them to Step 3.

Pink: Not sure exactly where you got the idea that anyone was judging or even talking about judging anyone's sexual behaivor. I haven't seen anyone do that, or even imply that, on this thread...and it is most certainly not the point of the workshop in any way. Sure, HP is, ultimately, the only judge of anything....but if I want to live my life in accoradnce with H's will for me, then it kinda does behoove me to take a good look at my behavior (around sex and/or anything else) and make some judgments about that myself based on what I perceive to be HP's will for me.

Also, as far as Step 3 goes (Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.), maybe you could develop the point you are trying to make a little more in relation to the topic of this thread? I mean, Step 3 is about making the decision; that's necessary and that's great, but unless one goes on to actually implement the decision in some meaningful way, it's really not worth a hill of beans. I mean, yeah, God can move mountains, but, in my experience, He's really not at all likely to do so unless I at least show up in the near vicinity of the mountain carrying a shovel.....LOL!!!...

.......So, the question here for this thread is more about what constitutes and what might be helpful for people in relation to this topic as far as their getting to the mountain with a shovel goes....

freya

[kj3880]

That is exactly what I mean, Freya. Sexual behavior is not outside of recovery. Recovery, IMO, is about every aspect of our lives. Because our relationship with our higher power, if we choose to have one, touches everything we do.

Sexual behavior is just like any other behavior in recovery. If we want to change, then we have to change our disfunctional (by this term, I mean it doesn't work) behavior. Even and especially sexual. That's why conferences and conventions do address sexuality. It isn't a separate topic from recovery. I addressed it in my step work extensively with my sponsor.

Many of us acted out and continue to act out in sexual ways. If we leave holes of ill behavior in our recovery life, then we leave a place for the disease to function against us.

If we use others for our sexual gratification without regard to their feelings, using people like objects, then how have we changed? We are supposed to learn in recovery to use things and love people, not to use people and love things. It's not about anyone judging others' sexual behavior, Pink. It's about us evaluating our own behavior and changing what distances us from our higher power. Sometimes I need to talk to others in recovery to work these things out. A conference or a sponsor can be helpful in this regard. I hope my sponsor and my network doesn't leave me "on my own" on the issue of my sexual behavior. Because look where my own thinking got me. That's why I need a network and a sponsor. I can't, we can!

Love,
KJ