Addicted to Recovery?

[whiskerkissed]

This was a joking remark in another thread...but it made me think a minute. How many people actually become addicted to the recovery process through interactive mediums such as SR, NA, AA and all the other acronyms? I mean...where else is there a whole community of people who have been (or still are) right where you are? You have someone to encourage you. To talk freely about society's "better left unspoken" subjects. To stand behind you. To offer support through your recovery. Then...you are at a point where you no longer have that because you now have clean time. That same level of support isn't there anymore. No one "cares" as much as they seemed to in your moment of need. So some may relapse to get that back? Deep loneliness could drive that, but I would hope with a good process where "to keep it you must give it away" would take over and generate a balance in that mind-thought.

People relapse. Addicts relapse. This is such a common problem...and one we can't ignore. Picking yourself up, dusting yourself off and starting again is part of the process. For people to tell you to do that is part of the process. Support is necessary and critical. But...are there those out there that do this just for that care and understanding?

That would really suck being addicted to the recovery process itself.

[Peter]

Hmmmm....interesting thought.....

I have heard people use the "addcted to recovery" term before, but this is usually in the sense that one is "addicted to meeting attendance".

I have never really heard it suggested that a person could be "addicted to the empathy and attention" that a newcomer may get.....sorta like an addict version of Munchausen Syndrome . I hope I am understanding you so far ?.

First of all in my opinion a "chronic relapser" is not recovering. A chronic relapser is merely between drunks. "Recovery" means to get back what was lost and this includes our ability to make healthy choices about our life. If we keep returning to drinking when we know drinking is harming us then it means we still have not "recovered" our ability to make healthy choices.

If people are "relapsing" for the attention they think they could be getting i suppose i could understand that, but i could in no way even remotely regard this as recovery.

My understanding of addiction is: "Any mind or mood altering experience with life damaging consequences". Many of us can and do use ordinarily innocent looking activities and behaviours to escape the realities of life (and this can include even "recovery" related activity) but if we are using some other activity or experience at the expense of our health , job,education relationships, family, or household then we may at the very least be romping around in addiction territory.

[dancinggirl]

I found that people in the AA meetings I've gone to run the gambit from still drinking to people that haven't touched the stuff in over 30 years. I wondered about those 30+ years people....why are they still coming?! It's almost like they're addicted to the meetings and are using them as their social life! Or addicted to the attention they get as the "old-timers" who know the answers.

[freya]

From what I can tell, it's probably more accurate to say that people become addicted to certain things associated with recovery programs -- like meetings, and aspects of the fellowship part of it, and being around lots of people with lots of self-destructive behaviors and dysfunctional drama going on in their lives. This isn't exactly the same thing as being "addicted to recovery," in my opinion, because, technically, if one were really working one's recovery in a healthy, positive, and effective way that would logically exclude the possibility that one could be "addicted" to it.

For example, there is a person I know very well (because she is a relative, not because I voluntarily spend a lot of time with her), who has been "dry" and very active -- socially -- in AA for almost 15 years. Aside from the drinking, however, her behavior remains just as self-destructive and manipulative as it has always been, and I would be hard pressed to name an active A who I could honestly say is any more self-centered than she is. This person literally risks her life to get to meetings -- she is disabled and once my partner and I had to go over to her house in sub-zero weather to pick her up out of her snow-covered driveway because she tried to go out to a meeting even though it was clearly (to any sane person) life-threatening for her to be doing so. (Now this person lives in a city where there are close to 400 meetings a week, so it's not like if she missed this one due to the terrible weather, she wouldn't get to another one in a week and her sobriety -- such as it is -- would be in serious peril!)

She also is full of AA gossip and criticism of everyone and every meeting -- she can and does talk about it endlessly and tends to hang-out with other 12 Step people who do the same. She has had many sponsors -- and fires any good one in 3-6 months. She let slip accidentally a few months ago, that she has never made it to working Step 4.

She is by no means the only person I know "in recovery" who "works" this kind of distorted program. It seems to me like these people have just traded the craziness and insanity of the drinking life for the less-physically-dangerous craziness and insanity of a faux-program.

On the up side, I guess it's definitely a step in the right direction that they are not drinking, and the fact that they are physically sober and at least somewhat involved in something that could help them if they would only wake up and notice might always work to their advantage eventually.

As far as the internet goes, about 3 years ago one of the treatment centers where I live actually put a full-time person specializing in working with internet addicts on staff. The Chinese government also recently began a program to deal with this issue among its youth. When my partner had her dry-drunk relapse a few years ago, compulsive internet usage was one of the major manifestations -- and I'm not talking about internet porn here either -- although that does seem to account for a large percentage of addictive internet usage. At that time, she would be on-line 18-20 hours per day, She rarely ate or slept and drank, literally, a couple gallons of coffee per day to keep her awake. It was total, escapist, "what else can I do besides drink to escape my feelings and my self-loathing????" behavior. She lost a relationship, a job, and most of her financial security because of it before she returned to AA.

...I could go on here....but, basically, from what I can tell, anyone who has the tendency to use addictive patterns to "deal" with life can, with enough effort, sufficient lack of self-awareness, and the wrong motives, become addicted to any substance or any behavior that he/she enjoys and that distracts him/her from him/herself.

freya

[Peter]

It is all about "balance" guys.

Fortunately for me the "oldtimers" that still attend my homegroup are well aware of the importance of balance. I do not believe they still attend meetings because they do not have a social life but because they understand the importance of "giving back" and because they still feel a joy of fellowship.

The oldtimers at my meetings are well loved and respected ( personally I wish I could see and hear them share more often) If they feel a measure of pride in their success in recovery then who am I to begrudge them that.

[whiskerkissed]

Originally Posted by Peter

I have never really heard it suggested that a person could be "addicted to the empathy and attention" that a newcomer may get.....sorta like an addict version of Munchausen Syndrome . I hope I am understanding you so far ?.

Exactly so!

Originally Posted by Peter

If people are "relapsing" for the attention they think they could be getting i suppose i could understand that, but i could in no way even remotely regard this as recovery.

No - this cannot be regarded as any form of recovery and poses another form of something to recover from. Would the person with this form of addiction even consciously know this was why they couldn't attain true recovery though? They know they're beginning to lose that "special feeling of caring and sharing" which manifests itself in loneliness...one of the things many addicts try to cover up - or filling the void.

DG - I've not been to enough NA meetings to say one way of another if this why some might keep going back. Whether it's to earnestly help in the beginning and may have changed to something mightier? I haven't seen this in my group...and I won't say it doesn't happen...I've just not seen it. The only thing I know is the ones with long recovery dates keep going back because it's worked for them. There is one who left the rooms for several years and strayed further from the program steps and relapsed pretty badly. It was enough for him to keep coming back even though this stint in recovery has also been fairly long. I'm just appreciative they're there...or all I would be talking to is people trying to find recovery...just like me. I think I know what the ultimate outcome would be if all there were was a bunch of newbs with dealer's phone numbers still in their wallets...;-)

[freya]

Originally Posted by Peter

Fortunately for me the "oldtimers" that still attend my homegroup are well aware of the importance of balance. I do not believe they still attend meetings because they do not have a social life but because they understand the importance of "giving back" and because they still feel a joy of fellowship.

Yes -- this is an important point -- a good recovery program enhances one's life; it doesn't (except for maybe early on) become one's life!

[lizw]

you can either be a example of what people want or an example of what people don't want.....

[LogCabin]

Interesting topic. My first thoughts were exactly the same as Peters.

So you are talking a mental illness aside from the mental illness of self-destructing with alcohol and drugs.

I think that I have found that many people in recovery do suffer from other problems. Some are willing to look at those other problems, and others are not.

I think the old timers do stay because of what they get out of the meetings. And there is nothing wrong with that. Any way to find peace and meditation..ways to relax and feel good are positive. And or just be social, and get out of oneself. I heard someone complain that the meeting say the same thing over and over again. Well, yeah they do, but I have also heard things there that I have never heard before. And I enjoy both parts now. Hearing some of the repetition, and hearing the new. I would say I am developing a healthy addiction to the good feelings I get there. And the laughter. And I really work hard on trying to "listen". Even the same ol' same ol'. One sentence will stand out and I will really think about it even though I have heard it a thousand times.

I have heard one person say that they only feel normal in meetings, and that when they are with "normies" they feel out of place. Speaking only for me...I want to be able to survive, and be a part of, both worlds. With Normies, and with people who understand our disease. I don't like separating and dividing.

Anyway..I agree with Peter's reply. There may be some people who enjoy the attention of recovery, but that is not the norm. Mental illness can appear in many different forms. And is always interesting to me.

As far as people who go to meetings and still don't follow a enlightened path...well what can I say. None of us are perfect or have a perfect program. And who am I to judge what another is doing right or wrong? My own Dad is about to celebrate 30 years of sobriety, and yet he still can not stop blaming his past, or anything for what is wrong in his life. One of the first things I had to do...was stop blaming my past, and others for what is wrong with me. Especially as an adult who has to make my own choices. I can only blame myself, or accept that I can't control everything.

Anyway, it kinda makes me sad to see my Dad still blaming after being such a BigBook AA thumper. But that is his problem and not mine. I just want to be accepting of all the differences that are out there.

[kmsj75]

As for why old-timers still attend meetings, can you imagine walking into a meeting for the first time just to find a bunch of new-comers that really don't have the experience, strength and hope that you so desperately need?

Had I not seen the people with 10+ years, heard their stories and seen their spiritual transformations, I wouldn't have stayed.

Also, just because you have time in the program doesn't mean that you are "recovered." IMO, we are never recovered from our addiction. We may recover from a helpless state of mind and body, but never from our disease itself.

I have seen a few with 5, 10, even 20 years go back out. If I thought I was ever "recovered," I would go right back out so that I could now drink/drug like a normal person. And that, my friend, will never happen.

[sct]

The way my sponsor puts it- is that going to meetings (he only goes once or twice a week, and has almost 10 years clean) and giving back is a way of keeping his spiritual glass full. It gets him out of his own head, and his own problems and reminds him to listen. I still go to lots of meetings, but I am starting to cut back, when I'm sick, when I'm really busy, etc. So, yeah, balance. It's one thing for a newcomer to be going to meetings every single day, or twice a day... but if someone has 5, 10 years clean and is still going that often, it would make me wonder where the balance is in their lives.

[kj3880]

I really like the meetings. I do find them to be the social center of my life. I only have about 100 and some days sober, so I'm fairly new, but I could see myself sticking around, at least once or twice a week, just for the friendship, and the fun, even if I wasn't helping anyone, although I do expect to help others.

It's hard for me, and maybe some others, to find social outlets as an adult, that don't center around booze and drinking. Most people just like to have a couple of drinks at a party. So it's a relief to be around other people and go to events where that isn't even a factor. It's such a relief that I can go to an NA dance or picnic, or just dinner out with NA buddies, and no drinks are ordered, none are offered, nobody's getting loaded. It's just so great.
KJ

[Time2Surrender]

Originally Posted by dancinggirl

I found that people in the AA meetings I've gone to run the gambit from still drinking to people that haven't touched the stuff in over 30 years. I wondered about those 30+ years people....why are they still coming?! It's almost like they're addicted to the meetings and are using them as their social life! Or addicted to the attention they get as the "old-timers" who know the answers.

I think the longest time Ive seen in the meetings I attend was 52 or 53 yrs. Old man Frank. He passed away a couple years ago, but was always at meetings. We can only keep what we have by giving it away. I will alway go. Like people say. "I want to give back what was givin so freely to me" And I have seen people with 20+ yrs go back out. Recovery is a life long journey. And a good one with endless rewards. I dont think its so much about the attention. I feel not too many people with Ego's make it. And for most, they realize AA has given them a life.

[NoelleR]

Yes, I've seen a few 'old timers' in meetings who might just have been there for the attention, but for the most part the folks I've seen in meetings (with double-digit sobriety/recovery) fall into two categories: 1) those who say they still 'need' meetings to maintain their sobriety/recovery; and 2) those who find that this is their way of 'giving back' ----

For me, I've found that: 1) meetings have never gotten anyone sober, nor have they kept folks sober [that would be the steps, the program (and there's no mention of mtgs in any of the steps)] (I got sober/recovered to get a life, even a life outside the rooms of AA); and 2) I used to feel that the only way to 'give back' was by attending meetings, but now,for me, to 'carry the message' means that I 'carry' it outside, in my life, wherever I go and not just sit within the walls of AA rooms and wait for folks to come to me.... (o:


NoelleR

[least]

I like the concept of being "addicted" to recovery. Cause if I'm addicted to recovery I can't become addicted to anything that is bad for me!

[whiskerkissed]

I guess it should have been phrased differently. What would have been more to what I was trying to get across is being "addicted to relapsing" for the empathy brought on from others during the "Its ok...just pick yourself up and do it again and we'll love you anyway" support.

Thanks for all the input into this thread.

I do hope to be one of the "old timers" eventually. Right now...I have too much to learn...;-)

[Nainoa]

Originally Posted by whiskerkissed

I guess it should have been phrased differently. What would have been more to what I was trying to get across is being "addicted to relapsing" for the empathy brought on from others during the "Its ok...just pick yourself up and do it again and we'll love you anyway" support.

Thanks for all the input into this thread.

I do hope to be one of the "old timers" eventually. Right now...I have too much to learn...;-)

In the last 13+ years I've helped a couple of people "Get Clean" in my own way.

When I quit, I have a horrifying "Moment of Clarity" No program... No Support... No NA groups in my town at the time, the only program in town was expensive... Even tried finding religion and that went sour... I Had to go it alone... And while I did have "Cross Over" for a while...

I never relapsed.

Where as some of my friends who later got into programs when programs came to town... They had a real knack for getting into a progam and using it as a crutch...

Or get into a program and use other people as a crutch. I was a common crutch because I was of course sympathetic.

What I eventually learned was that when you help someone who's been using unconditionally, they will eventually find a way to use you and use the substance.

Now groups and programs weren't for me. (I totally understand that they are for some people, and I completely support that!)

But I think the group and support system as it exists with the "We're always here for you unconditionally" approach needs to be amended... Because I've seen first hand with people I've been "Cheering for" how they found a way to use "Group" as a crutch to Enable them to keep using and keep feeling loved.

*****

I have many sayings I live my life by... One of the big ones is "Personal accountability is the high water mark of a man... Don't live your life making low-tide excuses."

[kmsj75]

Nainoa,

I have to disagree with your statement about the "unconditional love" approach needing to be amended. NA was where I learned for the first time what unconditional love was. They were the only people who would accept me, let alone help me. My family had split, husband left, friends gone- Thank God for their love! I had never known love without strings...

Most people don't get a clean/sobriety date and keep it forever. Unfortunately, relapse is a part of a lot of peoples' stories. One of the neatest guys I've ever met in the program (former child actor turned heroin junkie) has literally a grocery bag full of white key tags. They loved him, and he felt comfortable coming back each time he failed. He now has 7-8 years and is a pivotal member in my neck of the woods.

I do see your point, in that there are a few out there that are what I call "crisis surfers." However, amending the unconditional love approach, IMO, would be cutting out a chunk of the heart of the program.

[Toomutch]

I dont attend AA, nor do I have alot of sobertime.
I do love the attention, support and understanding I recieve here at SR. But more than that with the more sobertime I get behind me the more I want to help others who are struggling in early sobriety.

I even remember thinking about exactly what you said in. I thought what do these old timers get from staying on these boards, and now I know. They are giving back so much of what they recieved early on and are still recieving, which in my opinion is unconditional support.

[Nainoa]

Originally Posted by kmsj75

Nainoa,

I have to disagree with your statement about the "unconditional love" approach needing to be amended. NA was where I learned for the first time what unconditional love was. They were the only people who would accept me, let alone help me. My family had split, husband left, friends gone- Thank God for their love! I had never known love without strings...

Most people don't get a clean/sobriety date and keep it forever. Unfortunately, relapse is a part of a lot of peoples' stories. One of the neatest guys I've ever met in the program (former child actor turned heroin junkie) has literally a grocery bag full of white key tags. They loved him, and he felt comfortable coming back each time he failed. He now has 7-8 years and is a pivotal member in my neck of the woods.

I do see your point, in that there are a few out there that are what I call "crisis surfers." However, amending the unconditional love approach, IMO, would be cutting out a chunk of the heart of the program.

I see what you're saying... You make a good point...

But sometimes there had to be that "Rock and a hard place"

Sometimes I think we let people in our lives be wounded because we don't want to play the part of "Tough love."

I mean in the end the career addict is someone who hasn't hit rock bottom...The career addict is someone who hit rock bottom... Realized it's there and has figured out system to hover "Just above Rock Bottom."

Compared to these hovering people... It's a blessing to run into a moment of clarity and suffer blood puking withdrawls.

And I think the system is beautifully set up for Moderate abusers... And People who have had their moment of clarity... But I think there are gaps that need to be addressed for "Floaters."

[kmsj75]

I have a person in my life right now (a former sponsee) who is a "floater." I share your frustration with these folks- every other week it's "I messed up/things got bad." The way I was taught to deal with situations like that is to be there- BUT if it starts seriously messing with your sanity, it's time to distance. I'm at that point with her. She'll text me and tell me she's not doing well, and I just text back and say "I'm sorry." I've also told her (after her dramatic whine) "When it hurts bad enough, you'll quit. Period." I'm done taking her to emergency rooms, spending hours on the phone, etc. While I have distanced myself from her, I continue to tell her that I love her so that she knows if she ever hits that bottom she can call me.

My concern is that if they don't feel welcome in NA, what's left? In my experience, people come as a last resort. They have no where left to turn. However, I do think there are those who are "unconstitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves," (an AA saying.)

Also, I'm not sure how you define a "moderate" abuser. I was certainly not a moderate abuser, but I suppose I did have that moment of clarity that you mentioned.

Whatever the answer is, I don't think it's an easy one...

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Peter

First of all in my opinion a "chronic relapser" is not recovering. A chronic relapser is merely between drunks. "Recovery" means to get back what was lost and this includes our ability to make healthy choices about our life. If we keep returning to drinking when we know drinking is harming us then it means we still have not "recovered" our ability to make healthy choices.

Would being in a harm reduction program be considered as being in recovery as long as the goal is total abstinence? Also, I have considered that cronic relapsers may be experiencing some ambiguity about recovery. Like some people I have known in a harm reduction program.

[Nainoa]

Originally Posted by kmsj75

I have a person in my life right now (a former sponsee) who is a "floater." I share your frustration with these folks- every other week it's "I messed up/things got bad." The way I was taught to deal with situations like that is to be there- BUT if it starts seriously messing with your sanity, it's time to distance. I'm at that point with her. She'll text me and tell me she's not doing well, and I just text back and say "I'm sorry." I've also told her (after her dramatic whine) "When it hurts bad enough, you'll quit. Period." I'm done taking her to emergency rooms, spending hours on the phone, etc. While I have distanced myself from her, I continue to tell her that I love her so that she knows if she ever hits that bottom she can call me.

My concern is that if they don't feel welcome in NA, what's left? In my experience, people come as a last resort. They have no where left to turn. However, I do think there are those who are "unconstitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves," (an AA saying.)

Also, I'm not sure how you define a "moderate" abuser. I was certainly not a moderate abuser, but I suppose I did have that moment of clarity that you mentioned.

Whatever the answer is, I don't think it's an easy one...

See I feel that for someone who is a chronic relapser.. while there are second and third chances and the like... I make it clear to them "My Help is not unconditional."

I'm not here to wipe someone's nose...

And I think it's a disservice to them to wipe their nose for them.

Addiction already causes a case of Arrested development... In the rest of "Real Life." No one else is going to take care of you... No one else it going to shepherd you to wisdom.

Nor should they... People who cheer you on and help you find your way to work through it are invaluable... But when they become a substitue for something that's missing inside of who you are... It's only going to find a way to add to the disease.

In the end Strength does not come from simply avoiding failure... Strength comes from falling down and picking yourself back up.

A wise man once told me "The definition of insanity is not simply doing things that other people think is crazy... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

[ananda]

At this point I have decided it is not my role to make anything "harder" for someone else to "make" them hit bottom or "help" them hit bottom.

I let them know there is hope of recovery and I give support and understanding. I don't save them from there mistakes but I don't push them off the cliff either..or think I know what's best for them.

A girl called me from another town. She had a headache and no asprin and no money. I suggested several alternatives like dark room or calling a number of someone in her area. I did not drive 30 miles to get her some asprin. But I did talk to her about her life and sobriety and gave her an understanding and compasionate ear.

Then again if she had been standing next to me or 2 houses down I would have given her the asprin as well!

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by whiskerkissed

People relapse. Addicts relapse. This is such a common problem...and one we can't ignore. Picking yourself up, dusting yourself off and starting again is part of the process. For people to tell you to do that is part of the process. Support is necessary and critical. But...are there those out there that do this just for that care and understanding?

That would really suck being addicted to the recovery process itself.

that last line in your quote above is so powerful and speaks so well to some of the aspects of early recovery. as an old timer myself i clearly understand there are stages to successful longterm recovery.

briefly stated i see it this way: the process begins with desire and self-acceptence. then finds a middle with transitional changes and ritual maintenence. finally fullfilment competence and real-time personal growth.

action at the first stage is where i have seen in abundance what you're speaking of re: to be addicted to the recovery process itself. it is a simple truth that most addicts within recovery do relapse and they do so most often at the first stage.

early recovery is a nowhere place to exist as i see it. the hardcore addict is pumped to quit because of the horror waiting just behind them and the horror preparing just ahead of them... there is no difference to be appreciated: both have death or worse looking back at them with love in its eyes but hate in its heart. heh heh.

soooo powerful is that extreme sense of conflict and paradox when the addict *quits*. oh god, the power of that "aha! moment", that realization is just totally supreme and intensely personal. rock me again, babe.

so then is born a conflicted paradox which is totally experienced in real-time and clearly seperates the past, present, and future of the hardcore addict. and that paradoxical conflict is exciting, defining, affirming, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, sexual, sensual, primal, thrilling, dangerous, safe, on, off, ... et al. but the single thing about the action of early recovery is that it is in a word this: a real experience in a world of fakeness

and it is that experiential existence which is the addictive element in the recovery process imo that attracts addicts to seek relapse in their recovery.

hardcore addicts love that moment of aha! never hating it; always loving it.... oh... yeah. its how one gets that and uses that that makes the difference. keeping that experiential magic into the second and third stages totally, .... wait for it, ... totally guarantees lifetime recovery.

Hey Veronica,
awesome thread Whiskers... i am sooo proud of you i just wanna creme my jeans! hahahaha... oh yeah ... you are so on the path to becoming an old timer!

Robby