Secular Free Speech

[Murray4x5]

This user group is in response to so many interesting threads being closed in the Secular Connections forum.

Apparently, in years gone by, people used to drop in there to debate the existence of God(s), higher powers and/or the need for one to submit to Him/Her/it/them in order to remain sober. Then the secular folk, feeling slighted, began to bring the debate into other areas of SR. Nobody wants that.

This user group is an attempt to have a space where we can freely exchange our views without having the threads closed because somebody might take offence to it. There are many areas for those of the religious persuasion to share their views here on SR...please allow us ours.

To start things off, why not continue Supercrew's most excellent thread;

Powerless...a secular view

After reading the posts regarding powerlessness and what it means to many on this board, I was wondering if anyone in the secular arena had views on it.

I am still trying to decide whether I am a true "alcoholic". I know I have a severe problem with alcohol, to the point that I never want to drink again and made up my mind that I won't, but before I made that ultimate decision, I was powerless because I wanted to drink.

Do you feel the people who need to say they are powerless against alcohol before the first drink are people who in reality and maybe even subconciously still have a desire to drink? I mean for 27 years there was nothing I wanted more in life than to drink, and that is all I knew. There was no way I was going to quit and that's why I tried moderation unsuccessfully for so many years, because I could not fathom life without drinking. But when I finally decided that it wasn't going to be part of my life anymore, (gasp), then it has been a fairly easy process. I am not powerless at all unless I pick up the first one.

If this powerlessness is a tool to get people who really aren't sure they want to quit and it works, great, but maybe it doesn't pertain to every alcoholic. Or maybe I am not a true alcoholic to begin with.

Thoughts?

Murray 4x5;

Oh, I think you and I are alcoholics. We may have managed to hop off the bus before it dropped over the cliff, but we would have progressed into being "serious" alcoholics in the end.

I haven't read the other thread yet, but I don't believe in powerlessness.

I used to go for a walk in the evenings and had to make sure my wallet was in my pocket before I left. Then as I walked along, I'd go by the beer and wine store, and just for the heck of it, buy some booze. Then I'd carry it home, open it, pour it into a glass, then raise it to my lips and drink it.

That makes six steps where I could have halted the process if I had wanted to. Six times in that scenario where I had the opportunity to say no. Back in those days it was me who wanted to drink, it was me who chose to drink, it was me who opened the bottle, it was me who raised the glass to my lips, and it was me who drank until I got wasted.

I was responsible for my actions, and I'm fully responsible for not ever doing it again. No greater force than I made me drink, and no supernatural being exists to make me stop...it is 100% in my own hands to save my own life.

Murray


LaFemme;

Glad you brought this to our corner of SR since I was reading the other thread and was totally lost!!!

Regarding alcoholic or not...I think we were all on the path and whether you definitely e a true "alcoholic" as being someone on that path or being over Murray's cliff is up to you. Its all semantics to me.

At the end of my drinking days I remember how much will power it took me to drink...I was at the point where I despised it yet still forced myself to drink...why did I do that? My guess is because the alcohol had effected me to the point where my depression was overwhelming and on one level I wanted death...I don't care to obsess about it because I am looking forward to the future.

But regarding the powerless aspect to drinking, no I was not powerless over alcohol, but I might have been close to being powerless over my depression.


gneiss;

Glad you brought this to our corner of SR since I was reading the other thread and was totally lost!!!

Regarding alcoholic or not...I think we were all on the path and whether you definitely e a true "alcoholic" as being someone on that path or being over Murray's cliff is up to you. Its all semantics to me.

At the end of my drinking days I remember how much will power it took me to drink...I was at the point where I despised it yet still forced myself to drink...why did I do that? My guess is because the alcohol had effected me to the point where my depression was overwhelming and on one level I wanted death...I don't care to obsess about it because I am looking forward to the future.

But regarding the powerless aspect to drinking, no I was not powerless over alcohol, but I might have been close to being powerless over my depression.


Supercrew;

I do understand that gneiss. And yes as Murray stated as far as alcoholics go, I consider myself one of the group. But sometimes the "powerless" thing throws me for a loop. At one point I would like to think that I am not powerless against taking the first drink, which I know for almost certain is a fact, but then I read that even some people who have 5-10 years of sobriety then relapse, then say that they were powerless to begin with, and then do the steps, and then say without admitting your powerless you will always come back to alcohol.

I don't think I am setting my self up for failure, but if you read enough long timer posts it would be easy to think that I am. At the same time I would like to think that maybe I just don't want to drink more than some others may admit. I would like to think I have a stronger resolve than most, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that would be the case. Like I said it sort of has me stumped. Is it easy for me to quit because I finally decided that I really wanted to, or is it easy for me to quit because I'm not really a true alcoholic, or is it easy for me to quit because I really haven't quit because I haven't given in and admitted I'm powerless?

Does any of that make sense? I mean I guess it isn't that bad of a dilemma to face at this point, I had a major problem, I fixed it, I feel great, it's something I battled all of my life, but is the battle really over? I say yes...but if you read enough here you might guess otherwise.


Murray4x5;

There are some people on SR who quit once and have stayed quit for decades; I can't recall one of them attributing their sobriety to a higher power.

I would look on your success so far as an indication of your strength of character and strength of conviction. I've had a few squirrelly moments, but none so bad as to put booze to lips. Your and my challenge is to not fall into the trap so many others fall into; where they think that quitting wasn't so hard, so what's the harm in getting drunk once in a while.

The limbic system has a long memory. My favourite example is that even the least intelligent kid in class will remember which house gave out the biggest chocolate bars at Halloween last year. One drink would set off a fireworks display in my brain, and as has been proven millions of times before me, I'll pick up pretty much from where I left off. The progressive nature of alcohol's damaging effects to my brain would ensure I keep increasing the frequency and volume consumed, and I'd die an early, ugly death if I wasn't able to quit for good.

A couple months before I managed to quit cigarettes, about 15 years ago, a co-worker said to me, "All you have to do is decide". That comment buzzed around in my brain for months. It irked me to the bone. It annoyed the heck out of me, because in my heart of hearts I knew he was right. Ultimately it comes down to deciding to quit, and to never, ever use again.

Nobody is powerless to alcohol or any other drug. If they use again, it's because they didn't want sobriety bad enough, simple as that, full stop. (Can you see why I didn't join the earlier thread you were talking about?)

Pretty simple stuff, huh?

Murray


And that's where it was shut down. Care to keep it going?

[LaFemme]

Ok...we must having been writing threads at the same time...might e was more of a rant and you were clever enough to bring the posts over so I say we go with yours:-)

[LaFemme]

When I was drinking...I wanted sobriety desperately ....today I cherish it, my greatest worry is that I will take it for granted and not protect it. I can't fathom ever drinking again...but I also believe that something could happen that I can't foresee that would change that. I sometimes feel...listening to others stories that I am doing sobriety all wrong...only it feels so right.

[Dee74]

Good to see you guys branching out.

Keep in mind tho that these user social groups are subject to the same rules about flaming etc and moderation that apply to the rest of SR....

and as this group appears to be public, everyone can read...and comment.
D

[Antiderivative]

I think the first step in AA could be re-worded differently. I think both the words, "powerlessness" and "unmanageable" are not the correct words.

I prefer to believe that I lack control when I drink and all bets are off when I drink that first one. I am at stage where I don't even try to have just a couple. I probably could do it, just to prove a point, but it will set off that mental obsession and I will be extremely agitated if I don't keep drinking. Sooner or later, it will catch up to me and I will go on a bender and I am not sure when I would put down the drink to get sober again.

If you read Dr. Bob's story in the Big Book, he tells us that for 17 years, he had to stay sober during the day in order to drink. Certainly, he had cravings and urges, but to protect his drinking, he needed to work and make an income. I wouldn't necessarily call that powerless. He was a slave to a substance, but he managed enough to stay away from drinking during the day.

Therefore, his life wasn't "unmanageable", but more like a disorganized mess. My life was never unmanageable. I managed to get out of all sorts of self-afflicted and perverse situations and continue on with my life. Was my life a disorganized mess and was I unhappy? Yes.

If this powerlessness is a tool to get people who really aren't sure they want to quit and it works, great, but maybe it doesn't pertain to every alcoholic. Or maybe I am not a true alcoholic to begin with.

I honestly believe that it is used to get people to believe in God or a HP. It sets you up for the second step. That is why the 2nd is worded like it is. After you admit you are powerless, then only a supernatural entity can help you.

If the first step said, "We admitted we lack self control over our addiction - that our lives had become disorganized mess", then perhaps one would not have to appeal to God for the solution.

[topspin]

Allright, found this !

I still don't quite understand some of the regulations , it's a little disheartening; (...mostly just confusing) about what can and cannot be discussed, but I trust you guys have arrived in a Free (er) Speech Zone. Congratulations and Good Luck ! lo

Please take me at my sincerest word, I don't mean to be even slightly , confrontational anywhere here at SR. Love this place too much.

Peace

[LaFemme]

Originally Posted by Antiderivative

I honestly believe that it is used to get people to believe in God or a HP. It sets you up for the second step. That is why the 2nd is worded like it is. After you admit you are powerless, then only a supernatural entity can help you.

If the first step said, "We admitted we lack self control over our addiction - that our lives had become disorganized mess", then one would not have to appeal to God for the solution.

Interesting!!! I think that might be the lack of interest in AA for me has a connection to the fact I already had a relationship with God...no need to go looking for one.

[Zencat]

I posted this on Lafemme "social group" thread in secular.

Originally Posted by Zencat

There is a way to have a group that is by invitation only (private). Same SR rules apply but with selected members there will be greater harmony...so less grievances and conflict.

Click me to create such a group here at SR.

[topspin]

Who does the "invitations" Zencat ?

[Murray4x5]

Hi Zencat,

In your link above, does "Users must join to view the content" mean that anybody who wants to read a thread in that forum has to go an extra step to join first?

I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I would have a problem with people being invited or voted in. Could we set it up so anybody can join, but if a person becomes aggressively antagonistic towards our secular views, we can vote to kick them out?

How does everybody else feel?

Murray

[Supercrew]

I'm good with whatever, and thank you Murray and anyone else who helped get this up!

I would first like to say that I agree with Topspin, and I am not here to bash anyone elses method of recovery. The reason why I even ask questions or post in certain threads is firstly because I am like a sponge right now and I want to learn more about my affliction. Secondly I know that if I would have had alot of this information years ago and I wasn't so turned off by my forced stint with AA, I might have quit earlier maybe even with the help of AA, so if I can impart any info to anyone who thinks like me it might be helpful in someone elses recovery.

So lets keep this place clean of bashing anyones way to recovery, but maybe we could even develop a workable plan to help others who might be in our same boat.

Thanks again Murray and SR!

[Supercrew]

Ok, now for my next big question regarding our secular journey to recovery and helping others.

There was a post earlier in the week from a 23 year old guy who said he was a binge drinker. It was obvious that drinking has caused him some problems, and he sounded like he needed some serious help. Well the posts poured in saying "youre just like me, get to AA, you need help immediately, it's great you found this place, etc".

The poor kids next post was something along the lines of, "I think you have me pegged wrong, I'm not like all of you alkies, don't really want to quit, I'm only 23 etc".

Basically with our loving approach we scared the hell out of him. I tried a final post in the thread to only find it was locked, (because it was going nowhere). So I sent him a PM which I have not heard back from.

Before I sent the PM I read through his posts again, and really realized that he was exactly like me.....when I was 23 or so. He obviously had the alcoholic gene, he drank more and faster than all of his buddies, he couldn't control it regularly, but he only drank once or twice a week. After I reread everything I realized that there was no way I was ever going to quit drinking at 23, and although I wasn't out looking for help on the internet to help me moderate, (we barely had an internet then), I wasn't even near admitting myself to AA.

So Basically I told him that his starting point was much like my own, and I did what he was doing for well over 20 years with minimal troubles, at least in the beginning, and i still have a stable of drinking buddies and some even had the curse as I know it, but most are alive and kicking. I did mention that I had buried two friends to drunk driving accidents, and I have two more close friends who I consider binging alcoholics who both have some serious medical issues with diabetes. I then said it is possible that he might not progress and just be a binger for the rest of his life, or he may mature at some point and realize that you can have fun without your life revolving around getting loaded, and it only took me 27 years to figure it out. I also told him about how my drinking problem progressed as I got more money in my pocket and more time on my hands and how once you realize moderation won't work and you still don't want to give up drinking I realized what a great idea it would be to just stay drunk all of the time. My tolerance would be super high, no one would normally be able to tell when i was drunk, because I would always be drunk and they wouldn't have a starting point to measure from. (True story about my genious alcoholic brain). Anyways I ended it by telling him that at least he found this place so if he ever seriously considers quitting he would know where to come.

Now my question is was I wrong for telling him that at 23 years of age what he is doing isn't that abnormal, and he could continue and even live a decent life on the path he was going even though it was quite apparent that he can't stop once he starts? I mean I would have never quit drinking at 23 even if I was told that it would be a surety that I would be dead by 30. I did let him know that I didn't think his was a control problem and it was in fact that he might have a case of the alcoholism and for him to stay vigilant. I just hate the fact that he was scared away, much like I would have been in an AA meeting 20 years ago.

[Supercrew]

I apologize I just realized I was able to start a new thread in the user forum....is that the appropriate way to do this from now on with a new topic? or are we going to keep them in one thread?

[justjo]

I dont think I read his posts but the fact he came to the forums suggests to me that maybe he was trying to figure out if he was just being a 23 yr old binge drinker with his mates or if he had more serious problems. He may have just been testing the waters if you know what i mean. "we got him all pegged wrong" remember.
I dont think there are wrong or right answers here for anyone looking for help, as at the end of the day, we will all take the answers we want only, even if we think someone is right or wrong.
JJ

[Murray4x5]

Hi Supercrew,

I think we just keep adding to this one...sort of like a running multi-layered conversation.

By the sounds of it, I think the good you did for the lad far outweighs anything that might be bad. At 23 he had the smarts to question his actions, and maybe your words will stick with him until the day he really does want to quit.

Murray

[Antiderivative]

Originally Posted by Murray4x5

How does everybody else feel?

I am not going to join a "good ol' boys" club. If I wanted private and exclusive membership to something, then I would join a country club.

I have no problem having open discussion where people have different views, even about supernatural entities.

As for the bashing, I won't vote anyone else off. I have a high tolerance for freedom of expression, even if it is distasteful. It is a pathetic reflection on that person . Plus, it is also a good exercise in temperance.

Regardless, the forum has rules and Dee said that the subgroups operate under the same rules of flaming, bashing ,etc. Therefore, a vote kick for bashing is not needed.

[LaFemme]

I'm okay with leaving this thread open to anyone e and if we need to close it to prevent really angry discussions I. The future we can revisit it. I welcome some diversity of thought because I would enjoy and lively discussion of varying viewpoints but I am concerned by the thought of conversations being derailed.

I think for now one thread works otherwise we will take over thesocial group section and there is a dog lovers group here as well:-)

Supercrew...I know the thread you are talking about and I agree the kid was scared off. I think you have a right to your opinionand don't think it was completely I accurate. However, there are already a number of 23 year Oldsmobile here who are sober and I know someone who got sober incollege as well...hard todobut not impossible...it is impossible if said person gets scared off. I will say this...I had warning signs in college but I never drank as bad as that kid.

Which brings me toanother topic..."only you can day if you are an alcoholic." Am I the only one who thinks there is a point where this statement is rubbish. Toni in Rain in my heart thought she wasn't an alcoholic...anyone with half a brain would say otherwise...might have saved her life.

[Antiderivative]

Originally Posted by Supercrew

Now my question is was I wrong for telling him that at 23 years of age what he is doing isn't that abnormal, and he could continue and even live a decent life on the path he was going even though it was quite apparent that he can't stop once he starts?

I wouldn't have said this. For example, he is 23 and posting on SR which is abnormal, not normal. When he drinks, he blackouts and wakes up with regret, remorse, and self-loathing. Again, abnormal, not normal.

He has gotten kicked out of his college dorms, gets into multiple fights, wakes up with injuries, gets ticketed for being drunk in public and public urination, embarrasses himself in front of his family numerous times, and has said regrettable things multiple times. He is also going to "experiment" with his drinking in order to control it, such as going out later and staying away from the hard stuff.

This is abnormal behavior, not normal behavior. Even for a 23 year old.

I definitely feel for the kid. He reminds me of me at that age. I was already feeling self-afflicted pain when I was 21, but I wasn't ready to quit or face my denial. I was still rationalizing it, minimizing it, making excuses, and having internal struggles with my demons. I had to feel more pain before I was ready.

Perhaps, he is a problem drinker who will one day get his drinking under moderation. This is certainly a possibility. My good friend in college was able to moderate his drinking and get over cocaine. A few other friends were not able. However, from his posts, I am skeptical. Additionally, the path he is on, hardly seems decent. He is bringing problems into his life and the main culprit is his drinking.

I am not saying you are wrong, since this issue is not a black and white issue. However, I do disagree with your statement. Nonetheless, it is unfortunate that he was scared off and that thread was locked. He seemed to be in pain and confused, which is is normal for a 23 year old with a drinking problem.

[Antiderivative]

Originally Posted by LaFemme

Which brings me to another topic..."only you can day if you are an alcoholic." Am I the only one who thinks there is a point where this statement is rubbish.

I agree with you that there is a point where that statement becomes rubbish. There are definitely shades of gray between a problem drinker who may eventual moderate and an burgeoning alcoholic.

However, if you are landing yourself in detoxes, rehab, losing jobs, destroying relationships, destroying your health, etc., then you are an alcoholic and should aim for abstinence.

Perhaps there are few examples that negate this, but it is highly unlikely.

[Murray4x5]

I think if Supercrew was trying to talk with him, instead of at him and wasn't preaching to him, that is a good thing.

I missed that thread, so shouldn't chime in I guess...

As far as this thread goes, I'm okay with leaving it open too. I've got a thick skin and don't get my feathers ruffled either...especially concerning theories that are impossible to prove. Hopefully it won't get cantankerous and spills into the other SR forums like Dee experienced in the past. If it does, we can reconsider options then.

Murray