Secular Free Speech

[LaFemme]

Thick skin here too...I'm all for being polite and respectful but I have been self censoring pretty heavily since I got on SR and all I want is a place where we can haveopen dialogue.

So to that...I would add...I think the Co felt of a person needing to hit their bottom is rubbish to:-) sure, Its what some people need...but the concept is so pervasive in society that I believe people only gethelp once the problem is out of control. The disease is progressive...even if we were able to catch only 10% of future alcoholics prior to their bottom that would be a good thing. Education and changing perceptions is what is needed here.

I know I did not hit my bottom...I'm an all or nothing kind of person and my potential bottom is way lower than where I stopped...does that mean I am doomed to fail at sobriety ...not in my opinion.

[Zencat]

I'm good to go with the open group. Looks like everybody else is too.

[jamdls]

Hi people, I wanted to comment on the Powerlessness thread but it was closed so glad that it directed me here. I too do not agree with the powerlessness aspect and have wondered maybe therefore I'm not a "real alcoholic". I drank excessively for the better part of 33 years, was an extreme black-out drunk and can't remember a couple of decades of my life...but I mostly only drank excessively on the weekends and when I drank during the work week I was able to moderate and when I decided to quit I just quit w/o any formal program. My life was not unmanageable and I was not powerless over alcohol, I never had any legal trouble always had a good paying job/ own home/good kids etc and I chose when and when not to drink. Yes most of the time when I drank I drank more than I intended to but it was still a choice. I think someone saying they are powerless over alcohol/drugs gives people too much of an out or an excuse for the bad that they've done and I don't agree with that, we need to be responsible for ourselves. I don't think not admitting to powerlessness sets me up for failure at all, I never want to drink again because I know what it leads to for me and that guilt/shame/humiliation is not something I ever want to even risk again. I prefer the description of being alergic to alcohol as opposed to powerlessness-- and have often said that if a doctor told me I was allergic to shellfish or peanuts and to eat them could mean death well of course I would never eat shellfish or peanuts; alcohol is just my shellfish or peanuts.

[Zencat]

Do you feel the people who need to say they are powerless against alcohol before the first drink are people who in reality and maybe even subconciously still have a desire to drink?

A psychological defenses like denial could cloud an addicts judgment process thus altering ones beliefs about their experiences. Experiencing powerless would allow an addict to continue their active addiction behavior wile protecting them from the discomfort of realizing that they actually are choosing to engage in their own behavior. I don't see this a moral weakness, but more like brain functioning hijacked by addiction.

[gneiss]

I just wanted to mention that my name was attached to the wrong post in the OP above. My post said that alcoholism is a spectrum, not a toggle that's either on or off.

Powerless? Nope. If I were powerless I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't have been clean for over a year now. Obviously I have power over my addiction. This idea, combined with the idea that I should turn over my addiction to an HP, are exactly why I decided not to bother with traditional 12-step programs. I don't believe in a supernatural force that can fix my problems for me. I got myself into this mess, and it's up to me to get myself out.

[luckedog]

OK, here is my 2 cents worth about this forum in general. I too am thick skinned and opinionated! I also love looking and hearing ALL sides of a issue. I never get offended except possibly by those who are close minded and in tolerant of others.

I think the ones that have responded on this post are a GREAT group; with the addition of some regulars that haven’t had a chance to respond. I like others don’t want to establish a "members only" club. I would prefer an honest open discussion of whatever topics we chose.
I also realize that there should be cretin rules for the sake of safety and order.
In a nutshell I have grown to admire and respect those of us who post under this” secular” heading, and would like to keep up our discussions wherever we have to post.
Just my opinion--love you all!!!

[luckedog]

Sorry just a repeat of above post.

[luckedog]

OK, so I was the only kid in the third grade that drove my own car to school and was able to vote!
I apparently posted twice ( sorry about that **It happens)
And I still cant find the link to come directly here without having to go to Murray’s link. What am I missing I looked all over the bottom of the forum page???? Help I've fallen and I can’t get up!

[LaFemme]

There is a section of the forum called "Social Groups", this thread is located in a section there called "User-created Social Groups" Its the same place as the dog-lovers section.

I think it's designed to be a place people can talk about non-recovery subjects but it seems the best place for our discussions since we won't have to worry about accidentally introducing a 12 step concept into our talks. As I said...I don't know anything about the 12 steps really, so I tend to accidentally introduce them in our old topics. Considering that most of the dialogue in recovery centers on 12 step programs they have pretty much cornered the market on the topic:-)

[Supercrew]

Originally Posted by Zencat

A psychological defenses like denial could cloud an addicts judgment process thus altering ones beliefs about their experiences. Experiencing powerless would allow an addict to continue their active addiction behavior wile protecting them from the discomfort of realizing that they actually are choosing to engage in their own behavior. I don't see this a moral weakness, but more like brain functioning hijacked by addiction.

I look at this powerlessness in 2 ways. One, if it does allow the person to un"hijack" the brain and get into a recovery program where they can learn techniques on how to become sober while still subconciously want to drink it is a great technique if the person follows through and stays sober. But once the person is sober wouldn't it be empowering for the person to know that they really did it on their own and the HP was just a placebo. Then if you ever had the issue again you would be able to say "I can fix it"?

And what if someone were to admit they are powerless go through the 12 steps to a tee and follow the program and then relapse. Wouldn't they immediately think that their case is a hopeless one?

I know the program works for alot of people, but the founders didn't just get sober by being powerless finding a HP and then by developing the 12 steps. Or did they find a way to get people to listen by making it bigger than just a great 10 step system developed by 2 alcoholics? (I hope I'm not getting too controversial here).

[LaFemme]

I dislike the concept that if you relapse it was bfcause you weren't doing something perfectly...I was a good student but getting a 100% was not a common occurrence :-)

An HP as a placebo, negates people who actually believe in an HP. I worry about people who don't believe and are told to fake it until they do...it works for some but what about the ones who it doesn't work for? I personally believe in God...that belief predates my alcoholism by a long shot...I wouldvbe saddened if my belief in Him was tied to my sobriety, but that's just me.

I think religion gets dragged into all sorts of debates that it shouldn't begin...and I wonder if the religion component of AA is part of the draw. There is a void in people that they fill with alcohol...remove the alcohol and you need to fill it with something and God is always handy. I do believe God fills a void in us, but as close as I am to God and as thankful as I am in his assistance in my sobriety, I do believe the majority of his assistance was given by providing me with the tools necessary to live sober....that and the taste of alcohol and cigarettes became disgusting to me (that I credit to him).

Hows that for controversy? A post about God on our Secular thread:-D

[Supercrew]

I like it LaFemme! And I don't think it's controversial at all. Because I can agree with what you wrote. I think maybe I misworded my initial post. I didn't mean that belief in an HP was a placebo, but belief that if you do the steps and admit powerlessness the HP will help you to get to the spiritual awakening.

I truly feel I had some sort of awakening about a month or so ago, and things just seemed brighter to me and they made more sense and much of my depression disappeared. I finally felt for certain that I could live peacefully and happily without ever drinking again. Some might take it as spiritual, I took as acceptance. So I apologize if my post read as if I meant to say God is a placebo. That was not my intention.

[gneiss]

For anyone who has trouble finding the page without linking from another thread or private message:

Go to the forums front page (the list of all forums on SC):
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com

Scroll down almost all the way to the bottom of the page, where the social groups are listed. Here's a picture with the appropriate forum highlighted in red:


Obviously click on User-Created Social Groups then click on the Secular Free Speech thread.

When I first started using SC I thought it was a little confusing. I'm not much for forums and message boards so I had no practical experience with how they are organized.

[luckedog]

Thank you geniss, That was A great help! Like I said before I married a woman from the "show me state"(Missouri) and had two daughters there. I guess it affected me too.
Only good thing is once you Show me I don’t forget!! Appreciate the help!

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Super

I look at this powerlessness in 2 ways. One, if it does allow the person to un"hijack" the brain and get into a recovery program where they can learn techniques on how to become sober while still subconciously want to drink it is a great technique if the person follows through and stays sober. But once the person is sober wouldn't it be empowering for the person to know that they really did it on their own...

I have yet to experience a person that has gotten sober and did not do it on their own. Now they may have an explanation that goes counter to my experience of them, yet the motivations to come up with what I feel are fantastic explanations may be the subconscious part. But that's just how I see it. What motivates someone to give credit to God to what I can clearly see them do, is a greater mystery than can fully comprehend. I could understand how indoctrination of group beliefs can persuade a person into conforming to the group. And then alter how a person interprets their experiences through group think and come to the conclusions that they are changed through forces outside of themselves. That seems plausible to me.


I'm not sure I offer any reasonable response the powerless ponder. But its interesting to explore what I feel are baffling concepts to me.

[Murray4x5]

Originally Posted by gneiss

I just wanted to mention that my name was attached to the wrong post in the OP above. My post said that alcoholism is a spectrum, not a toggle that's either on or off.

OOPS-EE-DAISY!

Ummm...that woulda been my bad...so sorry...I was in kind of a rush...

Murray

[LaFemme]

Hey Zen...yup you get sober by yourself at least in the same way as you do anything in this life...by yourself...at least in the physical plane.

I can't explain very well why I believe in God...my Mom is an atheist and my Dad an agnostic so I wasn't raised in a faith. I just remember always knowing God...outside forces have definitely refined the way I talk and think about him (for example I believe God is either gender neutral or both genders but I refer to God as he/him.because it is easiest). I'm not in the business of converting others because I can't really explain it in words anyway.

So, for me God played a role in my sobriety...but so did I...it was in my power to keep drinking or to pour the bottle down the drain...although, I did give some credit to God that one time the brand new bottle of vino rolled out the car door and broke;-)

I believe God doesn't want me to drink...but he left true choice in my hands...its called free will.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Lafemme

Hey Zen...yup you get sober by yourself at least in the same way as you do anything in this life...by yourself...at least in the physical plane.

I do seek solutions for my problems. Sometimes I enlist the help of others. I don't feel like I'm an island unto myself and can simply will myself about. As I don't think you were trying to imply that.

Interesting, I was raised up in the Christian faith yet I always has this feeling that something was amiss, even as a child. So there is some similar ground here, just on other sides of the issue. I guess it will remain difficult for me to understand why people believe in God or the like.

Another point you brought up is "I can't explain very well why I believe in God". I do want to understand why people like yourself believe in God. To me that is a very fascinating subject. I'm constantly learning to walk lightly about the subject. I hope I'm not coming off too gruff.

[Antiderivative]

Originally Posted by Supercrew

I look at this powerlessness in 2 ways. One, if it does allow the person to un"hijack" the brain and get into a recovery program where they can learn techniques on how to become sober while still subconciously want to drink it is a great technique if the person follows through and stays sober. But once the person is sober wouldn't it be empowering for the person to know that they really did it on their own and the HP was just a placebo. Then if you ever had the issue again you would be able to say "I can fix it"?

I agree with you. Sometimes I think alcoholics/addicts sell themselves short regarding their recovery when they give their HP all the credit. Recovery takes works and effort.

Even sober alcoholics who have a HP, need put effort into their recovery. Those ones who don't do work, aren't honest with themselves, and aren't willing to get sober will probably end up drinking again.

Even though I don't have a HP, I like the saying, "A Higher Power helps those who help themselves."

[LaFemme]

Ooops Zen! I meant "you" as in mankind "you"... all of us here walking around on the earth together..you, me, the mailman, president Obama all of us:-)

We are all alone in the physical sense...the closest we can be to not being alone is probably sex and pregnancy. Yet, I am not alone. Since you asked I will try to explain where I come from in my belief.

Not to get to out there...as a child I saw spirits...as an adult I actually think a lot of kids do. This in some ways forces you to consider the world which is invisible or assume you are looney.

As for my experience with god its like a white light inside me...I can bury it (pretty easy actually), or I can add fuel to it so that it fills every atom of who I am...the phrase that comes to mind of how it feels is the title of a book "peace like a river" when I am with God I am swimming in that river and I am one with that river...I can get in and out of the water whenever I want (free will). For some reason I sought to deny that part of me and the best way to do that was in a bottle. Why would I deny the presence of God if I felt him tangibly in my life my whole life? Well, God was mocked in my childhood home for starters, two I am a highly educated, liberal northeast Yankee who believes in human intelligence, three especially in college none of my friends believed...there are probably some more reasons in there. But where you always felt there was something off about you believing...I always felt there was something off about me not believing. I found my way back to God before I got sober...but I am so much closer to him now that I am sober...its easier to tap into that inner white light which is his presence within me...I believe that presence is within all living beings whether or not you feel it or not.

The problem is...if I truly believed in God...why did I deliberately go against his wishes (drinking) for so long and with such enthusiasm? I think its because I wanted God to materialize in front of me and take the bottle out of my hand and pour it down the drain....but he didn't, he left the choice with me and I am grateful:-)

Although it would have been a pretty cool story!