XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[RUNVS]

XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here. Benzos are very dangerous and alot of people don't know alot about them including some doctors.

I m going to give you some real good info links. Please take the time to read them.

http://www.geocities.com/BenzoBuste...Kwithdrawal.htm

http://www.breggin.com/benzodiazepine.pdf

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

remember knowledge is power in beating this

You can do it

[Done_With_It]

Another one of these threads........ :-/

[shockozulu]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

I m going to give you some real good info links. Please take the time to read them.



http://www.breggin.com/benzodiazepine.pdf

This is the first link I checked out, and it is full of medical misinformation.

"All standard antianxiety agents also have sedative effects and in my clinical experience the antianxiety effect does not occur in the absense of these effects . "

It must be a small practice because common medical literature (See L Stein and Francis for refs) state the opposite. That once the sedative side effects wear off, the antianxiety medication still works.

The author of your link also states that many users of benzos will self-medicate. That is only somewhat correct. Some with anxiety self-medicate, as do those with bi-poler disorder, depression, etc. This has very little to do with the medication used, but has a lot to do with the fact they want the mental illness to go away. IN fact, people who are self-medicating are LESS likely to abuse other drugs once they get on the Benzos.

Here is a paper describing how those with anxiety are likely to abuse alcohol. As you will read, the period of time the disorder exists is 10+ years prior to abuse. This goes against what your link states.

From NIH published paper: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_95148608

Furthermore, among people with alcohol dependence, an estimated 36.9 percent met the criteria for an anxiety disorder during the previous year. Of these, 11.6 percent had GAD, 3.9 percent had panic disorder, and 7.7 percent had PTSD. The chances of having comorbid anxiety disorders were significantly increased among those diagnosed as alcohol-dependent, with the exception of panic disorder.

<snip>

The NCS found that the median age of onset for comorbid psychiatric disorders preceded the median age of onset for all addictive disorders by 10 years (11 years old compared with 21 years old). In addition, the majority of respondents who had both a psychiatric disorder and an addictive disorder reported that they had begun to suffer from at least one psychiatric disorder before the addictive disorder started. The one exception to this order of onset was that 72 percent of alcohol-abusing males reported that their alcohol use disorder preceded the onset of a mood disorder.

</snip>

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by Alera

This is the first link I checked out, and it is full of medical misinformation.

"All standard antianxiety agents also have sedative effects and in my clinical experience the antianxiety effect does not occur in the absense of these effects . "

It must be a small practice because common medical literature (See L Stein and Francis for refs) state the opposite. That once the sedative side effects wear off, the antianxiety medication still works.

The author of your link also states that many users of benzos will self-medicate. That is only somewhat correct. Some with anxiety self-medicate, as do those with bi-poler disorder, depression, etc. This has very little to do with the medication used, but has a lot to do with the fact they want the mental illness to go away. IN fact, people who are self-medicating are LESS likely to abuse other drugs once they get on the Benzos.

Here is a paper describing how those with anxiety are likely to abuse alcohol. As you will read, the period of time the disorder exists is 10+ years prior to abuse. This goes against what your link states.

From NIH published paper: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_95148608

</snip>

Sorry you feel that way. There is no medical misinformation there. Even professionals have different views. I only posted it to give info I found that was helpful to me. I dont want to debate the issues. I think knowledge is power and there is nothing wrong of seeing all sides of drugs and alcohol and how they effect us.That was the only reason i decided to share it.

I'm 200 days off ativan and still feel horrible. The rebound anxiety it has cause made it way worst for me. And I just listen to my Doctor and didnt abuse Ativan. But Ativan was like taking alcohol in pill form that prolong my symptoms.

Im just sharing what helped me. And by no means trying to push my views on anyone else.
Hope we all Heal soon.

Also I never had any anxiety issues before alcohol or Ativan use.

[shockozulu]

Professionals can have different views. That is why double blind studies etc. are so important. As I pointed out in the link I examined, the professional was only using case studies, which in science is not weighed heavily due to the lack of double blind, that the doctor can give patients cues, that the doctor will see what they expect to see etc.

This IS medical misinformation when compared with published medical literature.

In fact, I found a paper on addiction and these drugs. It was anti-benzos and you know what it said? That for people who had anxiety prior to their treatment with these medicines, they are helpful. At most, they interfered with those patients who would benefit from an alternate type of talk therapy.

To compare halcion as a representation of benzos is just irresponsible. At one point, they mention that to hospitalization of a drug addict for a drug problem, a premise that is stupid on its face.

[shockozulu]

Congrats on your clean time. Abuse of any drug, even those beneficial to others, is dangerous. I'm proud of you.

[RUNVS]

I don't know your history Alera but I think benzos use for long term can negatively effect ones life. This is true for me. I can only speak from my personal experiance. I was making $10k+ a month and had a very active life before benzos. Even with alcohol abuse. During and after Ativan use my quality of life has greatly dimished.

I can barley leave my house now. The 1st 100 days off i was in bed.

I think people should be aware of what these drugs can do to ones life.

I think for very short use they can be life saving. But for longer then a couple of weeks I think you can have some long term negative effects.

Alera thank you for the support its been real hard.

[shockozulu]

I'm sorry you had such serious side effects. That is never good and can happen with any medication. Ativan had a paradoxial reaction for me, and when I took it I was hyper. But Xanax has made me a functional person. I take a low dose but without it I would not have been able to come clean from my DOC due to severe anxiety I was self-medicating.

I never mind hearing case studies as long as they are presented as such, but I do mind when medical 'professionals' claim they are writing a professional paper when not following basic rules.

[skunkape]

I don't believe taking mood altering drugs is the answer. But taking them under supervision is at least better than taking them on your own. I know Xanax is a serious drug of abuse, for my social circle of friends when I was growing up, and it was always a drug I turned to when I was subsituting for my DOC, even before alcohol. My last relapse involved drinking and eating Xanax into oblivion. I woke up the next morning, and said enough was enough. Time to get back in the rooms.

[windysan]

Alera, thanks for the wisdom. I've been to many of the benzophobe sites and I can tell you they are chock full of misinformation. A couple of the benzophobe sites have a cult-like following which is scary. Lots of talk about government spies for the pharmaceutical companies, doctors in cahoots with the devil and lots of other nonsense. Lots of the misinformation in those sites is VERY loosely based on Ashton's case studies. People looking for help on those sites are told not to seek medical help, not to seek treatment, not to trust doctors or addictionologists. Theirs is a freaky world.

[woops]

Hi Windysan/Runvs/Alera
I am going to be checking out the info on ativan/benzos - curious as we have a family member on it for sleep - and would like her to get off - but when she stops she has terrible insomnia. Our doc seems to think she should be able to just stop - have a couple of restless nights and then be OK. But she has tried this and suffers for a couple of nights and then takes ativan again. I have only recently found this site and would appreciate any further info................ from what you write there is a load of controversy over this drug? Can you tell me something about "Ashton" - is this up to date information from a creditable source - where is this research being undertaken?
Any infor from anyone would be very much appreciated - especially from someone with experience of the drug.
Thank you
W

[RUNVS]

I think there are a couple important factors in knowing before stopping cold turkey. How long have you been on the drug and how much you are taking. For me the withdrawal from Ativan was a nightmare and very hard to do.

I had to taper 1/4th of a pill every 7 days to get off and it was still very hard to do. But at least i didnt get seizures by just stopping cold turkey. I tapered off Ativan instead.

I think its very important to dicuss with the Doctor your concerns. My doctor really didnt realize how bad benzos can be for some people until I shared info with him from speacialists.

I still have real bad rebound anxiety from the Ativan and past Alcohol abuse.
I am 203 days off ativan now.

Keep in mine this is just my story. There are people that have stopped Ativan with no major problems.

Keep us updated.

[windysan]

From the info I have gathered over the years I'd have to say that Dr. Heather Ashton's study in the UK is pretty credible. It is based on case studies and if you read it it does make good sense. Ashton ran a benzo clinic in the UK and developed a slow tapering plan using Valium as it has a longer half-life than the other benzos. There is an equivalency chart on her site and directions on how to taper down the dose over a long period of time. Her emphasis is on slow-tapering which for many can be brutal. There are some horror stories out there about people having lots of long-term problems when they kick the benzo habit. There is also LOTS of misinformation out there. I suggest downloading Ashton's manual and giving it to the doctor to read. Many doctors know very little about benzos. Remember that insomnia will not kill a person and insomnia is going to happen for awhile after kicking the benzo habit. For many addicts(benzos, opiates, whatever) insomnia is the last symptom to go away. It's part of the process but you won't die from it. Here is a link to Ashton's study.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

Please keep in mind that many of the "support groups" and "forum sites" out there revolving around this manual are kind of wacky and full of misinformation. Good luck with it.

[RUNVS]

Any update how your family member is doing?

[woops]

Hiya RUNVs and Windysan - many thanks for your helpful replies. RUNVS - I have posted also on the klonopin thread............
Well - we seem to be making some progress in all of this in that the doctor (partner of the first doctor consulted!! ) has now suggested that a slow taper off benzos - should be the next thing to try. I have a feeling he has been doing some research of his own!! LOL Apparently all these drugs vary in half lives - ie - the rate at which they leave the body - and so a long acting drug should be used for an easier taper - and he now suggests valium. The logic being that valium stays in the body for several days and can be reduced without peaks and troughs. I have downloaded Ashton and these too are her recommendations. At least she seems to have carried out some research into these drugs - and hers is the only study I have been able to find on the net so far. If anyone has any medical advice to the contrary I would be so very grateful to hear of them - please do post!
The biggest obstacle now is to persuade her to try! She is scared stiff of life without her pills - they have become a real crutch. For the moment - she is thinking about it ........ its a case of leading a horse to water!!
I think that she has a very real physical addiction here - but also a very strong psychological addiction......... and that is going to be a real problem. As to whether she should even try to come off? Or just stay on as she is in her 60s. She is not on a high dose - 1-2 mg nightly but for about 30 yrs!!!!!!
I have to say what I read at benzo org is not encouraging at all - it is really frightening and I dont want her to read it. The Ashton Manual is fairly reasonable and sounds OK - but the personal stories are something else. Truly horrifying. Maybe I should join the private forum and ask for advice - I just dont know? Should it be the person suffering who should be doing this? Have you any experience of this forum?
RUNVS - did you manage to decrease by a 1/4 of a pill every week and manage to stick to your taper? What sort of withdrawal symptoms did you have - if at all? Should she just try to come straight off ativan - or change over to valium first?? Keeping in mind that she is elderly and has been on ativan for so long - it has to be the least painful way to go that we should be considering.
You know - I am really mad at the original doctors for putting her on these drugs in the first place - apparently she was first put on to cope with a family bereavement - and Ashton states that people should NOT be put on benzos for t his reason.......... If only........... With hindsight its easy enough to criticise. But - its quite frighening to see the number of people now on these drugs for everything from bereavement to anxiety........... and the drugs seem to be getting ever more powerful - apparently xanax is the king - strongest and fastest acting - and possibly the most addicting? Surely there must be other ways?
RUNVS - I am so sorry to hear that you have had such a rough go of it. That is just dreadful that you lost your job because of withdrawal from a drug - rather than the drug use. Almost unbelievable. And for your life to be so diminished......... it all seems so unfair. I hope that your recovery is progressing and that you will soon have more energy and get back to a fulfilling life - surely the lasting legacy of the ativan will finally dissappear and leave you well again. Do you think your doctor now is better informed? I am guessing that you were never warned about the possible side effects of these drugs before you took them? Shouldnt doctors have a responsibility to warn you? I guess - there are doctors - and then there are doctors............
Windysan - how did you finally get off these drugs?
Sorry - for this over long post - its just such a difficult situation that we find ourselves in.....and am very glad to have found this site and your advice.
Woops

[woops]

RUNVS
I have only just noticed in your signature that you were only on ativan for 13 weeks!!!!!!!!!!!! And still these awful effects/withdrawals. Were you prescribed the ativan to help deal with the alcohol problem? My aunt has been on for 30 years - has she any chance at all?
Take care - hopefully things will get better and better...........
Woops

[shockozulu]

Your aunt has a good chance. My mother was addicted to valium for many years and she got off just fine from a taper.

Regarding your Aunt, when I came clean from my pills, I learned that my addiction to taking the pill was quite strong. It was like a smoker reaching for the cigarrette automatically. I recommend that you give her something to put in her mouth at night when she would have taken the pill. I keep little hard candies I like with me where my pills were, and I reach down all the time still and grab one to put in my mouth!

[woops]

Hi Alera
Yep - I think you are spot on. The whole pill thing has to be addressed - not just the physiological bit.
Thank you for your hopefull words............... after all the reading I have been doing - mainly at benzo org - I have felt very disheartened.
So - first she must cross over from ativan to valium............. and then taper down.
Candy seems like a good trade off!! LOL
Thanks, Alera

[geofite]

Originally Posted by windysan

Please keep in mind that many of the "support groups" and "forum sites" out there revolving around this manual are kind of wacky and full of misinformation. Good luck with it.

Please keep in mind that this person is full of misinformation about the "forum sites". He was banned from the site so his perspective is "wacky" and biased.

[geofite]

Withdrawal Reactions from
Benzodiazepines
Excerpt from a Report
by Peter R. Breggin M.D.
2002

Clinical experience and the scientific literature confirm that chronic benzodiazepine use impairs mental function in general (reviewed in Breggin, 1998; Lader and Petursson, 1984; Lucki, Rickels, and Geller, 1986 et al., 1994).

The existence of chronic or persistent adverse effects after withdrawal from the benzodiazepines is confirmed by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (both the 1987 and 1994 editions) which contain the relevant diagnoses: Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Persisting Dementia (292.82). The existence of these diagnoses in this manual confirms that experts in the field consider that the effects are clinically and scientifically demonstrable (see discussion below).

Chronic brain dysfunction can also lead to increased difficulties with disinhibition and loss of impulse control, starting with irritability and mild mood swings, and progressing to more dangerous behavior.

Menkes and Laverty (1996) point out that alprazolam, a short-acting benzodiazepine similar to lorazepam, is especially prone to cause withdrawal reactions that may be long-lasting: "Symptoms usually last 1-6 weeks but may persist for many months, leaving the patient in a vulnerable state." They note that anxiety, depression, "paranoid psychoses" and "delirium" may occur.

Similarly, the American Psychiatric Association (1990) Task Force on Benzodiazepine Dependence, Toxicity, and Abuse observed that short half-life benzodiazepines are prone to produce "intense discontinuation syndromes."

The American Psychiatric Association Task Force (1990) produced a table listing discontinuation symptoms from benzodiazepines in three separate categories: "very frequent, common but less frequent, and uncommon." Very frequent withdrawal symptoms included "anxiety", "agitation", and "irritability", common but less frequent withdrawal reactions included "depression" and uncommon withdrawal reactions included "psychosis", "confusion", "paranoid delusions", and "hallucinations." Noteworthy are the large numbers of citations used to confirm the findings listed in the table. The task force also confirmed that these withdrawal symptoms "may persist up to several weeks (occasionally for months)" (p. 17).

The following two tables from standard sources used in psychiatry summarize many of the withdrawal effects of this class of drugs:

From American Psychiatric Association, Benzodiazepine Dependency, Toxicity and Abuse (1990), Table 3, p. 18

Very Frequent:

• Anxiety
• Insomnia
• Restlessness
• Agitation
• Irritability
• Muscle Tension

Uncommon:

• Psychoses
• Seizures
• Persistent Tinnitus
• Confusion
• Paranoid Delusion
• Hallucinations

From Rapport and Covington Hospital and Community Psychiatry (December 1989), Table I, p. 1278

Emotional / Cognitive:

• Anxiety
• Apprehension
• Fear
• Irritability
• Emotional Lability
• Depression
• Paranoia
• Delusions
• Decreased Memory
• Decreased Concentration

*Perceptual:

• Disorientation
• Depersonalization
• Hallucinations
• Clouded Consciousness
• Metallic Taste
• Paresthesias
• Sensitivity to light, sound, touch, pain
• Feeling of Motion
  
  *order rearranged

Official Scientific Recognition of Benzodiazepine Toxicity and Withdrawal

Benzodiazepine toxicity and withdrawal is so well-established that it has received official recognition in the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (1994) in the form of fifteen categories. Each of these diagnoses encompasses the benzodiazepines which are in fact "sedative", "hypnotic", and "anxiolytic." The fifteen diagnostic categories are:

1. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Withdrawal (292.89)
2. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Withdrawal Delirium (292.81)
3. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Dependence (304.10)
4. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Abuse (305.40)
5. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Intoxication (292.89)
6. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Intoxication Delirium (292.81)
7. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Anxiety Disorder (292.89)
8. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Mood Disorder (292.84)
9. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Persisting Amnestic Disorder (292.83)
10. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Persisting Dementia (292.82)
11. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Psychotic Disorder with Delusions (292.11)
12. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Psychotic Disorder with Hallucinations (292.12)
13. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Induced Sleep Disorder (292.89)
14. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic Sexual Dysfunction (292.89)
15. Sedative, Hypnotic, or Anxiolytic-Related Disorder NOS (Not Otherwise Specified)

A similar set of diagnoses can be found in the earlier edition, the DSM-III-R published in 1987. Only five diagnoses are in the 1987 publication under the following rubrics: Sedative, Hypnotic or Anxiolytic abuse, amnestic disorder, dependence, intoxication and withdrawal delirium. However, these categories can subsume all of the ones found in the DSM-VI and indeed the descriptions in the 1987 edition are sometimes more vivid and detailed.

These DSM categories are produced by a committee of experts in the specific field and therefore represent an attempt to reach a consensus among those most familiar with the subject, in this case benzodiazepine adverse effects. The inclusion of these multiple benzodiazepine-related disorders in the DSM III-R (1987) and DSM-VI (1994) indicates a consensus that benzodiazepine use can cause all of these problems from amnesia and dementia to withdrawal. There can be no doubt, therefore, that the capacity of benzodiazepines to cause a variety of adverse drug reactions and emotional disturbances is well established as a scientific fact within the scientific community and the psychiatric profession. In forensic or medical-legal terms, there should be no Daubert issue concerning the fact that benzodiazepines can cause all of the adverse reactions subsumed under fifteen categories in the DSM-IV.

Patients on long-term benzodiazepines are likely to suffer from many or even all of these disorders. However, patients vary widely in the degree of toxicity and withdrawal reactions that they experience. They will also vary widely in their capacity to understand or describe the adverse drug reactions that they are suffering from.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/breggin3.htm
<!--<table align="center" bgcolor="#000000" border=5 bordercolor=#fffff5><tr><td>[img]images/breggin.gif[/img]</td></tr></table>-->Runvs, your information is spot on an accurate.

[geofite]

Originally Posted by windysan

Alera, thanks for the wisdom. I've been to many of the benzophobe sites and I can tell you they are chock full of misinformation. A couple of the benzophobe sites have a cult-like following which is scary. Lots of talk about government spies for the pharmaceutical companies, doctors in cahoots with the devil and lots of other nonsense. Lots of the misinformation in those sites is VERY loosely based on Ashton's case studies. People looking for help on those sites are told not to seek medical help, not to seek treatment, not to trust doctors or addictionologists. Theirs is a freaky world.

This is complete rubbish and crap. You are the one who was posting crap about politics and pornographic pictures to people who are suffering and in the middle of benzo withdrawal. Your behavior was totally inappropriate and many complaints were made regarding the contents of your posts. The site is not "loosely" based on Ashtons work but solely based on her work. You are the problem and the one who is misrepresenting everything and lying. Anyone who wishes to withdraw from benzos and needs additional support which includes being under their doctors supervision while they taper can find excellent information and mutual support from the members of these groups who are all going through withdrawal and recovery from benzodiazepines.

[windysan]

Posting pictures of bikini-clad wimmens in the "fun thread areas" is hardly porno. As for politics I'd have to say that USA-bashing was the focus of most of those threads and when I stood up for the USA I was considered a heretic as I don't buy into that vast pharmacy/military/right-wing mombo jombo. If you want to continue whining about nonsense then go right ahead. I'm very happy to help others here who want to escape addiction. I don't need to be part of some cult in order to do that. I would rather get advice/help from the medical community and professionals in the field. The forum you speak of is not full of medical professionals although they like to dispense crappy advice posing as such. I believe that some people benefit from medically-prescribed drugs and that includes benzos, anti-depressants, and other drugs. This is the best "support site" I've found. It offers support for drug addicts and not just "accidental addicts". You've posted that same 10-page medical text enough. We've read it. Can't you just cut/paste something else?

[golf99]

I'm 5 days off a 4 year hydro. and xanax nightmare. I would NOT recommend going 'cold-turkey' on Benzo's. You can die. I am very lucky.

[geofite]

Originally Posted by windysan

Posting pictures of bikini-clad wimmens in the "fun thread areas" is hardly porno. As for politics I'd have to say that USA-bashing was the focus of most of those threads and when I stood up for the USA I was considered a heretic as I don't buy into that vast pharmacy/military/right-wing mombo jombo. If you want to continue whining about nonsense then go right ahead. I'm very happy to help others here who want to escape addiction. I don't need to be part of some cult in order to do that. I would rather get advice/help from the medical community and professionals in the field. The forum you speak of is not full of medical professionals although they like to dispense crappy advice posing as such. I believe that some people benefit from medically-prescribed drugs and that includes benzos, anti-depressants, and other drugs. This is the best "support site" I've found. It offers support for drug addicts and not just "accidental addicts". You've posted that same 10-page medical text enough. We've read it. Can't you just cut/paste something else?

There you go again, talking crap and nonsense. This is the problem with you and the reason you were banned. You twist and bullshit what you go on about. Most members are from the USA and you were the one doing the bashing of politics and politicians. Most members were and are too sick to give a crap about anything other than getting off benzos and coping with the symptoms.

[Kahlia]

Originally Posted by geofite

There you go again, talking crap and nonsense. This is the problem with you and the reason you were banned. You twist and bullshit what you go on about. Most members are from the USA and you were the one doing the bashing of politics and politicians. Most members were and are too sick to give a crap about anything other than getting off benzos and coping with the symptoms.

GEOFITE-I MUST agree...ALL I have read that you have posted anywhere is about pages and pages of medical jargon crap about BENZO bull*hit. I am so sick of trying to read a post and there you are again, spouting statistics. WHY don't you find some other FORUM to go and give your mathematical issues to? I personally am tired of reading it all. I have seen several people who have written the same thing. As you say "Crap and Nonsense"...that is YOUR opinion. Mine is that some people NEED medically prescribed medication. I, for one am one . IF you have an ISSUE with that...OOOOPS......As far as being BANNED???? That is so wierd, I am just shaking my head. YOU need to be banned. You are OBSESSED with this issue. You write about this Ashton person like they know about addiction as if they are an addict...are they????? Have they come down off benzo's??? BTW, Have you??? Just wondering. I am just sick of your constant ticker tape parade of information of one statistic after another that not too many people care a rats behind about. Get a REAL Subject a talk about it. This is OLD, REAL OLD......Can we NOW move on, Please???????? Thank you.....Kahlia