XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by windysan

Yep. Barto is doing well as per his update. Glad he made it through. How you been, Run?

Actually I feel I have improved in my short term memory coming back. But to be honest I still feel like Sh*t.

But by staying away from benzos and booze I hope I will feel better one day.

Thankyou for asking. How are you?

[RUNVS]

Heres a story that help me. Maybe it will help someone else. This is just one story doesn't mean this can happen to others.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/corey.htm

[windysan]

This looks like a rare case. I know many people who stopped benzos and were back to normal in a matter of days.

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

Heres a story that help me. Maybe it will help someone else. This is just one story doesn't mean this can happen to others.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/corey.htm

Heres an update on Corey's story he just emailed me today.
"I am fine now, took awhile though. It took about 3 years before I was completely symptom free."

Corey

[Barto]

Corey’s story is interesting and tragic, and should be read by anyone thinking of taking, or continuing to take, these drugs. However, unless I get much, much worse, Corey’s case is way more severe than mine. I still experience symptoms in ripples, but they are further and fewer and much less severe. On the other hand, I am not as lucky as those who felt better after a few days, either. So maybe I’m somewhere in the middle.

Regarding alcohol though, I think Corey is wrong, even in his own case. He says it was a piece of cake, but he also says it landed him in the ER after two weeks, then further caused him to have “a lot more of these attacks.” Then, before he went through alcohol withdrawal, he went on the benzos. So, he really didn’t experience alcohol withdrawal; he switched drugs to avoid it. I don’t fault him for that. Alcohol withdrawal (both physical and emotional) is really tough, and he was following the advise of a doctor. Also, many factors affect withdrawal severity, such as how much one ingested, and for how long. My point is that it can take a long time to get over alcohol. Alcohol withdrawal should not be underestimated! It can be a real bitch for a heavy drinker.

I was thinking earlier about your story, RUN, and I was wondering whether you weren’t still feeling the affects of alcohol also. Forty five weeks off alcohol is great, but it is not so long that the average bear feels at all normal, especially after having drunk heavily for six years. I don’t know whether you go to AA meetings or not, but, if you do, you will no doubt hear many people within their first few years share their personal experience in dealing with sobriety, and likely none will say they are completely well.

I don’t mean to say that there is nothing wrong with benzos, or that they should be taken lightly. I absolutely think they are bad, bad medicine. They work by depressing the central nervous system; they dumb it down; therefore they likely can only mask symptoms; and their withdrawal symptoms are horrific! Still, if someone cannot function without them, then, well, who am I to say.

I think that benzos are really bad news, and anyone thinking of taking, or continuing to take them, should really carefully consider what they are getting into; and that no one should take them unless all other reasonable forms of dealing with the particular problem have been exhausted. Just my opinion.

[1shrtof6]

When I came off of the O.C.'s the doc. put me back on XANAX for my anxiety along with cymbalta. I didn't care too much for the xanax. They made me really braindead but did help with my panic disorder. It seems to be kinda a damned if you do damned if you don't situation for me. I have had this disorder for years now and have had alot of benzo's but often wondered if my disorder has been due to my drug/alcohol abuse. I guess I just have the tendancy to abuse anything addictive so I just try not to take them at all but at times my anxiety get so bad I feel like I am going to lose it. What a life an addict lives.

[windysan]

"Regarding alcohol......He says it was a piece of cake"

You'll find that many in benzoworld say that kicking anything other than benzos is a piece of cake. I find that to be pretty ridiculous and weird.

[liveweyerd]

Alera,

I am prescribed xanax as well. I have had many a debate with myself about them, as so much is presumed and there is so much stigma.
But in the end, actions speak. I can function and live a full life staying on my meds. Without them, I am crippled. I had to look at quality of life; and give myself a chance to have one. Obviously I find it scary that I need them, but the althernative is so much worse.
I have managed to taper off a few times in the past and be okay. But it seems my depression/anxiety is as much a progressive illness as is addiction. I am too scared to get as sick, SICKER than I was last time I decided I was cured and quit the meds. I am afraid I do not have another recovery in me.
sincerely,
live

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by Barto

Corey’s story is interesting and tragic, and should be read by anyone thinking of taking, or continuing to take, these drugs. However, unless I get much, much worse, Corey’s case is way more severe than mine. I still experience symptoms in ripples, but they are further and fewer and much less severe. On the other hand, I am not as lucky as those who felt better after a few days, either. So maybe I’m somewhere in the middle.

Regarding alcohol though, I think Corey is wrong, even in his own case. He says it was a piece of cake, but he also says it landed him in the ER after two weeks, then further caused him to have “a lot more of these attacks.” Then, before he went through alcohol withdrawal, he went on the benzos. So, he really didn’t experience alcohol withdrawal; he switched drugs to avoid it. I don’t fault him for that. Alcohol withdrawal (both physical and emotional) is really tough, and he was following the advise of a doctor. Also, many factors affect withdrawal severity, such as how much one ingested, and for how long. My point is that it can take a long time to get over alcohol. Alcohol withdrawal should not be underestimated! It can be a real bitch for a heavy drinker.

I was thinking earlier about your story, RUN, and I was wondering whether you weren’t still feeling the affects of alcohol also. Forty five weeks off alcohol is great, but it is not so long that the average bear feels at all normal, especially after having drunk heavily for six years. I don’t know whether you go to AA meetings or not, but, if you do, you will no doubt hear many people within their first few years share their personal experience in dealing with sobriety, and likely none will say they are completely well.

I don’t mean to say that there is nothing wrong with benzos, or that they should be taken lightly. I absolutely think they are bad, bad medicine. They work by depressing the central nervous system; they dumb it down; therefore they likely can only mask symptoms; and their withdrawal symptoms are horrific! Still, if someone cannot function without them, then, well, who am I to say.

I think that benzos are really bad news, and anyone thinking of taking, or continuing to take them, should really carefully consider what they are getting into; and that no one should take them unless all other reasonable forms of dealing with the particular problem have been exhausted. Just my opinion.

Very well said!! I completely agree with you. By taking benzos he did avoid symptoms of alcohol withdrawal so did I. I think your right in my personal story alcohol plays a big role in this and theres no doubt in my mind I am suffering from my alcohol abuse also.

Corey's story is just one of many stories I can relate to and it help me so I decided to share it. His story just gives me alot of hope! It also put renewed energy in my recovery.

I think all storys good and bad should be shared. I'm not one to pick story's apart but to see if I can learn from it.

My Mom took a small amount of benzos for 6 months and felt better after a week of stopping. So we are all different and knowledge is power. I hope we all feel better soon.

[RUNVS]

Heres another Story that helps me

18 Month Progress Report

Dear Group~

It has been several months since I last posted, although I have been
still dropping in and reading others' posts from time to time. This
board has been so enormously helpful to me that I can't help but
want to keep coming back, in the hope that I might help others like
I have been helped.

I am almost completely well and back to normal now. This is nothing
short of a miracle. A year ago I would never have believed it
possible.

I hope that what I write here might give others who must pass
through this difficult experience some idea of what to expect. Being
able to read the personal stories of others on this site was
probably the thing that helped me the absolute most. Going through
withdrawal and not knowing what is going on can be utterly
terrifying. It was for me. And compared with others, I was only on
klonopin for a short time at a relatively low dose.

I have been off virtually all drugs for the past 18 months. A
summary of my history is posted in the Files section under Success
Stories: Ken's Success Story. For those of you who are new here,
here is sort of an updated recap of what actually happened, now that
my mind has finally cleared and I have some objective distance:

I took my last klonopin near the end of August 2004. I was at my
wits' end. For the previous two months I had been suffering severe
interdose withdrawal as a result of a young and inexperienced
psychiatrist's prescription which said "take as needed", coupled
with her admonition to take no more than 2 or 3 pills per week, if
absolutely necessary. The idea was to take the med only
occasionally, when I was having problems with panic attacks or
anxiety, which might be only for a brief period of days with perhaps
weeks or months in-between. Up until that two month period I had
used klonopin infrequently, for the past couple of years, perhaps
once or twice a month. But in June of 2004 I had started taking the
klonopin more regularly, as I seemed to be having more anxiety. My
wife had taken klonopin for several years, had not responded well to
the take-as-needed regime, and as a result had convinced her
psychiatrist to allow her to take the klonopin daily. For my wife,
this seemed to have worked, as it appeared to fix the interdose
withdrawal syndrome that had previously been driving her crazy in-
between doses. She was pressuring me that I needed to take the
klonopin on a more regular basis as well, to keep it in my system,
and not go through the withdrawal between doses. I was reluctant to
do this, for reasons that should be obvious to most of you on this
board. However, as an experiment, I upped the dose of klonopin to
maybe 3 times per week, trying to stay within the guidelines the
psychiatrist had given me. I did not want to be taking it on a daily
basis. (Incidentally, my wife still takes a small quantity of
klonopin every day. We have agreed that different people must handle
drugs differently. She definitely would like to not be on it, but
says that after going off it for awhile the anxiety was too great
for her, so for now it still appears to be helping her. We will see
what the future brings.)

At the time I finally decided to stop taking the klonopin I was
suffering severely from the most diverse group of apparently non-
related symptoms I had ever experienced in my life, so much so that
I was at a complete loss as to what it might be. I suspected it
might be the klonopin, but just couldn't understand how one med
could be causing so many problems! Just the sheer number of
different symptoms was bewildering and overwhelming --I truly had
never experienced anything like it before. I think I must have gone
through, at one time or another, just about every symptom
imaginable. And then the terrible anxiety would blow all those
symptoms way out of proportion: All sorts of frightening scenarios
presented themselves, augmented by the heightened fear and
hypervigilance that comes with withdrawal: Did I have some kind of
cancer? Was this multiple sclerosis? Did I have a brain tumor? Was I
having some sort of stroke or heart attack? Was I dying? Would I end
up paralyzed? Brain damaged? Would I not be able to work? These and
many other terrifying possibilities constantly invaded my thoughts.

The symptoms were so bizarre and seemingly so arbitrary and
disconnected that my doctors at times must have thought I was a
hypochondriac, or else delusional or malingering. My heart would
race after the slightest exertion. When I went out in public, or
shopping, or to an appointment I would feel like I was going to
faint or pass out. All sorts of weird digestive problems beset me -
I constantly felt like I was bloated or had to burp, but I couldn't,
so I had to cope a lot with this pain and pressure in my chest.
Antacids, pepcid, other remedies didn't seem to faze it one bit.
Then I lost my appetite and couldn't eat. I lost 10 lbs or more in
the space of a week or two. I had strange tingling and tight
sensations in my head. I was sure I had encephalitis or some kind of
brain disease - what else could possibly be making me feel this way?
My legs or arms would go numb - was I having a stroke? A heart
attack? Every new strange sensation sent me running for the medical
books, or to the doctor, to try and figure out what I might have. I
was tested for H. pylori and ulcers, and all sorts of other things,
but the tests came out negative. Always. My legs and arms were often
weak and aching. I couldn't think clearly, and my memory (especially
short term) became really bad. When I tried to exercise as I had in
the past, I could scarcely run a block. I once described what I was
going through to my doctor as "sheer fright". I thought I knew what
it was like to be scared, until I went through withdrawal and had
all my GABA drained from my system! That was like being thrown
outside in an Arctic wind without any clothes or protection from the
elements.

The fears often were about death, dying, losing control, becoming
paralyzed, or being in severe pain and misery and suffering for the
rest of my life. I felt really weak and ill much of the time, and
exhausted. And then the really strange thing - there were these
periods (I later learned they were called windows) where there was
nothing wrong! For an hour or two, I would feel just fine! Then the
feeling ill and weak and faint would come again, and I would learn
to savor and look forward to those rare windows of relief. I never
knew when they would come, or when they would go.

For several weeks I battled with this overwhelming array of bizarre
symptoms, not knowing what in the world I should do. At one point I
went to the psychiatrist and renewed my prescription for paxil,
which had helped me once in previous years, (or so I had thought).
Alas, that was before klonopin. When I took the paxil with the
klonopin it made things far worse.

I remember that week that I was taking the paxil and klonopin
together. My wife and I had gone shopping and I was walking around
the store, trying to look at things but I simply couldn't focus on
them. I kept feeling like I was going to pass out on the floor. It
was like I was seeing everything through this dense fog. The anxiety
I was also feeling gave the fog sinister proportions - I felt like I
was losing my brain, my ability to think, or see... It was really
scary. Finally I decided that we needed to go home. When I got home
I felt a bit better, but decided that I needed to discontinue the
paxil. Later I learned that when you are going through withdrawal,
its a bad idea to try and fix it with an antidepressant (-your
experience, of course, may be completely different. What I
discovered was that, for me, where the paxil had actually helped
when I wasn't in the midst of interdose withdrawal, withdrawal
changes everything. Withdrawal is like an avalanche that completely
wipes out any beneficial effects the antidepressant might have, and
augments the detrimental effects.)

Before, for some reason, I had been able to get relief, at least
temporarily, from meds. But now I was in a really weird place where
nothing seemed to work, and I could not predict what effects
formerly helpful things I had done in the past, would now have. I
used to find solace in warm baths. Now they made things worse.
Nothing seemed to be working like it did before. I was in some weird
limbo/no-man's land.

The decision, at the end of that August, to discontinue the
klonopin, was one that ultimately required a lot of faith. Things do
not get immediately better, as when you stop taking some other drugs
that are making you sick. As a matter of fact, as I was to discover,
things would actually get worse, for quite a while, before they got
better. I understood this in a cerebral way, because I had been
taught about withdrawal, had had a family member who had struggled
for years trying to kick a drug habit. But having an intellectual
understanding of what might be ahead was nothing like having to go
through it emotionally and physiologically. (Actually the interdose
withdrawal was pretty bad, and once I had an inkling that the
klonopin was what was causing all these weird symptoms, which took
some time to finally figure out, I decided that I wanted no more to
do with this drug.)

Some of you reading this will realize that, comparatively speaking,
I was on a very low dose of klonopin (usually a "pill" for me was
1/2 of a .5 mg tablet) The important thing to understand is that
whatever amount you are taking, klonopin is a tightly-binding drug
that clings tenaciously to your nerve receptors. This means that
even at a relatively low dose, spaced out over time, it can still
build up in your system. I acknowledge now that I was taking a risk
by not tapering. I assumed at the time that I was taking such a low
dose I should just be able to discontinue taking it. For many people
this may have been the case - everyone is different. But it soon
became obvious to me that after I had gone into a full-blown
withdrawal that I may have been one of those who tend to be acutely
sensitive to drugs, and that even on a low dose, I had had more in
my system than I realized.

Now that my head is more clear, I understand that one of the really
risky things about taking benzos is that, over time, they compromise
your ability to think. While it should have been apparent to me that
I was in fact suffering from complications and side-effects of drug
treatment, at the time (because my brain was working at a reduced
capacity) it was not apparent at all. One of the difficult things
about being on drugs is that you are never sure if symptoms are the
result of the drug or a "legitimate" illness. It definitely makes
diagnosis, and life, more complicated. Part of my decision to get
off the drugs completely was a conviction that until I had the drugs
out of my system, I would not know if my problems were drug- or
something-else- related.

I told my psychiatrist about the problems I was having. Her
recommendation was to start taking the klonopin on a daily basis,
like my wife was. I gave this serious thought, then decided against
it.

The following month, September, beset with all the full-blown
withdrawal symptoms I could possibly imagine, I went to see my
regular doctor (G.P.) to see if he could offer some help. I had the
shakes. I felt often like I was dying, I had no desire or motivation
to do the things I normally did, everything was a chore and an
effort, and life itself seemed to have lost its meaning, all the joy
was gone.

At the time I didn't really trust my psychiatrist any more. I told
my G.P. of all my wierd, bizarre symptoms, including the fact that I
didn't think it was just a bug because I didn't seem to be running a
fever. He checked me out, assigned some labwork, and then after
discussing my suspicions that it might be interdose withdrawal, he
told me that he really didn't think it was the klonopin. He simply
said he thought I had some kind of bug and that I would soon get
over it. Suffice to say, I don't think he was very helpful. I pushed
him on the withdrawal issue, and asked him if that actually turned
out to be the true cause, if they had any provisions to help me
through it. He said essentially no, and that I should go back to
the "mental health" dept, and he recommended that I follow my
psychiatrist's advice, to take the klonopin on a daily basis, to
keep it in my system.

Following my conscience, I decided that this was not good advice,
and also decided to get away from the medical establishment and try
and give my body its best shot at healing itself. -Because I had
faith that ultimately it knew how, and, given the right
circumstances, would be able to do just that. (In the meantime I had
found this site, and as I said, I think the thing the helped me the
most through all this was to be able to finally hear the truth. -The
truth about what realistically to expect. -That it might take a long
time, longer than I had expected, but that ultimately one day I
would wake up and realize that the nightmare was over. By the way,
if you are going through withdrawal, the material available at this
site is of inestimable value. It is priceless. Search the archives,
search the postings, search the files. Like me, if you are diligent,
you will find the answers to your questions. I found Rik Roberts
writings and postings especially helpful, but there were lots of
other folks here too that had equally valuable things to say. Also
extremely helpful to me were Heather Ashton's writings and all the
other materials at www.benzo.org.uk)

The next 12 months were really hard. It was hard to work. It was
hard to think. It was hard to get out of the house. It was hard to
get together with people. Man, it was hard to do anything but obsess
about the withdrawal illness. Once when we had guests over I had to
excuse myself and go lie down because I felt so weak and faint. It
was embarrasing, to say the least. We explained afterward to them
that I was having an "adverse med reaction" but I'm not sure they
really appreciated what I was going through.

After going through all this for what seemed eternity, it started to
seem like I had always been ill, and that I would always be ill. It
seemed to be going on for so long that I was in a state of altered
reality - I had forgotten what it was like to be well. Things were
definitely feeling very unreal. I later learned that this is what is
called derealization, and depersonalization - when nothing seems
right, and everything starts to look, and feel, distorted or wrong.

I did my best to get my mind on other things, to distract myself, to
work, to occupy my time and thoughts, but there were days I simply
had to throw in the towel. I was in a lot of pain, and the anxiety
was tremendous. I kept wondering if I was doing the right thing. I
kept wanting to go back to the doctors and see if they couldn't give
me something to speed up the process, or if I was being unwise by
not having more tests done to rule out possible morbid illnesses.
Ultimately, however, I always came back to the thought, "no,
sometimes we do things in life that may hardly take any thought to
do, but which cause us to have to go through a long recovery. I have
to be patient. This time there is no shortcut. Shortcuts will just
prolong the agony." -How easy it is, for example, to break your leg
in a skiing or sporting accident. How much longer than that brief
moment is it going to take to heal? And you really can't do a whole
lot to speed up the process of healing that broken leg. --The same
with withdrawal.

The body, I learned, is an incredibly complex network of
interrelated systems that all depend on each other. When we take
drugs such as klonopin, over a period of time, the impact on those
systems is deep and far-reaching, and, just like breaking a leg, can
take the body considerable time to heal. I was to be continuously
amazed, throughout the recovery process, not only of how many myriad
symptoms withdrawal can cause; not only of how many of your body
systems and processes are ultimately impacted by the drug; but also
I was continually amazed at how long it can take for your body to
sort everything out and get it back it its proper place. At times, I
thought to myself, "By my ignorance, I have caused my body an
incredible amount of work, and myself an incredible amount of
suffering."

The good news is this: For the past several months, I have had days
now when I have felt wonderful. I have had days when I have been
able to almost forget how sick I was this past year or so. Although
I still have moments, and symptoms that are taking a long time to
finally vanish (the digestive problems), I can at last see that I am
now much more well than ill. The day before yesterday I actually
felt excited about life! Boy, was that a strange feeling, after
having been numbed with flattened emotions and beset with incredible
anxiety and fear, and depression, for so long.

Often people posting here will make a comment like "the grass is
greener now," or "I can see and feel much more clearly now,
everything is so vivid, all my senses seem to be heightened." Well,
I can tell you now, myself, that that is exactly what happens when
you finally get through this. And it only gets better. You never
appreciate regaining your equilibrium so much as when you have lost
it, seemingly forever, and then somehow, miraculously, find it
again. It is something you will have to experience to believe.

I'm sorry this is so long. Part of the process of complete recovery,
though, has been to get back to life and to be able to forget
about "the illness" for a time. That is why I have been away for so
long: I had to go out and find life again.

We all have seasons in our lives. This past winter, especially for a
Californian like me, has been exceptionally dark and cold, with very
long nights, and very short days, and I have missed the warmth of
the sun. But it is now nearly Spring here again, and as Shelley (the
poet) once said:

"If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind?"



Love and healing to all~

Sincerely,

Ken (Reflections333)

[windysan]

I have a friend who was eating handfuls of opiates, benzos(all flavors), and soma for about 3 years. He kicked in jail. He stayed there for about 2 weeks. He did the normal shake/rattle/roll for the first few days then when he got out he was fine. Crazy how that works. Some people take only a tiny bit for a few weeks and have major problems for years. Some people abuse the hell out of them for years and are fine is a week or two. Strange.

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by windysan

Some people take only a tiny bit for a few weeks and have major problems for years. Some people abuse the hell out of them for years and are fine is a week or two. Strange.

This is so true.

[Barto]

Windy, Yeah, I think some of the benzo folks have blinders on. Of course, as you say, we are all different, so I suppose they are reporting the way it is for them. This being so, you would think that a qualifying statement to that effect would be warranted, instead of broad statements like benzos are worse than other drugs. Actually, I really can’t tell which is worse, even in my case. It’s been over 15 years since I withdrew from cocaine and alcohol (simultaneously), so, who knows.

Run, thanks for the complimentary words on my post. I actually tried to write what I believed to be true very carefully so as not to rile anyone up. Nevertheless, I thought would return here to find myself flamed. So, thanks. I hope everyone feels better, too.

Regarding my benzo situation, it’s been just over seven weeks and I feel pretty good now. The ringing in my ears is very faint when I hear it at all, and I really only notice it when I’m concentrating on it (what, self-absorbed, me?). I should note that I am off coffee, and drinking lots of water and a little green tea. I tried Atkins (the induction phase), and I couldn’t handle it for more than a few days. As a result, though, I have cut way down on the carbs. I think this helps a lot, but it took a few days to break the carb cravings. I am back to working out, and not having any muscle cramps at all. It feels great. I caught a cold or flu bug, so I didn’t get my final w/d massage. I guess I have it to look forward to.

PS. Does anyone know why don't I get email when I subscribe to a thread?

[Buzz Kilowatt]

Barto,

It's entirely possible that the hearing loss is environmental, not drug-related. The only way to know for sure is to have your hearing tested by an audiologist.

I had been taking relatively small amounts of HC for years. I have constant tinnitus (ringing in both ears). Some days it is better than others. The onset was about age 45.

I panicked a bit when I heard about Rush Limbaugh's hearing loss, which was related to pain meds. Very few people realize that chronic use of Tylenol (acetaminophen) can cause permanent loss and is a frequent culprit. That's why I eventually chose Vicoprofen (ibuprofen based) instead of Lortab or Vicoden as my DOC.

Nonetheless, I had my hearing tested and asked if if they could determine the cause. The audiologist said mine was certainly environmental. I guess it was a bit of a relief, but not much of one, since it can't be cured.

When I was in college I worked at the GM assembly plant because they paid well. I remember not being able to sleep for the ringing in my ears. I love my music and I like it loud. The doc asked if I hunted and I said I did - how did he know? He said he could tell based upon the ear that was most effected which shoulder I held the shotgun on. Geez, I only go once a year and always use ear protection . . . . The ears are delicate organs.

Gotta add that the tinnitus is a lot better since I quit HC 3 months ago. But mine never goes away completely. There are organic causes of tinnitus (infection, etc.) so it is a good idea to eliminate those too.

Buzz

[windysan]

I was a punk rawker back in the 80's....I can't hear a damned thing. I blame the Butthole Surfers for my hearing loss.

[Paul83]

From an ex-Touch & Go employee - those butthole surfers are a bunch of assholez.

[windysan]

What is Touch and Go?

[Paul83]

the original record label they were on and subsequently screwed over on contractual obligations once they started getting big

[windysan]

Gotcha. I also blame the Dead Kennedys, Corrosion of Conformity, The Minutemen, Seven Seconds, Bad Brains......all that good stuff. Shoulda put some cotton in my ears. Young and dumb, ya know.

[Barto]

Thanks for the reply Buzz,

I thought about this being something to do with age, but because it is such a common symptom of benzo withdrawal, and because it is still diminishing, I am classifying it as a w/d symptom for now. Today it is the best it has been. It’s pretty much gone. However, if it returns, I will be seeing a specialist.

We used to hit the punk clubs in the late seventies. I was mostly a rocker, but lots of wild women were into the punk scene in 1970’s NYC. Actually, I even went to a few discos. What a difference a couple of decades makes, huh?

[windysan]

Barto,

Glad you are doing better. It does take some time to get back to "normal"...whatever that means. I think a lot of it is the "newness" of being clean. We experience things that other "normal people" have experienced all their lives. We just numbed everything with the garbage we put in our systems.

[RUNVS]

Valium (Diazepam) vs. Klonopin (Clonazepam) in Benzodiazepine Withdrawal
by Dr. Reg Peart Victims of Tranquilizers

About 20 different drugs, including diazepam, clonazepam,
barbiturates and other non-benzodiazepine drugs have been used for treating
benzodiazepine withdrawals with varying degrees of success or failure.
Diazepam is the most commonly used drug and has the highest success rate
for the reasons given below, but because of the large inter-individual
variability of response to benzodiazepines, there is no “one size fits all”
solution to the withdrawal problem.

Diazepam and clonazepam, like all benzodiazepine drugs, were found to
have five therapeutic actions, i.e. anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, anticonvulsant,
amnesic and hypnotic. Diazepam was marketed in the mid 1960’s for all five
therapeutic actions; while clonazepam was developed and researched in the
late 1960’s and early 1970’s and marketed in the mid 1970’s primarily as an
anxiolytic and anticonvulsant.

Any drug with similar therapeutic spectrum to the above will be both cross
tolerate and cross dependent with the benzodiazepines and in principle will be
of some help in benzodiazepine withdrawal. As well as the therapeutic
actions, drugs with long half-lives are essential to prevent interdose
withdrawals and to produce a helpful accumulation of the parent drug.

In a few benzodiazepines the metabolites of the parent drug are also
therapeutically active with the same five therapeutic actions. Of these only
diazepam and chlordiazepoxide (Librium) have long half-lives for the parent
drug and for the active metabolites. Librium is most commonly used for
alcohol withdrawal and diazepam for a range of drug withdrawal problems.

The active metabolites of diazepam are:

1) Desmethyldiazepam – marketed as clorazepate (Tranxene) and
prazepam (Centrax).
2) Oxazepam – marketed as Serenid
3) Temazepam – marketed as Normison/Euhypnos

The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200
hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action
of diazepam. It takes up to eight weeks for most of the accumulated drugs to
be eliminated from the body. This "umbrella" of the benzodiazepinesa is the main
reason for the success of diazepam tapering. The high accumulation levels
produced by the diazepam active metabolites also reduces the probability of
tolerance problems during tapering.

There is no obvious reason why about 10% of the people have problems with
diazepam tapering, but it is sometimes due to one or more of the following:

1) Incorrect equivalent dose – the values quoted by Ashton, et. al.
are those found to be effective in benzodiazepine withdrawal
and should in principle compensate for any difference in
binding of the benzodiazepines to either the same or different
benzodiazepine receptors. There values are not necessarily the
same as therapeutically effective doses, but sometimes are.

2) Poorly planned or too short a period for the exchange from
another benzodiazepine to diazepam. Mild daytime sedation at
the end of a 2-3 weeks exchange suggests the equivalent dose is
correct.

3) Failure to maximize accumulation of diazepam used and its
metabolites – it takes about four weeks to achieve 90% accumulation,
i.e. four weeks after exchange.

4) Tapering too fast. Each person should find the rate suitable to
themselves. A good starting guide is 2 ½ % of the initial dose/week.
The rate for the last 1/3 of the taper should be reduced to ½ of that for
the first 2/3.

Clonazepam is one of the nitro-benzodiazepines series, i.e. nitrazepam,
flunitrazepam, clonazepam, and nimetazepam. It has a half-life of 20-50
hours and accumulates from 1.5 to 3 times the daily dose level. Most of it is
eliminated from the body in 5–10 days. Along with triazolam, clonazepam
has the highest incidence of side effects/adverse reactions of the
benzodiazepines.

An important difference between diazepam and clonazepam is that
clonazepam does not produce active metabolites. Withdrawal symptoms
increase markedly with accumulation of clonzepam, much of which is due to
action of the inactive metabolites as well as the parent drug. This withdrawal
symptom problem can be minimized at dose levels below 3 mg/day.

In most countries, diazepam is marketed in 2 mg, 5 mg, and 10mg tablets and
solution yielding 0.1 mgs or less. Clonazepam is marketed only as 0.5 mg.
and 2 mg. (in the US it is produced as 0.125 mg, 0.25 mg, 0.50 mg, 1.0 mg,
and 2.0 mg tablets). Hence for many, the option of using clonazepam will not
be available for practical reasons.

Very few papers have been published on the use of clonazepam in
benzodiazepine withdrawals compared with many on the use of diazepam;
hence it is not possible to make an assessment of their relative merits.
Clonazepam meets three out of four of the criteria (1. The five therapeutic
actions, 2. A long half-life, and 3. Accumulation) and it may well be suitable
for a minority – it’s a “black art” not a science.

N.B. It has been reported that diazepam produced by generic suppliers can
vary by as much as 20% of the stated dose from batch to batch. If so, in order
to avoid possible dose variations, Valium as produced by Roche should be used in diazepam tapering – it is more expensive.

[Beachbabe]

Anyone that is REALLY serious about getting off of benzos needs to check out the "Ashton Manual"

It is a godsend. It is a taper system used for safe detox. Getting off benzos is hell but with this gradual taper it is relatively pain free. Considering how god awful benzos are.

Please, see the Ashton Manual. Just Goggle it. It is the bomb!

[windysan]

It is too bad that most real addicts can't taper anything.

[RUNVS]

N.B. It has been reported that diazepam produced by generic suppliers can
vary by as much as 20% of the stated dose from batch to batch. If so, in order
to avoid possible dose variations, Valium as produced by Roche should be used in diazepam tapering – it is more expensive.

I think the key here, if you use one pecticular kind of generic diazapam, then stick to that kind for the remainder of your taper.

Don't keep changing to different generic providers. If you started with Roche for your taper then stay with Roche.


Keep in my mind there are many ways to taper. I did a direct taper from Ativan. But I feel this info may be helpful for some.