XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[woops]

Originally Posted by Barto

I am considering the switch over.

That makes sense to me the cross over to valium - speak like Yoda I do!!

Barto - you will be just fine.

I crossed over to 30 mg valium from 3 mg ativan - found it was too much and adjusted to 25 mg. That was about right I reckon for me.
So - if you are at 1 mg xanax - then crossing over to 20 mg valium might well be too much - so 10 mg might be just right? It its not you will soon know - and then you can adjust up a wee bit? Might need to experiment a little before you get the balance right.
Then cutting by about 10% every 10 days to a fortnight seems to work.
Did for me.
And taking valium once a day is so convenient (no point taking it more often than once in 24 hours, would just be a waste of time - cos of long half life) - I took it at night as part of bedtime routine - its psychologically so freeing - no more thinking about pills during the day - leaves you free to get on with life. I think you might notice that you may well feel so much better once you have got used to the valium - as you will have eliminated all interdose withdrawal symptoms that occur with xanax.
I managed to continue to work and carry on my life as normal during this taper.
People will tell you that this last 10 mg valium is the hardest part. The lower you get the more difficult it all becomes. But that was simply not so for me. And when I finally popped that last valium at .5 mg (tapered down to .5 mg - didnt jump at 1 mg and also did not mess about with trying to get lower than .5 mg) - it was unnoticed. Quite unremarkable. I was finally free.
Now - this is all anecdotal - just one person's experience - but you may find something similar during your own taper. I hope so. I think that Tex is getting on just fine - no real problems and hopefully that will be so for the rest of his taper. But - no matter - you just have to take it as it comes at you ..................... and you'll get there.
Perhaps RUNVS will advise re his own position here for comparison?

We'll all be lining the route as you finally run down the home straight.................. YES................. eyes on the prize.

You are doing so well - I cannot see that anything will now stop you - soon be free of this horrible drug.

Best

woops

[RUNVS]

Valium (Diazepam) vs. Klonopin (Clonazepam) in Benzodiazepine Withdrawal
by Dr. Reg Peart Victims of Tranquilizers

About 20 different drugs, including diazepam, clonazepam,
barbiturates and other non-benzodiazepine drugs have been used for treating
benzodiazepine withdrawals with varying degrees of success or failure.
Diazepam is the most commonly used drug and has the highest success rate
for the reasons given below, but because of the large inter-individual
variability of response to benzodiazepines, there is no “one size fits all”
solution to the withdrawal problem.

Diazepam and clonazepam, like all benzodiazepine drugs, were found to
have five therapeutic actions, i.e. anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, anticonvulsant,
amnesic and hypnotic. Diazepam was marketed in the mid 1960’s for all five
therapeutic actions; while clonazepam was developed and researched in the
late 1960’s and early 1970’s and marketed in the mid 1970’s primarily as an
anxiolytic and anticonvulsant.

Any drug with similar therapeutic spectrum to the above will be both cross
tolerate and cross dependent with the benzodiazepines and in principle will be
of some help in benzodiazepine withdrawal. As well as the therapeutic
actions, drugs with long half-lives are essential to prevent interdose
withdrawals and to produce a helpful accumulation of the parent drug.

In a few benzodiazepines the metabolites of the parent drug are also
therapeutically active with the same five therapeutic actions. Of these only
diazepam and chlordiazepoxide (Librium) have long half-lives for the parent
drug and for the active metabolites. Librium is most commonly used for
alcohol withdrawal and diazepam for a range of drug withdrawal problems.

The active metabolites of diazepam are:

1) Desmethyldiazepam – marketed as clorazepate (Tranxene) and
prazepam (Centrax).
2) Oxazepam – marketed as Serenid
3) Temazepam – marketed as Normison/Euhypnos

The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200
hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action
of diazepam. It takes up to eight weeks for most of the accumulated drugs to
be eliminated from the body. This "umbrella" of the benzodiazepinesa is the main
reason for the success of diazepam tapering. The high accumulation levels
produced by the diazepam active metabolites also reduces the probability of
tolerance problems during tapering.

There is no obvious reason why about 10% of the people have problems with
diazepam tapering, but it is sometimes due to one or more of the following:

1) Incorrect equivalent dose – the values quoted by Ashton, et. al.
are those found to be effective in benzodiazepine withdrawal
and should in principle compensate for any difference in
binding of the benzodiazepines to either the same or different
benzodiazepine receptors. There values are not necessarily the
same as therapeutically effective doses, but sometimes are.

2) Poorly planned or too short a period for the exchange from
another benzodiazepine to diazepam. Mild daytime sedation at
the end of a 2-3 weeks exchange suggests the equivalent dose is
correct.

3) Failure to maximize accumulation of diazepam used and its
metabolites – it takes about four weeks to achieve 90% accumulation,
i.e. four weeks after exchange.

4) Tapering too fast. Each person should find the rate suitable to
themselves. A good starting guide is 2 ½ % of the initial dose/week.
The rate for the last 1/3 of the taper should be reduced to ½ of that for
the first 2/3.

Clonazepam is one of the nitro-benzodiazepines series, i.e. nitrazepam,
flunitrazepam, clonazepam, and nimetazepam. It has a half-life of 20-50
hours and accumulates from 1.5 to 3 times the daily dose level. Most of it is
eliminated from the body in 5–10 days. Along with triazolam, clonazepam
has the highest incidence of side effects/adverse reactions of the
benzodiazepines.

An important difference between diazepam and clonazepam is that
clonazepam does not produce active metabolites. Withdrawal symptoms
increase markedly with accumulation of clonzepam, much of which is due to
action of the inactive metabolites as well as the parent drug. This withdrawal
symptom problem can be minimized at dose levels below 3 mg/day.

In most countries, diazepam is marketed in 2 mg, 5 mg, and 10mg tablets and
solution yielding 0.1 mgs or less. Clonazepam is marketed only as 0.5 mg.
and 2 mg. (in the US it is produced as 0.125 mg, 0.25 mg, 0.50 mg, 1.0 mg,
and 2.0 mg tablets). Hence for many, the option of using clonazepam will not
be available for practical reasons.

Very few papers have been published on the use of clonazepam in
benzodiazepine withdrawals compared with many on the use of diazepam;
hence it is not possible to make an assessment of their relative merits.
Clonazepam meets three out of four of the criteria (1. The five therapeutic
actions, 2. A long half-life, and 3. Accumulation) and it may well be suitable
for a minority – it’s a “black art” not a science.

Valium (Diazepam) vs. Klonopin (Clonazepam) in Benzodiazepine Withdrawal
by Dr. Reg Peart Victims of Tranquilizers




I do know people that successfully taper of klonopin although many believe it i s a lot more difficult. But if I couldn't get valium for taper. I would most likely do a Water Titration Method if I had to do a direct taper off of klonopin.

[woops]

Barto is having a bad time of it just now - have you seen his post?
Can you help out with the argument for using valium rather than klonopin? Or is klonopin just as good? What is the concensus on the island?
How about the use of AD during taper?
woops

[RUNVS]

"The nervous system in benzodiazepine withdrawal is in a very raw and fragile state and it will take time for it to recover. Taking antidepressants (or any other drugs) may impede that recovery and create new problems and are therefore best avoided IMO."

This was according to Ray Nimmo

I agree with him on this quote.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

"The nervous system in benzodiazepine withdrawal is in a very raw and fragile state and it will take time for it to recover. Taking antidepressants (or any other drugs) may impede that recovery and create new problems and are therefore best avoided IMO."

This was according to Ray Nimmo

I agree with him on this quote.

I don't.

[jbit]

What a great thread. I just scanned through the benzo book and wished i would have read it before my benzo detox.

5 months ago i did a white knuckle detox and i thought i was going to kill myself. I went from a daily intake of 50mg/valium, 200mg/Oxycontin, 12/beers, and lots of caffeine ... to absolutely nothing. I don't suggest this method to anyone!!! The opiates and alcohol left my system rather quickly (3-4 days), but, the benzos stayed for what seemed an eternity.

My vital signs were through the roof for several weeks. It took a month before i could really function, and 2-3 months before I felt "normal" again.

The experience has left a deep psychological scar. Although thats helping me stay clean.

[Doug]

-just a reminder-

It's getting close to closing time for this thread, (500 replies is the magic number) but you'll be able to start a "Part 2" if you wish.

[Doug]

Part 2 can be found here: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-part-2-a.html