XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[woops]

"[QUOTE=TexasDumb;1215959]WOOPS,

Your taper schedule is EXACTLY what I convinced my doctor to taper me.

It took a while to convince her, but I finally succeeded..

I am glad it worked for you. That gives me more confidence that it will hopefully WORK easily for me, too.

I have posted these same photos on other threads, but I wanted to make sure YOU saw them.

Keep on Truckin'"










Fab photos, Tex! I'll have to start retaliating with some of my own!! LOL

Glad to hear you are on track with a taper plan............ and there is no reason why it shouldnt work for you too. Nice n easy................
I really got thro the taper with very little pain............but kept my head down and got on with it. Tried not to dwell on it - or think about it too much - just became part of life's routine - like cleaning my teeth. Typically I would feel the effects of a cut in dose 3 - 4 days after the reduction - it would last for about 48 hours and then everything would settle down. I got kinda used to it. I think that this is when valium is the ideal benzo to taper with - the long half life allows for a gentle come down as opposed to the sort of "blitz" effect of reducing something like xanax with its horribly short half life. It must be almost impossible to taper xanax I think.
Anyhoo - you will taper down with valium or klonopin? Klonopin has a longish half life so its not quite so dire as xanax - but I understand klonopin to bind very tightly to receptors and so present problems............. But really - I dont know how much truth there is in all these explanations - I'm sure RNVS can provide more info............as does Ten above.
So - Tex - when are you getting down to taper? Have you actually started the process as yet? I think you will get a real blast when you start - you have control and you are finally getting a grip on this addiction........ and that iis the biggest hurdle in the whole thing - I think. Gives you a humungous psychological boost ................. and you can finally realise that you can get off these things for good..... and no longer be a slave to the pills. Cry freedom!! LOL Great feeling................ so am looking forward to hearing about your progress.
Take care............ eyes on the prize!

Woops

[windysan]

Woops, you are a tough chick. All the taperers out there are tough. I'm one of those addicts who can't keep a pocketful of pills without them disappearing quickly. One feels good......ten feels really good. I was a miserable failure at tapering. Of course I had an endless supply at the time and that didn't help much. I really had no will to quit either. I had to roll the dice and take my chances in detox/rehab. I'm very thankful to be alive today.

Happy Mardi Gras everyone.

[woops]

Aye - Shrove Tuesday for us tomo.............. followed by Ash Wednesday

"Remember, man, that thou art dust
And unto dust thou shalt return." !!

and 6 long weeks of penance!! LOL

Maybe we will have some philosophical topics to discuss - I do believe that Ten raised the subject of transubstantiation.................. could be an interesting debate?! LOL How's about the Prodigal Son??

A Michelangelo to put you in the mood. (Hey - where did the carnival go?!)

The Penitent Magdalen.

[TexasDumb]

WOOPS and WindySan,

WOOPS, thanks for your encouragements and compliments on my photos. I look forward to seeing more of yours...

I have already started my taper schedule. I am into week three of about a 5-6 month slow taper based on Ashton's Chart, that my doctor agreed to for me.
And I have gone to the switch to Valium from Xanax. My doctor switched me too fast off the XANAX, but I got through it.

I agree XANAX may be the very hardest taper for me too, because with it's short half-life and my "speedy little metabolism" it was terrible for me....

I tried C/T from 3 mg. XANAX a day, a month or so ago, and it d**n near killed me...go back and read my first newbie posts and you will see the agony I was in.....

But now, with this Valium taper, I have not even felt ANY effects after a reduction...I am even not having to take the total dose prescribed some days.

But, luckily, I was only on XANAX for about 4-5 months. Way too long, I know, but better than years..

And I can't fathom why people get their feelings hurt or feel disrespected so easily on here by PEOPLE THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW OR FOLLOW THEIR POSTS/PROGRESS.

If someone I had never heard of wrote that they thought I was the "sorriest Ba**ard ever," it would make NO difference to me.

But, if YOU, or Ten, BARTO, WindySan, Mikiglen, RUNVS, and others I follow and keep up with their posts, it would hurt my feelings some.
I guess because I feel like I kinda KNOW y'all and consider you guys/gals my FRIENDS!

Hey WindySan, I respect YOUR way of getting off these things too. ONLY you know YOU, and you know what is best for you.

Me personally, I want off so badly and, at least at the present, CAN follow the taper schedule.

But everyone is different.
I am LIKE you in one regard. I have always been an "overdoer." I also figure if ONE is GOOD, then 50 OUGHT to be better.
I'll catch myself wanting to purchase 3 or more of the same shirts or sweaters - just because the price is marked down so much..... Like, keep some for later, which never comes, ha.

Anyway, I like you folks, and thanks for being here for me,

[woops]

Great news to hear you are going ahead and so well with your taper.
Yep - I have now read your previous posts to remind me - and believe me I know how that all felt. Altho I was not ever on xanax (thank God) I was prescribed ativan and my introduction to this whole sorry mess was when I went c/t. Oh - it was so bad. 2 days into c/t I was sitting at the computer - shaking so hard.............. dreadful nausea, headaches, sweats............. och - you know. Luckily I found help on the internet that evening - and got the best advice and support from someone who literally carried me psychologically thro the next few days until I was "strong" enough to get my head together enough to transfer to valium and get on a taper. I was told to get to my doctor first thing the next morning and get re-instated fast on the ativan. Which I did. (The threat of seizures worked!!) Luckily I had a really informed doc who took out her BNF and suggested the transfer to valium and taper by 10% every 10 days. And the rest they say - is history!! I will be forever grateful to that man I met on the internet that night.
So - taper was fine for me................... OK - not without some problems - but overall fine.
Like you (I think) - I found the valium was "kind" and the long half life put a stop to all the interdose withdrawal symptoms that I have been having with ativan. I began to sleep well, eat well and altho very "fatigued" I managed to continue with my job and with family life........... So - all those horror stories are not necessarily the whole picture - yep - some people have horrific withdrawals - but lots of us have a very manageable taper. And I have a feeling that there is a huge psychological element to the whole thing. I think Windysan will agree with that. Dont dwell on it - just get on with it - and get on with life. Altho I do recognise that for a minority it is sheer hell. But you sound much more like me and I am sure you will do just fine.
Great that you got a doc to prescribe valium - I understand that is not always easy in the US. So - everything looking good - steady as she goes!
Eyes on the prize!!
Woops



My pics are not in your class at all!
but perhaps this will give you a wry smile?

[Barto]

Originally Posted by woops

That is why I don't look that that! LOL. We'll see if it is impossible to taper straight off Xanax. Strike that. We'll see if it is possible for me to taper straight off Xanax. Strike that, too. We’ll see if I feel a desire to crossover to valium before I have tapered completely off Xanax (which is what I am doing it now).

[woops]

Take care, Barto - good luck.
Do you not suffer from interdose withdrawals - or do you take xanax several times a day?
How far have you managed to taper so far?
woops

[Barto]

Originally Posted by woops

… my introduction to this whole sorry mess was when I went c/t. Oh - it was so bad. 2 days into c/t I was sitting at the computer - shaking so hard.............. dreadful nausea, headaches, sweats............. ouch - you know. Luckily I found help on the internet that evening - and got the best advice and support from someone who literally carried me psychologically thro the next few days …

This I can relate to.

:

[Barto]

Originally Posted by woops

Take care, Barto - good luck.
Do you not suffer from inter-dose withdrawals - or do you take Xanax several times a day?
How far have you managed to taper so far?

So far so good. Thanks for asking. I am not sure what inter-dose withdrawal actually feels like. I am interested to know though. And yes, I take Xanax three times a day.

The only thing I feel while tapering that didn’t feel before is that I sleep lighter. I get up to go to the bathroom a couple to a few times during the night. But I know it may get harder as I get lower. I plan to continue to take extra good care of my health as I go. I may even use a razor blade to cut halves into quarters. If that doesn’t work, I may try valium.

The thing that worries me about crossing over to valium is that I have heard different equivalencies referenced; and that Ashton’s chart reflects a double dose of valium. I have read, and been told, that 1 mg. of Xanax is equal to 10 mg valium. I think I even read this on the benzo.org.uk website.

Ten (our group's science expert ),can one tell for certain what the equivalencies are? Do you think the individual’s physiology matters here?

[woops]

Sounding good!
1 mg xanax is actually equivalent to 20 mg valium - as per Ashton (page 6 of her Manual) and the benzo.org.uk site. Benzo Island and benzobuddies concur.
Wonder what Ten's view is - but I think this is an inexact science - I would treat it as a guide - nothing set in stone. We are all so different and adjustments must be made for each individual?
When I crossed over from 3 mg ativan - the valium equivalent (Ashton) was 30 mg of valium (1 mg lorazepam = 10 mg valium). But I found that was too much and I immediately cut to 25 mg of valium and was quite OK. So - treat it as a guide - and feel your way? They are so different in respect of their half lives and valium is so "forgiving" in that the half life is as long as 100/200 hours and gives lots of leeway. You only have to take the valium once a day to maintain a steady serum level. Unlike xanax where it is so hard to keep blood levels constant. Dosing 3 times a day in an attempt to keep serum levels steady. I had an occasion during taper when I was away from home for 2 nights - I had forgotten my valium - was terrified of withdrawals - but never suffered any - because of this very long half life. Just took my dose when I got home and was perfectly fine - the odd twinge - but nothing more!
Hope RUNVS will see this thread and post his views too.
I think you might find, Barto, that you would not need the full equivalent amount of valium as stated in Ashton - especially at the higher levels. People can be on such high amounts of xanax that they literally could not take the equivalent amount of valium. 6 mg of xanax would be 120 mg valium! YIKES!
Did you ever hear of a guy - Jack Hobson Dupont - who tapered down off xanax (I think) by way of valium - a couple of years ago on the benzo org site - and has now published a book on his recovery - and allows you to read it for free online? You can download and read. It's a great read and can highly recommend.
I will go and find - and post a link to his book.
Barto - I think you would enjoy - as would Ten, Tex and anyone else trying to get off benzos - esp xanax.
I think you might even be able to "talk" to Jack by email.

[woops]

OK guys
You can buy Jack's book for $$ on Amazon or Barnes & Noble - or he allows you to download it for free from here:
http://www.thebenzobook.com/benzo/pd...nzo-book10.pdf
He believes that people with a benzo problem should not be prevented from reading his book due to lack of money. He is a genuine good guy. You will be impressed by the honesty of this man and how he relates a long arduous fight to recover from benzo dependency. Great read.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by woops

... 1 mg xanax is actually equivalent to 20 mg valium - as per Ashton (page 6 of her Manual) ...

I have read that 1mg of Xanax equals 10 mg. Valium, and I think I read this on a benzo.org.uk linked to page (of which there are several).

These other forums concur because they base everything on Ashton. I am just not sure this is correct, and I can’t afford an inadvertent increase in dosage right now, or at least I don’t want to go there. We’ll see though. The idea of only having to take at bedtime is appealing.

Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out.

[TexasDumb]

Barto,

I am in total agreement with WOOPIES.

I am in my third week of switching from XANAX to my Valium taper, all is working fine, it's easy, and I also discovered, just like WOOPS, that I did not need as much Valium as I was allowed.

Now that may just be OUR own personal systems, but it was that way for me.

And my doctor did not give me any more XANAX to wean to the Valium like Ashton says do.
I only had enough XANAX to wean for about 7 days to Valium before running out. It was a little shaky for only a couple of days, then normal.

When I make a Valium cut every 10 days, I do not even feel it.
Where it gets me is the psychological act of reaching for the pill bottle....I miss that, but I can't discern any internal changes to speak of.....

And although according to the way XANAX affects me, I think you will be LUCKY and BLESSED if you can taper straight off XANAX.

But, that being said, for some folks and their personal systems, it can be done.

My older sister took XANAX for years, and then one day decided she did not want to anymore, so she stopped. Period.

She swears she went through NO anything......Lucky woman with a lucky system.

[Barto]

The valium taper looks good on paper, and I haven’t heard of anyone that regretted doing it yet. However, if the dose of Valium you went to is actually higher than the dose of Xanax you went off of, you may not have actually started to taper yet. I’ll be watching with interest. I wish you nothing less than complete success, you know that, but I am going to wait before switching over, if I do so at all. As I stated, I am doing well so far.

BTW, refresh my memory if you would. How much Xanax were you taking, and how much Valium are you taking now? Thanks.

[TexasDumb]

Barto,

I was taking 1 mg XANAX per day, 3x a day, for a total of 3 mgs. per day...for 5 months only.

I went to Valium at: 8 mgs in the morning and 10 mgs. in the evening for the first 10 days.

Second 10 days: 8 and 8.

Third 10 days, which is where I am now: 6 mgs. and 8 mgs.

Fourth: 5 and 8.

Fifth: 4 and 8.

Sixth: 3 and 8.

Seventh: 2 and 8.

Eighth: 1 and 8.

Ninth: 0 and 8

Tenth: 0 and 7, but for only 7 days.

Eleventh: 0 and 6 - 7 days.

Twelfth: 0 and 5 - 7 days.

Thirteenth: 0 and 4 - 7 days.

Fourteenth: 0 and 3 - 7 days

Hope this helps,



Fifteenth: 0 and 2 - 7 days.

DONE! YAHOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Barto]

Where are you in this schedule now? Didn't you just start?

[TexasDumb]

BARTO,

I am in my third 10 days...

Which is 6 mgs. morning, and 8 mgs. evenings.

It, so far, is going remarkedly easy with the symptoms...I think I miss the grabbing for the bottle and knowing/thinking some CHANGE is coming in 25 minutes more than the extra BENZOS, if you can believe that!

I am not out of the woods by NO means. I may never be, even after I am done???

It may be like an alcoholic, that I can never take these things again.

But, that's okay, because I do not WANT to ever take them again, no matter what stresses slap me in the face.
Just give me a bullet to bite on!

To be truthful, I did not REALLY need anti-anxiety pills in the first place.

As I have told you, I am and had been going through a DIVORCE and finally had hit bottom...and I knew I needed SOME kind of help.

So, when I went to my doctor I asked for anti-anxiety medicine, because that's what I thought I needed. She said okay, "Which do you want, XANAX or VALIUM?"
Like I wrote before, I had no idea, I had taken both before, but mostly for fun, oops! And I knew the XANAX had a stronger effect on me, so I said, "XANAX, I guess."
That was my second mistake!

My first mistake was that I was not having more anxiety than I could HAVE dealt with on my own.

What I really needed was anti-depressants.

By the time I figured this out, I had already been on the XANAX for about 3 months. She then also prescribed me Citalopram (which I can't even feel, but people tell me they can notice....some of my friends and relatives call them my "HAPPY PILLS."
As in, "Have you taken your happy pill this morning?"

Pretty soon, I wanted off the XANAX, so my doctor obliged me.....C/T!

During those next 14 days and mostly nights of sheer-ass agony, thinking/hoping that the next day would be better and sleep would come and trying to "tough" it out on my own, is when I found this site and you guys.

That's when I realized I had a problem that NO amount of toughing it out might help/fix it.

So, after two visits/tries, I talked my Doctor into letting me do the Ashton taper schedule.

I am a little sneaky and can usually get my way with folks through my charms...
The second time I went to my doctor for my appointment to once again try to plead for the Ashton taper, I started to get ready and take a shower, shave, put on some nice clothes, etcetera...

Then I thought, "Hell No!" I am not going to try to look presentable to plead that "I am a WRECK, please help me."
I am going to go in there just like I am. Dirty, tired, wore down, freaked out, in misery, and looking like a WRECK!

It worked..she took one look at me, and I KNEW I had won, ha. I saw it in her eyes.

And now here I am, getting better and better each day.
Heck, I am working out again, working my job like a well-oiled machine, nicer, more optimistic to everybody, fixing/repairing everything in sight, and most importantly ....... once again looking forward to the next day instead of dreading it.

I hope it is not a mirage and that it continues,

[Barto]

Of course, I remember about your divorce. And I see now where you stated “which is where I am now.” I missed that the first time. The dose you crossed over to is far below what Ashton recommends, actually even lower than half of what she recommends, which is what I heard was more the actual equivalent. You are giving me something to think about. Maybe I’ll try switching over to 10mg Valium (all at bedtime) and see what happens. Maybe. Keep us posted. Thanks again.

[TexasDumb]

BARTO,

When I went in to my doctor's, I carried some printed copies of Ashton's taper schedule and her equivalent cross-over dosages.

My doctor looked at them,agreed, took them out of our room, made copies for herself, then came back in with my schedule printed out in an easier format to follow.

We discussed that I thought/recognized that she was tapering with less Valium equivalent than what Ashton's chart suggested.

She said, something to the effect, that I am not quite in agreement that you need THAT much, so let's start here and see what happens...."

So, I said okay.

Turns out, my doctor was right, at least for me. For others who may have been on them for years, it might take the complete amount that Ashton suggests, but mine was fine.

[Barto]

I am considering the switch over.

[TexasDumb]

Barto,

You are getting GOOD with the smilies and appropriate ones also!

Sink or swim, but take the plunge!

[kj0975]

I am jumping in on this one WAY late as usual. TD I believe their is an actual phobia of Dr's I have had it referred to as White Coat Syndrome. Havent done much research on it though. I agree with the fact that some Dr's are arrogant and just too rushed. I work with alot of Drs and sometimes they are so condesending (sp) like they say Neurology you know "brain" pisses me off. Oh well I digrese. I have also been RX'd xanax for panic disorder thank goodness to these boards I rarely take them. I get 90 and they last me about6mos I never want to take them daily even if for sleep. Although sometimes my mind is my worse enemy if anyone else can understand that. Well your all doing a great job and thanks for all the info on this thread its great info.

[TexasDumb]

kj0975,,

Good job on the XANAX... that's the way they were DESIGNED to be used!

My sister-in-law has had a script for about 15 years, or as long as they have been on the market, and she only takes one about every 2-3 weeks, and only in stressful situations - like driving with my brother and their grandkids in DALLAS!

No problems there.
It's that everyday for months, years thing that jumps on you like an 800-pound gorilla!

Glad you are back!

Working a lot, eh? Sister, can I borrow a dime? Ha.

[RUNVS]

I have very limited time as I post this, but I will come back to catch up on the thread.

1mg of xanax = 20mg of Valium according to Ashton manual. Alot of Doctors especially in the United States go by Clinical Handbook of Psychotropic Drugs thats states 1mg = 10mg of Valium. There are no clearly definitive equivalencies for various benzodiazepines. I have personally seen at least a 5 different benzodiazepine equivalency charts. The reason Ashton is preferred because it reflects the clinical experience of Professor Ashton in having helped over 300 people to withdraw from benzodiazepines by use of a Valium substitution method.

But if you feel the valium is to much or to little it can be adjusted for your own personal taper plan.


REASONS FOR A DIAZEPAM (VALIUM) TAPER

1. Diazepam [Valium] is one of the most slowly eliminated benzodiazepines. It has a half-life of up to 200 hours, which means that the blood level for each dose falls by only one half in about 8.3 days. The only other benzodiazepines with similar half lives are chlordiazepoxide [Librium], flunitrazepam [Rohypnol] and flurazepam [Dalmane] all of which are converted to a diazepam metabolite in the body. The slow elimination of diazepam allows a smooth, gradual fall in blood level, allowing your body to adjust slowly to a decreasing concentration of the benzodiazepine. With more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepine e.g. lorazepam, (Ativan) (which has a half-life of 10-20 hours) the blood concentration drops rapidly and withdrawal symptoms can occur between doses, because your body has little time to adjust to low concentrations.

2. Diazepam comes in the smallest dosage levels of all benzodiazepines – 2mg tablets which can be halved to give 1mg doses. This means you can reduce in stages of 1mg every 1-4 weeks or more. It is difficult to obtain such low doses of other benzodiazepines. For example the lowest dose of lorazepam in the UK is 1mg, equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. (In the US 0.5mg lorazepam are available, but these are equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

3. Many other benzodiazepines are more potent than diazepam. For example lorazepam (Ativan) is 10 times stronger and it is difficult to reduce from this gradually. Temazepam [Restoril], though less potent than diazepam, has a shorter half-life and the smallest tablet is 10 mg (equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

4. Because of the slow elimination and small available dosage strengths of diazepam, it is often advisable to switch to diazepam when withdrawing from other stronger or more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines. This switch allows you to tail off your benzodiazepine dosage smoothly and gradually and minimises withdrawal symptoms.

5. When making the switch it is important to do it gradually, replacing one dose at a time and at approximately weekly intervals and making allowance for the difference in potency. For example, if you are taking lorazepam 1mg three times daily, first change the night dose to 10mg diazepam. (This can be done in two stages if necessary e.g. lorazepam 0.5mg (half a 1mg tablet) plus diazepam 5mg; then drop the lorazepam and go on to diazepam 10mg). A week or two later change one of the day-time doses, and two weeks later change the other day-time dose.


ALL BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NON-SELECTIVE
Professor C Heather Ashton, DM, FRCP
April 2001

As for my small site Users must register in order to participate. When Registered you will be able to view the full forum.

[windysan]

When I tried to taper(miserable attempt) I brought Asthon's equivalency charts to my doctor. The valium doses would have been toxic. Doc gave me some valium and told me to try and switch over. HA !! I just took the xanax AND the valium by the handfuls. Don't remember much from that period in my life.