XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[windysan]

Originally Posted by TexasDumb

WINDYSAN,

I grew up in the 70s...the Vietnam War was raging. Body counts on the 6 o'clock news everynight - I actually thought that soon enough we'd kill them all and they would have no more fight in them.

But, at the time, Vietnam had the 5th largest ARMY in the world...

My father was prescribed Valium for the last 20 years of his life.
I would always "sneak" some for me and my friends....
I guess I never took them on a regular basis as to get hooked...

As far as your mention of growing up in the DRUG CULTURE, we here sure did.

I mean, our teachers in High School, told us we ought to act right and look forward to our futures.....My only future I saw was getting drafted and DIEING in a rice paddy for a 'no good war."

So, we lived hard as if it was our last few years on this planet!

Of course, the war ended when I was a senior in High School and I missed the DRAFT by only about 6 months!!!

When I graduated from High School, we were high-altitude bombing Vietnam as a good-bye present, ha.

Oh well, live and learn.

Glad you didn't have to go. My uncle went then afterward stayed high and drunk for 20 years. He cleaned up and got sober but that war sure had him messed up.

[TexasDumb]

KAHLIA and GEOFITE,

THEN JUST DON'T READ IT!!!!!

GEESH.

Windy is a good guy, who are you?

[TexasDumb]

BY THE WAY, KAHLIA AND GEOFITE,

My IQ is 141, on a bad day...
What's yours???

It means nothing, that's why I call myself TEXASDUMB. It makes no difference unless one makes the RIGHT decisions!!!

You took some pretty hard shots at WindySan, I do not like that.....

This board is NOT for taking shots...it is for helping each other...

GET IT?

[Barto]

Is Geofite after Windy again? I thought that was long over with.

[Ten Chips Down]

Who in hell is Geofite.



Nah, nevermind. lol

[TexasDumb]

BARTO,

It was a thread a long time ago (one year), way before I joined.

It just PO me enough to "BOW UP," just in case....sorry, my bad.

But don't dis my WINDYSAN!!! or YOU EITHER, BARTO, I'll go to bat for you guys in a heartbeat!!!

I guess I am a little behind, having just joined and all......I got your back!

Even if I am fighting a one-year-old battle. The nerve of those people.....

TexasTough, and you know we can get fighting mad, quick, if need be, ha.

REMEMBER THE ALAMO, ha.

[TexasDumb]

TEN,
I forgot to include you in my list of 'GOOD" guys, whose wisdom helps me a lot.

You are in there too, thanks!

[Barto]

when I joined the forum looking for help with my Klonopin nightmare. I didn't know which end was up then. I had just quickly tapered down to .75mg, then promptly went off all together. It was good and bad at first, but you know the rest of this story.

Ditto TD. Those guys are on my good-guy list, too.

In looking back, Geofite was a bit over zealous. There are several on the uk board that are, shall I say, passionate. But then again, there are many in AA that are this way, too.

[windysan]

I totally missed it, what happened? Some of the nutjob Islanders get wacky again? They love me.

[EricPaul]

Originally Posted by windysan

I totally missed it, what happened? Some of the nutjob Islanders get wacky again? They love me.

The nutjobs are banned from the island and continue to be wacky "elsewhere". lmao.

[windysan]

Oh well, best get back to the cult then. Careful if you get offered any Kool-Aid. Where did their posts go? They on the personal attack bandwagon again? Childish benzophobes afraid of water.

Banned for what? An opinion, that's what. Gimme a break.

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

Benzodiazepine Recovery Tips

1. Recovery from being an accidental addict to benzodiazpines is serious
business. It takes time for the central nervous system to heal and for neurotransmitters to stop being sensitive. None of us had the faintest idea that this kind of situation lay in front of us. So we are dealing with shock at what has happened as well as the real physical and
mental/emotional symptoms of withdrawal.


2. Recovery is not linear, as it is with other illnesses or injuries. If we cut
our hands, we can actually see the cut heal and the pain diminish over time. In benzo withdrawal we can be well one day and very sick the next. This is normal and we have to look at our healing differently.


3. Recovery is an individual thing, and it is difficult to predict how quickly
symptoms will stop for good. People expect to be completely better after a certain period of time, and often get discouraged and depressed when they feel this time has passed and they are not completely better. Most patient support programs tell clients to anticipate 6 months to a year for recovery after a taper has ended. But some people feel better a few months after they stop taking benzos; for others it takes more than a year to feel completely better. Try not to be obsessed with how long it will take, because every day you stay off benzos, your body is healing at its own rate. If you do not follow this particular schedule, it does not mean there is something wrong or you are not healing. Even if you are feeling ill in some respects, other symptoms may disappear. Even people in difficult tapers see
improvements in symptoms very early on. So don't let these time-frames scare you. The way you feel at one month will not be how you will be feeling at three months or at six months.



4. It is very typical to have setbacks at different points of time (these times
can vary). These setbacks can be so intense that people feel their healing hasn't happened at all; they feel they have been taken right back to beginning. Setbacks, if they occur, are a normal part of recovery.



5. When people are in recovery, they have a lot of fears. One is that they will
never get better. Another is that their symptoms are really what they are like - perhaps what they have always been like. Both of these fears are stimulated by benzo withdrawal. In other words they are the thought components of benzo withdrawal, just as insomnia is a physical component.



6. There is no way around benzo withdrawal and recovery - you have to go through it. People try all sorts of measures to try to make the pain stop, but nothing can shortcut the process. Our body and brain have their own agenda for healing, and it will take place if you simply accept it.


7. When you are having a bad spell, healing is still going on. People typically
find that after a bad spell, symptoms improve and often go away forever. Try to remember this when times are hard.



8. There is no magic cure to recovery, but you can help yourself by comforting and reassuring yourself as much as possible. Read reassuring information, stay away from stress, ask your partner, family and others for reassurance, and go back to the things you did at the beginning if you are experiencing really tough symptoms.



9. When we start to feel better, it is very typical to try to do too much. We
are grateful to be alive and we have energy for the first time in weeks or months. But this can be a dangerous time. When we do to much and take on too much too early, it re-sensitizes the nervous system. It doesn't prevent healing in the long term, but it can make us feel discouraged. So try to pace yourself, even if you are feeling good.



10. You do need to respect your body during recovery, although you don't need to make drastic changes to your lifestyle. Exercise, in any form is critical - even if you can only walk around the house or to the end of the block. Eating well and avoiding all stimulants is crucial. Regular high-protein snacks can help with the shakes and the feelings of weakness we have during withdrawal and recovery.



11. Recovery is all about acceptance, but this does not mean passive acceptance. Set small goals for yourself that are achievable. Try to keep exercise happening. Work at your recovery even if that means accepting you are sick - for now. You wouldn't be hard on yourself if you were in a traffic accident and had injuries; you would work at rehab. --Try to take the same attitude and approach to benzodiazepine withdrawal.

Source
psychmedaware.org

At 18 months off benzos I personally starting to feel a tad better. It really does amaze me how slow this recovery can be for some people. But these recovery tips helped me.

[EricPaul]

Originally Posted by windysan

Oh well, best get back to the cult then. Careful if you get offered any Kool-Aid. Where did their posts go? They on the personal attack bandwagon again? Childish benzophobes afraid of water.

Banned for what? An opinion, that's what. Gimme a break.

I was one of the people who could not tolerate water on my skin for a year when withdrawing from benzodiazepines. It was not because I was afraid of it, it was because it felt like sharp pellets hitting my skin when trying to shower, and the sensation of water on the skin was overstimulating and felt dreadful.

You keep on insulting people such as myself who really had a horrible withdrawal and think that your opinion such as calling me a "childish benzophobe" is acceptable and is not that of (your words here not mine) "nutjob"? And what about your comment about the "kool-aid"? Is that one of your "opinions" too? Not very helpful or informative about getting off benzodiazepines, is it?

You are the one on the "personal bandwagon" of attacks again against people such as myself and runvs who are members of the forum you keep on harping about and who have had and are still having hard withdrawals, which obviously, you have no understanding of.

If you want a break then best to give one.

[woops]

Aw - c'mon guys.
Benzo withdrawal is rotten. Bloomin awful.
This is a great forum - allows for all views - unlike many other forums - can't we keep it that way?
I havent been here in a while and this was the 1st thread I read...................................
Live and let live....................

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by EricPaul

I was one of the people who could not tolerate water on my skin for a year when withdrawing from benzodiazepines. It was not because I was afraid of it, it was because it felt like sharp pellets hitting my skin when trying to shower, and the sensation of water on the skin was overstimulating and felt dreadful.

You keep on insulting people such as myself who really had a horrible withdrawal and think that your opinion such as calling me a "childish benzophobe" is acceptable and is not that of (your words here not mine) "nutjob"? And what about your comment about the "kool-aid"? Is that one of your "opinions" too? Not very helpful or informative about getting off benzodiazepines, is it?

You are the one on the "personal bandwagon" of attacks again against people such as myself and runvs who are members of the forum you keep on harping about and who have had and are still having hard withdrawals, which obviously, you have no understanding of.

If you want a break then best to give one.

I never saw the posts about me and I never called you a nutjob. There were some cool people on the Cult of Ray Forum but there were also some really wacky people. If you had water problems then, hey, sorry you had those problems. I could care less about a pizzing contest with you or any benzo island proponent. I come back to this thread here and read how this geofite person and some other people went on the attack. I never got to see these posts so I simply asked if any of the nutjobs over there came here to attack me again. It happens every now and again and usually these personal attack posts get deleted by whomever is in charge. I've always encouraged those who could handle tapering to do so. Personally I think the Cult of Ray forum is very dangerous and there are people who went there and were damaged psychologically. Nothing funny about that at all. I feel sorry for those people. I have nothing against you and I wish you well in your recovery.

[Codieneaddict]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

Hello everyone I want the truth to be know what this medication can do to people. Below is a link (video) of a man that cold turkeyed benzos after 29 years of use. The video is taken of him at 4 months free of benzos. The images might be disturbing for some to view. Remember this is an extreme case and the vast majority of people will never experience this man's discomfort especially if they slowly taper off benzos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDbPnAQ-c1o

I think its important to read this whole thread for info about benzos. Its far from complete thread but there is a lot of information and people do share their opinions on the matter. A lot of Doctors do not recognize Benzo withdrawal issues after being off benzos for 90 days or more.

* The video might be disturbing to watch * But its a true glimpse of a man c/t symptoms at 4 months off.

That video is so sad. That is a LONG time to be on a med then abruptly stop. Not to mention very dangerous. There are 2 more videos on that site from a different guy. Type in "Benzodiazapine withdrawal" and you'll find it.

I have a family member that is on 1mg of Xanax 4 times a day (Major anxiety, BPD, & PTSD). They've been on 1 mg for at least 12 years. It's going to be hard when they come off of it. I see what this person goes through when they run out. I'm not a big Benzo fan. It seems like a horrible drug to withdraw from. My prayers go out to all of you who are or are going to.

God Bless,
~C

[Barto]

I’ll check it out.

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

Valium (Diazepam) vs. Klonopin (Clonazepam) in Benzodiazepine Withdrawal
by Dr. Reg Peart Victims of Tranquilizers

About 20 different drugs, including diazepam, clonazepam,
barbiturates and other non-benzodiazepine drugs have been used for treating
benzodiazepine withdrawals with varying degrees of success or failure.
Diazepam is the most commonly used drug and has the highest success rate
for the reasons given below, but because of the large inter-individual
variability of response to benzodiazepines, there is no “one size fits all”
solution to the withdrawal problem.

Diazepam and clonazepam, like all benzodiazepine drugs, were found to
have five therapeutic actions, i.e. anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, anticonvulsant,
amnesic and hypnotic. Diazepam was marketed in the mid 1960’s for all five
therapeutic actions; while clonazepam was developed and researched in the
late 1960’s and early 1970’s and marketed in the mid 1970’s primarily as an
anxiolytic and anticonvulsant.

Any drug with similar therapeutic spectrum to the above will be both cross
tolerate and cross dependent with the benzodiazepines and in principle will be
of some help in benzodiazepine withdrawal. As well as the therapeutic
actions, drugs with long half-lives are essential to prevent interdose
withdrawals and to produce a helpful accumulation of the parent drug.

In a few benzodiazepines the metabolites of the parent drug are also
therapeutically active with the same five therapeutic actions. Of these only
diazepam and chlordiazepoxide (Librium) have long half-lives for the parent
drug and for the active metabolites. Librium is most commonly used for
alcohol withdrawal and diazepam for a range of drug withdrawal problems.

The active metabolites of diazepam are:

1) Desmethyldiazepam – marketed as clorazepate (Tranxene) and
prazepam (Centrax).
2) Oxazepam – marketed as Serenid
3) Temazepam – marketed as Normison/Euhypnos

The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200
hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action
of diazepam. It takes up to eight weeks for most of the accumulated drugs to
be eliminated from the body. This "umbrella" of the benzodiazepinesa is the main
reason for the success of diazepam tapering. The high accumulation levels
produced by the diazepam active metabolites also reduces the probability of
tolerance problems during tapering.

There is no obvious reason why about 10% of the people have problems with
diazepam tapering, but it is sometimes due to one or more of the following:

1) Incorrect equivalent dose – the values quoted by Ashton, et. al.
are those found to be effective in benzodiazepine withdrawal
and should in principle compensate for any difference in
binding of the benzodiazepines to either the same or different
benzodiazepine receptors. There values are not necessarily the
same as therapeutically effective doses, but sometimes are.

2) Poorly planned or too short a period for the exchange from
another benzodiazepine to diazepam. Mild daytime sedation at
the end of a 2-3 weeks exchange suggests the equivalent dose is
correct.

3) Failure to maximize accumulation of diazepam used and its
metabolites – it takes about four weeks to achieve 90% accumulation,
i.e. four weeks after exchange.

4) Tapering too fast. Each person should find the rate suitable to
themselves. A good starting guide is 2 ½ % of the initial dose/week.
The rate for the last 1/3 of the taper should be reduced to ½ of that for
the first 2/3.

Clonazepam is one of the nitro-benzodiazepines series, i.e. nitrazepam,
flunitrazepam, clonazepam, and nimetazepam. It has a half-life of 20-50
hours and accumulates from 1.5 to 3 times the daily dose level. Most of it is
eliminated from the body in 5–10 days. Along with triazolam, clonazepam
has the highest incidence of side effects/adverse reactions of the
benzodiazepines.

An important difference between diazepam and clonazepam is that
clonazepam does not produce active metabolites. Withdrawal symptoms
increase markedly with accumulation of clonzepam, much of which is due to
action of the inactive metabolites as well as the parent drug. This withdrawal
symptom problem can be minimized at dose levels below 3 mg/day.

In most countries, diazepam is marketed in 2 mg, 5 mg, and 10mg tablets and
solution yielding 0.1 mgs or less. Clonazepam is marketed only as 0.5 mg.
and 2 mg. (in the US it is produced as 0.125 mg, 0.25 mg, 0.50 mg, 1.0 mg,
and 2.0 mg tablets). Hence for many, the option of using clonazepam will not
be available for practical reasons.

Very few papers have been published on the use of clonazepam in
benzodiazepine withdrawals compared with many on the use of diazepam;
hence it is not possible to make an assessment of their relative merits.
Clonazepam meets three out of four of the criteria (1. The five therapeutic
actions, 2. A long half-life, and 3. Accumulation) and it may well be suitable
for a minority – it’s a “black art” not a science.

N.B. It has been reported that diazepam produced by generic suppliers can
vary by as much as 20% of the stated dose from batch to batch. If so, in order
to avoid possible dose variations, Valium as produced by Roche should be used in diazepam tapering – it is more expensive.

-

[windysan]

I look at the very slow tapering schedules and I'm amazed that people can actually do it. I would just swallow the whole bottle....plastic and all.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

... there is no “one size fits all” solution to the withdrawal problem. ...

I like this part, maybe because I am tapering straight off Xanax. I'll let Ten figure out the rest of it. Whew. Don't take this the wrong way RUN. I appreciate your posts, always have. Thanks.




BTW, your website is locked down. Is it private?

[woops]

Originally Posted by windysan

I look at the very slow tapering schedules and I'm amazed that people can actually do it. I would just swallow the whole bottle....plastic and all.

Yep Windy - I take your point - but slow taper worked just right for me - and I cant really say why. I guess there is no immediate "reward" from taking benzos as opposed to the instant rush of opiates or booze?
I tapered pretty smoothly from 3 mg ativan ............... swapped to 30 mg valium and came down in 10% increments every 10 days or so - right to the end - with very little difficulty. Was I luck - or typical? Took almost 6 months.

[TexasDumb]

WOOPS,

Your taper schedule is EXACTLY what I convinced my doctor to taper me.

It took a while to convince her, but I finally succeeded..

I am glad it worked for you. That gives me more confidence that it will hopefully WORK easily for me, too.

I have posted these same photos on other threads, but I wanted to make sure YOU saw them.

Keep on Truckin'

[TexasDumb]

WindySan,

You, too, are a NUT!
Bottle, plastic and all, I 'bout fell out!

I have been wondering where RUNVS was. He was one of the first posts I ever read when I found this site and what he wrote hit me "right between the eyes!"
And this whole time I thought he was "living in his van down by the RIVER!"

But noooooooooo, he's over here on this thread.

I gotta' get out more!!!

[Ten Chips Down]

Geez, you just HAD to invoke me, eh? Well ok:

2) Oxazepam – marketed as Serenid

Marketed as Serax in the states.

3) Temazepam – marketed as Normison/Euhypnos

That's my Restoril in the states.

Peart has a good handle on the wisdom of using diazepam to taper, and indeed it is the optimal drug to use in titration from most benzos. Yet he misses an important characteristic to weigh and that is relative potency. I don't care how you mince it, diazepam is a less-than-ideal agent to use in tapering off the most potent bzds on the market, namely clonazepam--and your pet drug, Barto, alprazolam.

The fact remains that clonazepam is available in micro doses in the states (down to .125 mg tablet, which can be split to .0625 mg! ), making it more far more suited to tritration from either itself (Klonopin) or Xanax.

It's a fairly authoritative piece, but incomplete for the omission of the criteria of relative potency--that is very important.

Ten