XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[TexasDumb]

RUNVS.

I guess it is better than liiving in "your van down by the river....."


But, Good LORD ALMIGHTY, you have been through it.......

I wish you luck...

And I have said before on this site, I will say it again< "If you wake up tomorow, God ain't through with you yet, HOW can you be through with YOURSELF!

My 2. cennts worth......

Love you man, hang in there......

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by TexasDumb

I bowed up at her a little when they told me that today....heck, lady, what do you think I am in here today trying to do?????? Get my car fixed????

LOL! You tell it, Tex, that was very funny!

"Why are we scared of Doctors anyway, like they are some kind of authority...."

I'm not.

DON'T be scared. No, no.

Insist on being treated and listened to with respect. If they don't or can't? Fire 'em. I have. Life is too short to waste on holders of full doctorate-degrees in medicine who are more ignorant on the drugs they may prescribe than am I. I got no more patience and I sure ain't got the time.

Life is short.

Ten

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by Barto

[. . . .] Wow, I really hesitate to hit the submit button on this one, but what the heck. If this post is really that hokey, it will prove my earlier point: that I really am a nut!

I am so glad you did hit Submit Reply. Very impressive. Well-structured, thought-out, and a fine piece of incisive, insightful writing. Well-paced prose that is fun to read. Entertaining and full of wisdom - I had no idea you had all that in ya!

But what are these "quotes" you're discussing?

Ten

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by windysan

Maybe I used the wrong word, high. Back in junior high and high school we'd drink a six pack and eat some valium and get buzzed. I always got a "sense of well being" when I ate a handful of benzos. Of course I'd mix them up with the soma, the oxy, the vic too for the full enchilada.

Now nothing beat the warm and crusty tar or the oxy....that is getting high.

I just knew early on in my career that the benzos were part of the inventory for getting wasted.

No doubt that BZDs are synergistic with EtOH and my other CNS depressants. Absolutely true, and sure, I speak from experience both lived and book-learned.

BZDs can 1) heighten the effects of EtOH; 2) prolong that period in which you feel really good from EtOH. By themselves, they're a rather p`iss poor recreational drug, yet when combined with many other rec. drugs, they are very, very 'useful' indeed.

Ten

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

***********Here is more info about the guy in the video.************



Hello everyone I want the truth to be know what this medication can do to people. Below is a link (video) of a man that cold turkeyed benzos after 29 years of use. The video is taken of him at 4 months free of benzos. The images might be disturbing for some to view. Remember this is an extreme case and the vast majority of people will never experience this man's discomfort especially if they slowly taper off benzos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDbPnAQ-c1o

I think its important to read this whole thread for info about benzos. Its far from complete thread but there is a lot of information and people do share their opinions on the matter. A lot of Doctors do not recognize Benzo withdrawal issues after being off benzos for 90 days or more.

* The video might be disturbing to watch * But its a true glimpse of a man c/t symptoms at 4 months off.

My name is M@@@ S@@@@,(M@@@)I'm in the video. I was prescribed Klonopin and ssri's for twenty-nine years, abruptly discontinuing them September 23, 2006. I made the video to validate and hopefully promote awareness of "benzo" illness. I'm including two short "pieces" that I have been sending to gain media exposure for
us all. My email is XXXXX

My story is about the dangers of benzodiazepine's and the effects it had on my family. I had panic/anxiety attacks at an early age repeatedly being driven to the ER for treatment of the heart attack like symptoms. Eventually, I was prescribed benzo's. They are a class of drugs known as minor tranquilizers-Valium, Xanex, Ativan,
Klonopin. I was told to take them daily, similar to a diabetic who needs daily insulin for maintaining blood sugar. I did as directed, the med's eliminating symptoms. I never paid attention beyond it, going on with my life-school, marriage, children and business. My family grew, we moved from a starter home to a beautiful home complete with a pool and a large lot. Business prospered and we accrued the obligatory toys. Life was good, we entertained, took
vacations, and enjoyed time at the lake. Around the nine eleven tragedy, business was beginning to dwindle. I cited stress, economy, anything but the real reason. We lost the office property, our home, almost all personal possessions and filed for bankruptcy. During this time I withdrew from my wife, worked inefficiently, lost interest in
things that I had enjoyed, and became difficult. I had been taking benzo's for several years, and experienced many health nuisances such as cardiac arrhythmia, shortness of breath, loss of memory and balance, cognitive impairment, lethargy, high blood pressure, urinary dysfunction and depression. I went to many physicians, endured diagnostic tests and swallowed more pills. I tolerated a cocktail of blood pressure, antibiotic, urinary, anti- depression, and sinus medications. I know now that I experienced inter-dosage withdrawal while taking benzo's.
I finally realized my addiction and on September 23, 2006, my fathers eighty-second birthday, I abruptly stopped the benzo's. After a few days, I went into a state of withdrawal, sleepless for 14 days. I was in an acute position of anxiety, counting minutes, sometimes seconds from my watch. Fireworks, complete with whistles, shrills, and exploding rockets riveted through my brain for weeks. I lost twenty-five pounds in half as many days. We lost our rented home, and the secret came out. I had lied about out finances owing family and friends. I was truly controlled by benzo's. My wife having lived through five years of ruin, had enough. She and my children moved in with her parents, me with mine. I'm now living in a state of protracted withdrawal with hallucinations, foot paralysis
electrical and vibratory sensations, perpetual fear, sobbing, and of course anxiety. Many long-term benzo patients suffer paradoxical side effects. I stumbled across informational websites and support groups located in the UK. Many people are experiencing similar horror's, although some medical experts deny that benzo's are to blame. Some
symptoms seem dreamlike, resembling a "twilight zone" episode, but couldn't be more real. Theses meds can ruin one's health, alter behavior and personality. It is not only my goal, but my duty to educate the public, restore my dignity and possibly reclaim my family. There are eighty million benzo prescriptions written annually. If only .5 percent become dependent on benzo's, then four hundred thousand people will suffer. Are they worth it? You
decide.

Although we've never met, my good friend Pam, someone whom I share my closest, and most personal words with called today, telling me about a recent airing of your show. Antidepressants were discussed, and although I missed the broadcast, I believe Ativan may have been mentioned too. Pam, her friend Peggy, and myself share a common thread, belonging to a global internet community, supporting one another during crisis. The meds are a class of drugs called benzodiazepines-Valium, Ativan, Xanex, and Klonpin. Each of us abruptly stopped the chemical, lending alliance to one another while we fight to survive during a state of acute withdrawal. Like most
benzo victims, we became addicted not through back alley's or closed doors, but by prescriptions written by physicians eager to cure our ills. More women are prescribed than men, but the ailing seek help for anxiety, panic, insomnia, and seizure. Although benzos are suitable only for short-term usage, many including myself were prescribed for years without fanfare. Benzos produce a calming, sedating and hypnotic effect when prescribed less than two to four weeks. For long term users the result is radically different with a paradoxical effect resulting in anxiety, insomnia, lethargy, and depression. Physicians diagnose oddities common to our cause such as mitral valve
prolapse, cardiac arrhythmia, urinary dysfunction, and bowel disorders, as we desperately seek answers to our health concerns. Some of us have lost lucrative careers, homes, and more importantly our families. The most unfortunate have been forced into psychiatric clinics, prescribed anti psychotics, electrical shock, and a few lost
their lives. Pam, Peggy and I discovered the truth on our own, that benzo's took control rendering us helpless until we finally rid ourselves of addiction through a "no matter what" determination. We have endured sleeplessness, severe weight loss, paralysis, hallucinations, extreme fear, and of course, anxiety during ghastly, if not lengthy withdrawals. Benzodiazepine addiction is arguably the most misunderstood hardship in modern medicine without a principal to champion our cause. I urge you to present our struggle, to validate and vindicate, restoring our dignity while we fight an ongoing battle named hope.

Sincerely,
M@@@@

I am really interested to see how this man is doing at 1 year and 2 years off.

I going to encourage him to make some follow up videos to show people that improvement can happen as time passes.

[windysan]

29 years as a "medication". Whoa.

[chichi]

I've been reading through this thread for the past few days and I'm amazed by all the knowledge and wisdom that's been shared here. Thanks to all. I'm fortunate that I've never been a fan of benzos, though I have been taking .25 mg of xanax every night for sleep (rx'd by a dr.) for years. Since I've read elsewhere that benzos are nasty to withdraw from, I've been careful never to go higher on that dose. This thread -- and the other benzo threads here -- have reinforced in me the need to have a healthy respect (or "disrespect" may be more accurate?) for these drugs.

I'm so sorry for the man in the video; those symptoms seem agonizing. Having read his story, I wonder why he chose to go cold turkey? I haven't read the famous Ashton Manual but surely she does not advocate that approach. Isn't she famous for her valium tapers? It would seem to me that a man who is intelligent enough, capable enough, (despite his anxiety) to have a successful life would be able to seek out professional help in managing a successful taper or even do it on his own (like others have done). I'm not one to blame the victim but I'm just wondering why one would choose this path. Are these symptoms inevitable regardless of the method one chooses to stop long term usage of benzos?

Well, just wanted to put my thoughts out there...
And to say once again how much I appreciate you all for your thoughtful insights and commentary. By the way, TD, I don't know what made you choose the "dumb" part of your username but I have to disagree with that part. You seem awfully clever and smart to me. Your story broke my heart. I hope you do everything you can to lift yourself up. You sound like a really good guy so be good to yourself, ok?

I wish you all the very best in your recovery.

Please pardon the interruption. Carry on.
chichi

[Barto]

Thank you for the compliment. Maybe it was good that I was tired when I wrote the reply otherwise I may have over thought it and screwed it up. As it is, I don’t think the reply covers the depth of these two quotes, except maybe from one practical and subjective aspect. The quotes appear on page 15 of this thread. I lifted them from the “Secular…” section. The quotes are:

"The ego is sick for the very reason that it is cut off from the whole, and has lost its connection not only with [humanity] but also with the spirit" - Carl Jung

"The problem seems to be that the ego, in singling itself out, has come to view itself as the whole. It is unaware that it is part of something much larger and much greater." -Unidentified Author

Pretty deep I think. This is why the caveats appear in my reply and why I was so hesitant to post. I guess sometimes you have to just go for it, though.

That video is pretty freaky, huh? I couldn’t watch more than a few seconds of it. How much was this guy taking? Do we know?

[Barto]

I get you. I am familiar with the “Stones” song that references “mother's little helper.” And I knew that Valium was used recreationally (when nothing better was available), but I also thought it had a legitimate medical purpose, too.

I had absolutely no idea that such horrific w/d symptoms could occur from prescribed use of these pills. And none of my three doctors told me about any of this. In fact, I don’t think they know or that they would agree.

Ten,

What do you think about the video symptoms? Is it possible? You know a lot about the science of this stuff and you have the personal experience, as well.

[Barto]

Thanks for the reply. How are your PWS symptoms going? How much and what was this guy on for 29 years?

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by Barto

Thanks for the reply. How are your PWS symptoms going? How much and what was this guy on for 29 years?

The man in the video took Klonopin, 3.3-5mg for 29 years.

Thanks for asking about my PWS.


At 18 months off benzos. I would say alot of improvements in many areas. My memory and my mind has improved by 100 fold. I am still struggling with coordination issues like I have 2 left feet. But I believe this will resolve in time. I still have issues with major fatigue but it has improved slightly. I still have good days and bad days but nothing compared to the early days.

I emailed Ashton about my coordination issues and this was her reply:

Dear RUNVS,

Thank you for your e-mail. Well done for getting off Ativan, although you don't mention the dose, duration of use, or reason for the prescription. However, the symptoms you describe are quite common and will undoubtedly improve. The fact that your mind is sharp again is a good sign. The bizarre sensation of being pushed or pulled as well as heaviness, has been mentioned by many others and can be quite persistent. Nevertheless, I am sure that it will gradually decline. You should take as much exercise as possible (without pushing yourself too much) in order to keep up your bodily strength. The symptoms might persist for several months yet but will eventually leave you, I am sure.

The cause of these strange symptoms is not clear but there are many benzodiazepine receptors in the cerrebellum which controls muscle movement, strength, balance and bodily orientation and it is likely that these are slower to recover than the receptors in the cerebral cortex which are involved in cognitive abilities.

With best wishes,

Yours sincerely,
C.H Ashton


p.s. some people private message me and many messages got deleted by acciedent, so I was unable to reply

[MKM]

Thanks for posting more info.

I read that he was also on an ssri. It is mentioned that he stopped 'them' which I read to mean both tranq. and ssri at the same time, yet he also states he stopped cold turkey the klonopin. What about any alcohol
comsumption. Since not mentioned I assume he was not even a light
drinker.

I know getting off an ssri is bad (some of these are worse than others) and he probably was double cold turkeying off of two potent drugs. As one poster stated why did he just cold turkey off these obviously by his own decision and not at a Dr.'s order and after such a long time.

It seems what with the internet and talking to his prescribing Dr. that mention would have been made about the risk of w/d seizures.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by RUNVS

The man in the video took Klonopin ...

I hate Klonopin.

Where is everybody?

Ten, what do you think of the valium taper from a scientific POV?

[Ten Chips Down]

Chichi -

GREAT to make your acquaintance. Welcome to active posting on SR.

"This thread -- and the other benzo threads here -- have reinforced in me the need to have a healthy respect (or "disrespect" may be more accurate?) for these drugs."

As respect implies humility, definitely stay with respect. lol Very smart is he or she who does as you are doing and never gets too deep in these things to begin with. Withdrawing from a serious dependence to BZDs is one experience you'll NEVER regret missing out on.

"It would seem to me that a man who is intelligent enough, capable enough, (despite his anxiety) to have a successful life would be able to seek out professional help in managing a successful taper or even do it on his own (like others have done). I'm not one to blame the victim but I'm just wondering why one would choose this path."

Aye - something is amiss. This is plain to see. LOL No dude in his right mind goes off this stuff CT. But - more on that momentarily.

"Are these symptoms inevitable regardless of the method one chooses to stop long term usage of benzos?"

No. The severity is 100% dependent upon the quality of your own taper method. "Quality" will be determined on an individual basis and comprises length of time and the agents used to slowly detox.

One might accurately suppose that experiencing the full range of symptoms after long-term use (i.e. 2 years consecutive or more) is inevitable--but key in keeping that in perspective is to realize that an intelligent taper can absolutely assuage the intensity of those symtoms. Do it long, slow, and gentle enough and you can probably get off pretty painlessly.

The rub in that? Finding an educated doc or one who will at least work with you and the Ashton model of doing things. Flexibility and openness to new ways of doing a thing is just paramount in the prescribing physician. So that may be one big challenge.

"I wish you all the very best in your recovery. Please pardon the interruption. Carry on."

Nothing to pardon! The board is the sum total of all its posts, and ppl like Chichi with a loving, caring attitude make it the loving, caring environment that it is. I am very happy that you are learning so much, but keeping posting wherever you are moved to so!

Ten

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by Barto

Ten,

What do you think about the video symptoms? Is it possible?

I can't view the video on this dial-up but I can just about imagine the spectacle he is presenting, and why it is so disturbing to people. Is he dispaying lack of balance? Does he try to drink, to eat (see below**)?

In answer to your question, no matter how bad it looks, the answer is . . .

yes. It is possible I'm afraid.

Klonopin is one of the few BZDs FDA-approved for use as an antieleptic. This is HUGELY important. This means it is potent enough to serve as prophylactic in seizure disorders or epilepsy. And it means that once you go hell-bent off it cold-turkey from a high enough dose (which is... just DUMB), you really are risking death. And it if doesn't kill you, then you are taking on the inverse of everything good that drug can do: You will experience hell on earth for a short, nasty period--vertigo, imbalance, visual and auditory hallucinations, some very freaky things.

**Intentional movement: Actions of intention are greatly hampered; any tremors--and they are likely to be large and convulsive in intensity--will only be amplified when the person attempts to control himself. Classic examples - eating. Horrible, just horrible. You cannot get the bowl or spoon up to your mouth w/out shaking worse and worse the harder you try. Drinking - well you can almost forget about that. Two hands will be required, over a SINK in the earliest goings. Especially in a public setting where there is any self-consciousness at all? Well - you won't go out in public anyway for several days.

Remember, all therapeutic benefits are turned on their head in a severe BZD withdrawal and whereas before they made you Mr. Smooth, now their absence turns you into an electric, jumpy wreck.

Originally Posted by Barto

Ten, what do you think of the valium taper from a scientific POV?

Dunno quite enough at the present to submit a good answer to that. Diazepam is highly lipophilic and is stored in the fatty tissues, I'm sure everyone knows. First-pass metabolism results in short clinical action of the parent drug, giving way to a much longer phase from the slow excretion of its active metabolites stored in the fatty tissues.

Where I fall short however, is how effective this is for more "potent" (a word here meaning quite simply, powerful and effective) BZDs. Valium is a fairly low-potency BZD. Xanax and Klonopin, however.... And even Ativan... Well see those are really almost a different animal in the benzodiazepine kingdom! LOL

EricPaul and RUNVS may have some feedback for ya - I'd have to do more reading and evaluation of the data to understand and render an informed opinion that I'm happy with.

Ten

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by MKM

I have questions about this man in the video.

Me too. He says he was "prescribed Klonopin and ssri's for twenty-nine years, abruptly discontinuing them September 23, 2006."

But SSRIs have not been around for 30 years--and Klonopin, just barely.

Prozac, the prototype SSRI and first to usher in this age for patients the world over, was only brought to market in 1987. Had it been around earlier in the UK? I don't know. And Klonopin was just getting released to market in 1975.

It's really hard to believe that what he is sharing is not
statistically very rare: It's a snapshot of one person with an agenda. Anyone with half a WIT would not CT from Klon if they knew anything.

"What is his background, how much, why he cold turkeyed
off them. Did he have anxiety/panic disorder."

All relevant questions that any discriminating mind would ask first before buying everything he says. Important to know are why he would stop it cold and does he indeed have some anxiety disorder, over-active thyroid, etc. We just don't know, do we?

Astute observations MKM raises: First, you really come right back to WHY in heaven's name would anyone stop cold, after 30 years. LOL Pleading ignorance to their addictiveness just will not fly after all this time. Everybody and her mom learned of the horror stories associated with Valium long, long ago. I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can, the smash hit written by Barbara Gordon, goes all the back to 1982 and was subsequently made into a movie. Moreover, there have been just countless television shows and news-magazine segments about it.

"And sorry but the obvious: If that is how he is without these pills, then some Dr. could give him some tranq. and he would not have these symptoms. The cure for PWS is to take the pills for these rare cases."

I am going to side with MKM on that. Not that living with the monkey is preferable in any way--UNLESS you've fed him for decades on end. When this has happened and w/d symptoms don't abate for several months, one must really question whether the 'cure' is, indeed, just staying on the substances indefinitely--or at the least, going back on them and re-commencing a much slower, more pragmatic detox.

I mean look at this scenario (if true) - 29 years straight on drugs which change you organically as the brain makes an effort to adapt and adjust to same. Well, it only stands to reason that the period of relearning everything on how to adapt and cope will take a long, long time indeed.

This may sound controversial, yet is recognized in both practice and principal with opiate/heroin addicts and methadone: The most common-sense approach to this terribly challenging problem *may* just be to remain on a maintenance dose indefinitely.

My--our--point is that the misery this gentleman is experiencing is truly optional. Some pain, sure, but misery is ALWAYS optional. I should think the smartest thing to do would be to go back on them, stay on them as long as the patient sees fit and most important of all--is comfortable with their rate of taper if any.

So... some very good points indeed by MKM.

Ten

[TexasDumb]

THANKS,

10 CHIPS!!!

I am not WIMP! But these doctors act like they are GOD! I geuss it's all the schooling they go through. Wrong!
THEY think they know better than we KNOW what we are going through!

NOT always!

I have now Ashton's manual/charts, and if she does not want to follow it, Iwill Donald Trump fire her.

I just want off these devil pills, and if she won't help me, she's done!


Thank you guys and women, YOU have been a God-send!

LOVE YOU ALL!


CHARLES

[windysan]

I totally went brain dead or just wasn't paying attention. I never remember hearing about Klonipin 30 years ago (and believe me when I say that if it offered a possiblity to get loaded I would've known about it). I never heard of SSRI's 30 years ago either.

The guy does look pretty wacked out and screwed up. Ya think it is a hoax?

[Buzz Kilowatt]

Originally Posted by windysan

The guy does look pretty wacked out and screwed up. Ya think it is a hoax?

I dunno.

There is a logical flaw, which in Latin is: post hoc ergo propter hoc. Literally translated, it is "after this, therefore because of this." In other words, if "B" happens after "A", then "A" caused "B".

It is the basis for superstitious thinking and generally poor reasoning.

Maybe the guy had some disorder before or during the time he took the meds.

On the other hand, it is certainly conceivable that the benzos rewired his nervous system and this is the result.

Scary (and sad) in any case. I wish I had more details.

Buzz

[Barto]

Originally Posted by windysan

... Ya think it is a hoax?

That was my first thought when I saw the clip, Windy. And Buzz’s Latin analogy my second.

[TexasDumb]

If I took these devil pills for 29 years, I'd make a more "scary" video than that.....ha, ha.

[TexasDumb]

CHICHI,

If you are only taking .25mg Xanax once a day, maybe your withdrawals will not be SO bad, I dunno, I skipped that day at MEDICAL SCHOOL, ha.

But as everyone on here says, a taper is the way to go, even for such a small dose.

Most of us wish we were only at that small of a dose....

Just my opinion, good luck!!!

[TexasDumb]

BARTO,

Thanks for your condolenses in my marital problem.

Today, Feb. 1, is one year from THE DAY!!!

A little BLUE, but life goes on.

Mainly, it's my two wonderful daughters that I worry about.

The soon-to-be ex can do whatever she wants.

In reality, she was a good woman, I would not have traded her for the WORLD!

But to say she has a character flaw is like saying HITLER was a bad man!!!, ha.

Anyway, life goes on and I am still CUTE! Lots of women would want me, I am just not ready yet....have to get myself straight and mentally strong first, before I can give myself to someone else.....

Thank you all for letting me vent!

[TexasDumb]

WINDYSAN,

I grew up in the 70s...the Vietnam War was raging. Body counts on the 6 o'clock news everynight - I actually thought that soon enough we'd kill them all and they would have no more fight in them.

But, at the time, Vietnam had the 5th largest ARMY in the world...

My father was prescribed Valium for the last 20 years of his life.
I would always "sneak" some for me and my friends....
I guess I never took them on a regular basis as to get hooked...

As far as your mention of growing up in the DRUG CULTURE, we here sure did.

I mean, our teachers in High School, told us we ought to act right and look forward to our futures.....My only future I saw was getting drafted and DIEING in a rice paddy for a 'no good war."

So, we lived hard as if it was our last few years on this planet!

Of course, the war ended when I was a senior in High School and I missed the DRAFT by only about 6 months!!!

When I graduated from High School, we were high-altitude bombing Vietnam as a good-bye present, ha.

Oh well, live and learn.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by TexasDumb

BARTO,

Thanks for your condolenses in my marital problem.

Today, Feb. 1, is one year from THE DAY!!!

A little BLUE, but life goes on.

Mainly, it's my two wonderful daughters that I worry about.

The soon-to-be ex can do whatever she wants.

In reality, she was a good woman, I would not have traded her for the WORLD!

But to say she has a character flaw is like saying HITLER was a bad man!!!, ha.

Anyway, life goes on and I am still CUTE! Lots of women would want me, I am just not ready yet....have to get myself straight and mentally strong first, before I can give myself to someone else.....

Thank you all for letting me vent!

This part of your plan sounds good. I hope it works out TD.