XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[TexasDumb]

Hey folks,

I am a Newbie, though I have been reading this site for months now. Mostly, the alcohol boards, because I used too much alcohol to get numb and number. Duh....

Question for y'all ---
I am going through an unwanted divorce with two young daughters involved...
About 5 months ago I thought I had had enough on my own, so I went to the doctor to get some anti-anxiety help. (if I knew then what I know now....I was doing fine and would trade back to those days, but I thought Valium or Zanax was supposed to help us...Duh, again. And I guess it is - IF - taken no longer than 4 weeks!)

To my point- My Doc prescribed me 1mg Zanax, 3 times a day.
The first three days I 'bout could not stay awake, I tried to call her I was ready at that point to stop. That should have been a clue.
Even early on, I tried to take less than 1 mg. at a time. I would try to take a .5 mg as needed and did well for awhile.
Anyway this went on for nearly 4 months before I decided I should start to wean. (Should have sooner, I know.) During this time, I stumbled across Ashton's site.
Took me two visits get my Doc to "please" switch and let me taper with Valium instead. (A funny, - I grew up in the 70s, so it's kind of hard to ask for a drug with a straight face and legitimate reasons, you know Peace and All. I figure the Cops will show up at any moment and bust down the door - 'Well, if you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in, Busted down on Bourbon Street......)
But I digress.
Here's my deal and question I need help with..
I only took these Devils all told about 4-5 months. I tapered as best I could within Doc's time limit, but I think I tapered TOO fast.

It's been about two weeks since I quit.
I thought, cool dude, I am through with those things forever even if they are FREE.
But, about 10 days ago, I started having trouble sleeping at night. I mean bad and I never had before that many nights in a row. I am talking maybe one hour of sleep a night, the rest just trying to fall back to sleep.
Earlier during all this my sho' nuff 70s brother gave me one of his Ambiens. I took a 1/3 tablet and slept like a baby.
So, I got Doc to write me a script. I went to pick it up and since there are no generics - it cost $61, instead of my usual co-pay of $5. (Good insurance, finally again.)
Anyway, I balked. But after 10 nights in a row of not enough sleep to function on, not to mention all the damn hours in the middle of the night - thank God for internet - I decided $61 U.S. was not a bad price. Hell, I'd paid you that much just to sleep 7 more hours last night!
So, yesterday I got it filled.
I was so confident last night. I took 1/2 half, 30 minutes later went to bed. Wham. Asleep. I woke up later and thought the clock said 7 a.m., and I thought great. Sleep.
But it actually said 9:30 p.m., and I had only been asleep 1.5 hours.
I got up, thinking maybe in a minute I could go back to sleep.
Decided I could not, so I took the other half tablet.
30 minutes later, asleep. Boom, up. This time 2 hours.
At 4:30 a.m. this morning I went for broke. Decided I did not HAVE to work today, sleep was more important and safer - so I took another half and tried to go to sleep.
No go. Could not even fall asleep.
So, with 1 and 1/2 ambien and I still can't fall asleep.
And while I am trying to fall asleep, my mind races around to all these scary images and I can't control it to relax. This morning, I even heard what sounded like a clock radio from the other room playing music and people talking. Freaked me out, until I decided to listen to it. It was weird but kinda of cool. Also, I had some body electric jerks, mostly in my chest area, that were timeable, until I concentrated on them and they quit. They would shake me pretty good..
My arms feel like "restless legs," they kind of feel like they want to fly up at the elbows..

My main question is: I am afraid I tapered TOO quickly and I may be one of those 6 months, 1-2 year prolong guys....and I do not want to be. I'll go luny.

It's only been about 2 weeks since I stopped about two 2.5 mgs Valiums a day...
Should I get my Doc to give me some more so I can taper longer or should I just ride this out?????????????????????And how long might that ride be, in your humble opinions?
I really have no other symptions, except I can't SLEEP!
Other than that, I will stand.
I'd rather burn down Roche's building than take some more of their devil-medicine. But, I can't go on like this with no sleep.
My brain will blow up...

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks for listening, no doctor would have that much time....especially for FREE!

[Barto]

I wish I could tell you what to do. It appears everyone is different, so I am wary of those who will tell me what to do. That said, 3mg. per day is huge starting dose, way too big in this layman’s opinion. Whether to reinstate or not, that is a tough call. I think I am glad I did, but others haven’t and are fine. Some are totally against this course. The reason I say "I think" is that I wish I had totally quit caffeine before I reinstated. I think this would have solved all my problems, but I didn’t, so I’m speculating.

I guess it can’t hurt for me to suggest that before you take anymore of these narcotics (including Ambien) try to completely cut caffeine for two weeks. If you are like me, you will not be able to stay awake in the afternoon (day 1), never mind being able to sleep at night. Of course you’ll probably go through the headaches on days one, two, or three; but if it works, it’d beat reinstating.

Here are the things that helped me the most: faith (that everything is as it should be, right here, right now, no matter how I feel or what I think), abstention from caffeine, hydration, healthy diet (no simple carbs, moderate fats), rest, and light to moderate exercise. This is what helps me, if it helps you, pass it on.

[mikiglen]

stay off!
i thought i was a weirdo...i went through the exact same thing at about 2 weeks off 2mg xanax daily....i thought, surely the wds are over and this is something else????
anyway, it passed. i was exhausted as hell for about a week, then things got back to seminormal. they still kind of screw with me...earlier this week, i couldn't sleep, now, i can't sleep enough....but it's better than being a slave to a pill, you know?
hang in there...your body WILL sleep when it's time, you won't die from tiredness, lol

[mikiglen]

i know lack of sleep is definitely not funny, but...

[leeside]

Going from Xanax to Valium is like going from the frying pan to the fire. Valium has a long history of being a sought after abused drug.

If loosing sleep is the worst of it consider yourself lucky. Try 1/2 cup warm milk (tried... but true). Good nutrition, vitamins, herbs, exercise...

[windysan]

Originally Posted by leeside

Going from Xanax to Valium is like going from the frying pan to the fire. Valium has a long history of being a sought after abused drug.

If loosing sleep is the worst of it consider yourself lucky. Try 1/2 cup warm milk (tried... but true). Good nutrition, vitamins, herbs, exercise...

Sorry dude but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Instead of spouting off AA slogans try doing a little research on these drugs.

Warm milk? What planet did you come from? The valium taper (if the person can handle a taper) is the best method for detoxing off of these drugs that can KILL a person if they stop taking them suddenly.

I don't mean to come down on you too hard but believe me when I tell you that you are completely wrong.

[TexasDumb]

Windysan,

What do you think about my case?

Should I stay off or re-taper some more?

Thanks,

[Barto]

TD,

How long were you on 2.5 mg.? Did you stabilize on that amount, or did you just get down to that amount then quit? If you have cut out ALL caffeine (iced tea, green tea, etc.), and you have tried everything else that I posted, I don’t really know what else to tell you (which has never stopped me from opening my mouth anyway, so why break that tradition here).

My opinion (versus my experience): The valium taper looks like a good idea to me. I’ve been aware of it for nearly a year. I may even cross-over to it if I get to a point that I find I can’t cut slow enough with Xanax (without horrific symptoms). But I am not there, so I don’t know. You, on the other had, were already doing it, sort of.

Also, you may try to find a good doctor that knows about benzos. I think the benzo.org.uk website has a list. Maybe there is one near you. Your symptoms do not sound abnormal to me. I had insomnia, restless leg, tinnitus, digestive disorders, muscle aches, and all kinds of other nasty symptoms when I came off these drugs cold. I am not even sure I realized how bad they were until I went back on the medication. Now my motto is SLOW. One tiny cut per every two weeks or maybe even one per month.

I think reinstating may have saved my ass. But I also suspect quitting caffeine was a major factor for me. So, since you say that you already have quit caffeine, I stand by my original statement, “everybody is different.” This is not a one size fits all deal. That said, I have not heard anybody that has gone through a slow valium taper say it was a mistake.

Hey Windy, I don’t see any AA slogans in that post. Nothing from any of the AA literature anyway. AA World Services’ position on prescription drugs is clear. Basically it is: “No AA member plays doctor. The AA member should be completely honest with himself and a doctor experienced with alcoholism, and informed that the AA member is alcoholic.” You probably already know this, but I get the feeling some others have not read the World Services approved pamphlet entitled “The AA Member- Medications and Other Drugs.” Copyright 1984.

Good to read you though. You still have that hot cup of community decaf ready for me so I can have some when I get off this stuff (if ever)?

[TexasDumb]

Barto,

Thanks for the reply.
I was only at 2.5 mg for about the last 2 weeks. Not long enough, I know, but my doctor is a little "crabby" if I ask for longer......
Basically, she had me (or agreed to allow me) to taper from 20 mg a day to 0 in just two months. Truth be told, I had already began on my own, to taper even before the two months.
I imagine it's still too fast. The % cut each week is still way over Ashton's chart.
I just wonder if my symptoms are from this taper or something else.
I will also admit about two weeks ago, I got off my wagon and drank plenty of beer for about 3 nights in a row/
I sure that didn't help, and probably figures into the equation somehow..

Thanks,

[Starbaby]

I hate that not sleeping bit. It hurts. I think melatonin helps a little. Worth a try. I'm glad you started posting here. I'm trying to taper from klonopin myself.
love ya.

[leeside]

Originally Posted by windysan

Sorry dude but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Instead of spouting off AA slogans try doing a little research on these drugs.

Warm milk? What planet did you come from? The valium taper (if the person can handle a taper) is the best method for detoxing off of these drugs that can KILL a person if they stop taking them suddenly.

I don't mean to come down on you too hard but believe me when I tell you that you are completely wrong.

I'd like to know where I used an AA slogan? But if it backs up something I said it is ok with me.

Did you know that warm milk is perhaps the best source of mellitonin and that calcium and phosphorus is mentioned in health books to help you to get to sleep? It is, perhaps, a bit trite, and you may think it has been beaten to death, but it still works best for me.

There are much less addictive drugs (I wont mention any because I don't want anyone running to the doc for some) than valium to taper with, which is an addictive drug and not Xanax. Scope the PDR on those drugs and find out. I have been prescribed both and have tried both. Have you?

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by Starbaby

I hate that not sleeping bit. It hurts. I think melatonin helps a little. Worth a try. I'm glad you started posting here. I'm trying to taper from klonopin myself.
love ya.

I'm glad, as well. Gosh, but it always helps when people do this, doesn't it though? Take some died-in-the-woolz fellow like myself. Now, he reads that, and he's just about got to share.

Heh. As you can see clearly from below! :-o

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by leeside

Going from Xanax to Valium is like going from the frying pan to the fire. Valium has a long history of being a sought after abused drug.

If loosing sleep is the worst of it consider yourself lucky. Try 1/2 cup warm milk (tried... but true). Good nutrition, vitamins, herbs, exercise...

Just my opinion here but amen!

[Ten Chips Down]

Originally Posted by mikiglen

stay off!
i thought i was a weirdo...i went through the exact same thing at about 2 weeks off 2mg xanax daily....i thought, surely the wds are over and this is something else???? anyway, it passed. i was exhausted as hell for about a week, then things got back to seminormal. they still kind of screw with me...earlier this week, i couldn't sleep, now, i can't sleep enough....but it's better than being a slave to a pill, you know?

Yes, ma'am! _i_ sure do!

East. Did you hear that? *Anyway, it passed.*

I've looked over your statements and sharing fairly thoroughly. It's good that you tried the taper but as I'm sure you know now, by crippling you with so many restrictions and taking YOU completely out of the taper equation, your doc essentially did a non-Ashton taper. Don't you think? You can only bastardize a thing so much before it is no longer what it was meant to be starting out.

That said, I do agree with Miki here. Xanax is just such a bedeviling, beguiling drug, that once you get free, and for as long as you are right now? Friend I'd just stick it out. Going back to an active use at this stage can REALLY cause you some "interesting times." (And that was the Chinese curse, btw. lol [i]"May you live in interesting times.")

I see you're (apparently) an alcoholic and that is in NO small part the reason why I'm suggesting just Leave Well Enough Alone. You can ride this out, and should.

Finally, here's my original reply coming into the thread. I'm giving you the full 10-Chips Treatment.

Originally Posted by TexasDumb

[...]

EastTex -

Allow me to slip in late here. First you know, there has been a generic Ambien out for some time now. [edit :: and i had to check, and sure enough i was... wrong.
LOL But! Be sure and check real good (call) because my searching indicates it officially became off-patent--with no requests to extend--in October of last year. But, let me know what you find!]

Second, ya never get these things for 'FREE' ya know... I know I'm nit-picking now but you mentioned it twice. And it set off my spider-sensor alarms twice. Time spent getting yourself addicted to something like Xanax for an alcoholic or addict is just priceless in the devils' book.

You always pay, man. Peace of mind is so valuable I don't even think we try and compare it, eh?

"This morning, I even heard what sounded like a clock radio from the other room playing music and people talking. Freaked me out, until I decided to listen to it. It was weird but kinda of cool. Also, I had some body electric jerks, mostly in my chest area, that were timeable, until I concentrated on them and they quit. They would shake me pretty good..
My arms feel like "restless legs," they kind of feel like they want to fly up at the elbows."

Tell ME about it. Give my topic Full Disclosure a read, just the last 2 pages should do you fine, as I've made an effort to go back, circle, and update to keep it accessible to all-comers. That'll wake you--show you that you are SO not alone, anyway.

"But, I can't go on like this with no sleep. My brain will blow up..."

You are very early in clean time, so it can be really freakish to go through. I understand that. But check me: I quit nearly CT from some obnoxiously high levels one week ago now. It was everything you describe man (<---sorry if you're a girl), and more! But you CAN go on like this with no sleep, and that's why I'm addressing that part:

Rest assured that your body & mind have this interesting little survival trick when it comes to sleep: Even for addicts in withdrawal. Sleep will ALWAYS come. You just really needn't be obsessing over that ok? The less you worry over things you have no good reason to worry over, the better all around for you.

Ten

[TexasDumb]

Ten Chips,

I hope you are right.

In my case, it's been two weeks now, and I still can't sleep.

It seems I have developed a pattern of first finally drifting off to sleep for 1 hour, then up for 1 or more, then finally asleep for 2 hours. Then, repeat...

And both times, just praying that the clock says longer than that when I look. I never does.

You are right, though.

I never have gone this long with such little sleep and still have enough energy to almost function. Must be adrenaline......

Thanks,

[windysan]

Originally Posted by Barto

TD,

How long were you on 2.5 mg.? Did you stabilize on that amount, or did you just get down to that amount then quit? If you have cut out ALL caffeine (iced tea, green tea, etc.), and you have tried everything else that I posted, I don’t really know what else to tell you (which has never stopped me from opening my mouth anyway, so why break that tradition here).

My opinion (versus my experience): The valium taper looks like a good idea to me. I’ve been aware of it for nearly a year. I may even cross-over to it if I get to a point that I find I can’t cut slow enough with Xanax (without horrific symptoms). But I am not there, so I don’t know. You, on the other had, were already doing it, sort of.

Also, you may try to find a good doctor that knows about benzos. I think the benzo.org.uk website has a list. Maybe there is one near you. Your symptoms do not sound abnormal to me. I had insomnia, restless leg, tinnitus, digestive disorders, muscle aches, and all kinds of other nasty symptoms when I came off these drugs cold. I am not even sure I realized how bad they were until I went back on the medication. Now my motto is SLOW. One tiny cut per every two weeks or maybe even one per month.

I think reinstating may have saved my ass. But I also suspect quitting caffeine was a major factor for me. So, since you say that you already have quit caffeine, I stand by my original statement, “everybody is different.” This is not a one size fits all deal. That said, I have not heard anybody that has gone through a slow valium taper say it was a mistake.

Hey Windy, I don’t see any AA slogans in that post. Nothing from any of the AA literature anyway. AA World Services’ position on prescription drugs is clear. Basically it is: “No AA member plays doctor. The AA member should be completely honest with himself and a doctor experienced with alcoholism, and informed that the AA member is alcoholic.” You probably already know this, but I get the feeling some others have not read the World Services approved pamphlet entitled “The AA Member- Medications and Other Drugs.” Copyright 1984.

Good to read you though. You still have that hot cup of community decaf ready for me so I can have some when I get off this stuff (if ever)?

"frying pan into the fire"....not an AA slogan I reckon but I've heard it a million times in meetings. that and "switching chairs on the Titanic".

my bad....got carried away and whatnot.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by leeside

I'd like to know where I used an AA slogan? But if it backs up something I said it is ok with me.

Did you know that warm milk is perhaps the best source of mellitonin and that calcium and phosphorus is mentioned in health books to help you to get to sleep? It is, perhaps, a bit trite, and you may think it has been beaten to death, but it still works best for me.

There are much less addictive drugs (I wont mention any because I don't want anyone running to the doc for some) than valium to taper with, which is an addictive drug and not Xanax. Scope the PDR on those drugs and find out. I have been prescribed both and have tried both. Have you?

Yeah, I've tried both. A few thousand of them I think. Trust me when I say you are wrong when it comes to benzo withdrawal. The data is out there.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by Ten Chips Down

... sorry if you're a girl ...
Ten

I guess you missed the post about TD not being able to lick his toes. You see men can’t do that because, well … why is that again TD? Never mind, it’s not that important.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by windysan

....not an AA slogan I reckon but I've heard it a million times in meetings ...

I think that is one of the biggest problems in AA. Too many members do not read the literature, even the “Big Book” (or take the steps; which is “the program”), yet they repeat what they’ve heard others say as if it were the program or otherwise approved in AA literature somewhere. I just get a kick out of watching people hold up a Big Book as they share about stuff that has nothing do with AA at all.

This observation is not aimed at Leeside, or anyone else, specifically. It is a part of AA life. In fact, if I had to find a problem with AA, it would be its members’ opinions. Some of us are still sick! But then again, didn’t Albert Einstein say that the only problem with capitalism is capitalists!

In fact, if AA members were more familiar with our literature, I could work out my benzo business in AA. But as you may suspect, if I tried this today, the room would be divided and up in arms, and I wouldn’t know which end was up. Well, I probably know today, but I wouldn’t have known when I first found this website.

Thanks SR for a place to work it out. And to go further, thanks Misty for your question. I stuck with the cut and I am sleeping like a baby.

A baby what you say? I guess that is another question.

[mikiglen]

i am happy you stuck with it and are finally sleeping
tx, your sleep patterns sound just like mine in early recovery. if you ever get time, go check out home detox part one, and you will see.
ten, you're making it, i'm proud of you

[TexasDumb]

Barto,

Sorry about the 'licking our toes' crack. I thought I was being funny and a little tacky, but it was actually only tacky and crude.
Not funny, and I wish I had not sent it into cyperspace. This morning, I actually emailed this site and asked them if they could delete. Regrets, regrets...I surely did not want to offend anyone. Or be crass.

By the way, I did go to my Doc this morning and am going to re-taper a little and do it right this time....
No beer, taper on schedule or faster if possible, i.e., if not needed, don't take just because it's time.
Maybe, I can sleep tonight.

I have never had insomnia in my life. And this is only the second time I have ever been prescribed Benzos, and I can promise you - it will be the last!

Take care,

[TexasDumb]

Ten Chips,

I am not an alcoholic. Although on occasison, I have been known to abuse alcohol - always beer.
Not trying to stir up a debate with an "or you or or you not."
Moslty, I go weeks and even months between beers. I can drink one or two even if there is a fridge full right in front of me. And friends drinking all around me.
Sometimes, I simply want to be obliterated and that's rare, but still not good.
I get over that stupid idea after my head hurts for three days....

This New Year's, everyone at the party was drinking - except me. Most were socially keeping it within easy limits, but some there, were stumbling, dumb and dumber..
I never got numb and dumb at parties or get-togethers. Just late nights in the safety of my own home - maybe a few long-time friends over, and me having nowhere to go or no obligations to the outside world for the next few days....
Of course, I was just hurting my own health, because 8 hours of fun, is not worth the 30+ hours I pay to get that ethynol out of my system.

That's "too many at one sitting", I do not plan on doing it anymore and maybe even more strict on myself. I kind of like the idea of being able to politely say, "I don't drink alcohol, got any water?."

I don't "get out much anymore - I so used to like to "howl at the moon." But, I'll be 50 next month, grew up during the 70s, Peace Man!, And truth be told - I had my time.....

[Barto]

I was not offended, but I think your later assessment of your reply is accurate. That said, I have done much worse. I am laughing with you, not at you. I try never to take myself to seriously, or anyone else either.

With regard to your decision to reinstate, I like it. You could have gone either way, and I would have lent my support to either because I truly believe “everyone is different.” But if I had to make that decision for my own child, I would have decided as you did. Since you have decided to go the route you have, I would like to caution you about trying to rush it, DON’T. Get rid of that word "faster." It is always possible to go faster, but not always advisable. Faster is not better in this case. SLOWER is the better way here, at least for me (and many others). I had to learn it the hard way. You see by my posts that I am basically already doing what you are going to do.

The trick now may be to stabilize on a dose that you can live with. I don’t know what that dose is, but a good doctor will likely put you back on the dose you were last comfortable with (which may be higher than 2.5 mg.) Good luck. Keep us posted (silly pun intended).

[Barto]

Originally Posted by mikiglen

i am happy you stuck with it and are finally sleeping ...

I never did have a really bad night’s sleep, though. I just slept a little lightly, and that was after the.25mg. cut. The .125mg. cut has given me no real symptoms. In fact, I feel better, a bit more alert. I plan to hold it here for a while. If I start feeling drowsy or continuously forget my doses, I’ll drop down again.

[Barto]

You know I was thinking about our situation and about the things that may really be helping me with my taper (the things I listed). And you may want to look at what brought you to the dance to begin with. If it is the divorce that caused you to seek the doctor or the drugs to begin with, maybe a counselor would help. I don’t know, but something lead you to take these pills to begin with.

I am almost sorry you are not an alcoholic because if you were you could go to AA and likely find a solution to your problem. I am going to steal two quotes from Paulmh who posted them in the secular section of this website. They don’t belong there anyway because they are not secular (they are spiritual), but they are beautiful. The quotes are:

"The ego is sick for the very reason that it is cut off from the whole, and has lost its connection not only with [humanity] but also with the spirit" - Carl Jung

"The problem seems to be that the ego, in singling itself out, has come to view itself as the whole. It is unaware that it is part of something much larger and much greater." -Unidentified Author.

It describes my problem perfectly. I just love these quotes! And isn’t it true of all of us to one degree or another?