XANAX, ATIVAN, KLONOPIN, VALIUM, great info here

[Asylum101]

I think it is stated somewhere in the Ashton Manual, (and in other studies I have read as well), that on average only 10%-15% of the individuals in their studies had experienced moderate to severe withdrawal for any length of time when trying to get off from benzos and of this group even a smaller percentage went on to experience protracted withdrawal symptoms lasting for months, even years. If you factor these studies into the real world, of this last group there is a good chance that only a fraction of them actually come to the conclusion that it is the pills themselves that is the root of their problem where as the rest go on to be misdiagnosed with some other ailment and probably poly drugged as a result.

This is a very small percentage when you take into account the whole equation and because of this it is of no surprise to me that you are not reading about it in the papers or see it on main stream television. The fact is it is written about in many books by actual doctors and it has been brought to the attention of the major new broadcasters and the likes on numerous occasions, but partly because it is such a small number that is effected, and also because it is “bad for business” in many aspects, it either gets put on page 22 of the newspaper listed under some article about how many got killed that day in the war on terrorism or it gets stifled completely. Furthermore, I am certain that if it did make the headlines many would come forward who did not realize that this was even a possibility. And, just because it is only a small percentage that comes to the realization that the benzos are the actually stem of what they are experiencing this doesn’t mean that it is not a HUGE problem for them?

Assuming that the figures of the studies above are true, it would stand to reason that there are going to be those who are skeptical that protracted withdrawal from benzos even exists. Why, because the majority of the population has never been so unfortunate as to experience it for themselves and I for one can understand this to a degree. Had I myself not gone through the hell many of these sufferers have I probably would not understand it either, but I would like to think that I would not be so quick as to judge them either.

I sit here typing this post as living proof that some individuals do in fact suffer for years after freeing themselves from benzos, and for me it is beyond a HUGE problem. I have been off of them for almost 3 years now. Prior to taking them I lived a rather normal life, but since tapering and freeing myself from them I have had to endure a large assortment of debilitating symptoms unimaginable prior to my taking them. I would have never fathomed that this far out I would still have some significant lingering effects preventing me from committing to anything that even resembles a full time job. Though things are slowly improving as time goes by, and I have every reason to believe that in time I will regain most of, if not all that I have lost, (aside from time itself), it is not happening fast enough to my liking I’ll tell you this much! Either way I am glad to be putting the whole experience behind me and I have no choice but to make the best of what I have today.

Yes there are those who benefit from them and/or can walk away from them quite effortlessly, for them I am delighted. Then there are those in-between who do suffer some mild to moderate withdrawal when trying to stop, but are able to move on after a short inconvenience, for them too I am happy. But, for someone to assume that the average individual who is a member of one of the support forums mentioned above does not genuinely suffer as they say they do, that is like stating that those in AA or NA do not suffer either. Not everyone has a problem with alcohol or narcotics, but do you hear the majority of the population stating that alcoholism or drug addiction and the withdrawal experiences and health issues that accompany them are not genuine?

I realize their numbers are small, but think about it. The individuals who make up the vast majority of the memberships of the benzo support forums mentioned above more than likely figure into the lesser percentage that Ashton and the others claim in their studies who go on to suffer protracted withdrawal and you can bet they sought these forums out all on their own in search of answers because of it. Therefore this would explain as to why most of the members found there feel there is a “huge problem”, and rightfully so from my seat. Of course most of the members of a benzo support group are going to have issues with proactive withdrawals. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out. As Buzz said “If I was happy with my Ford it would probably never occur to me to find out who on the Chevy forum doesn't like Fords and why”. They are there and exist for a reason.

Everyone is different, but until one has walked in the others shoes they should not be so quick to judge. Let’s show a little compassion for what we do not understand shall we?

Anyway, that aside,

Hi Victory,

From my experience if Valium can be tolerated and obtained I too would recommend the Valium taper. It is a much smoother path than trying to taper from the other benzos, especially a short acting one such as Xanax. The Ashton equivalency chart differs much from others so there will be some discrepancies found, especially in the States, but what is more relevant is what dose of Valium you can level out at, the lower the dose the better of course, leaving you with the shorter amount of time to taper.

Also, keep in mind that the Ashton taper method is just a rough guide and she herself states so in the manual. Though a good starting point, only you can determine what speed to go at by listening to your body. The key is to keep moving so as not to hit a tolerance stage.

Also, I can state from first hand experience that the central nervous system of one who is going through protracted withdrawal can be very hypersensitive to many of the things someone who is otherwise healthy would take for granted, such as vitamins, caffeine, alcohol and many other supplements or substances. At this point in my recovery I can now consume caffeine and vitamins, but there was a time when these things would irritate my CNS to great extent. As of yet I cannot even think about alcohol and honestly don’t even have the desire to knowing the consequences I will bear were I to. Again, listen to your body and try not to introduce (or eliminate for that matter) more than one thing at a time so that you can determine what effects you and how during your taper.

Best wishes to you

[beckymissy]

My dr. has prescribed ativan, klonopin and now librium to take the edge off when I feel like drinking or using. They all just put me to sleep and do not take any cravings away. Have you heard of anything that will do some real help with the craving issue? If so, I really need to know about it.

[VictoryLee]

Thank you, Asylum. I, too have many friends who are in a protracted w/d. I also have an online friend who direct tapered off of klonopin and had hardly any sx at all. She had been on the K. for 10 years, now at 5 months off she has a full, normal life. I suppose her sx could flare up at any time, but I just don't think that is going to happen. She was very lucky. I am going to give the valium a try. Even if only to lower my xanax dose. I was doing fine on 2mgs. a day, but then many stressors came into my life and my doctor upped my dose. I never felt the need to take more xanax. The 2mgs worked fine for years. But now, at 6mgs. I am in tolerance and having a rough time. I just have to keep my fingers crossed that I am going to be lucky and maybe not have too many sx when this is all over.
Thanks for the reply.


Victory

[windysan]

If you need em, take em. Just be careful with em. If you want off the ride, do the Ashton taper with valium.

I couldn't do it. I liked X's on my eyes too much.

[VictoryLee]

Just curious, Windysan, why do you still want to be on them? Do they work for you? Are you on a very high dose? Do you have to keep going up? Am I being a nosey old lady?? LOL You don't have to give me all that info...just funnin'. I just don't know how I am going to taper without enough valium. That part worries me. I would give up, too, but I think 6mgs is way too much. And I don't feel well. If I could go back to 10 a day, then I would be fine, but my poor liver would probably rebel.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. You sound like a nice person. I appreciate your help.
Have a good, peaceful day.


Victory

[windysan]

Originally Posted by VictoryLee

Just curious, Windysan, why do you still want to be on them? Do they work for you? Are you on a very high dose? Do you have to keep going up? Am I being a nosey old lady?? LOL You don't have to give me all that info...just funnin'. I just don't know how I am going to taper without enough valium. That part worries me. I would give up, too, but I think 6mgs is way too much. And I don't feel well. If I could go back to 10 a day, then I would be fine, but my poor liver would probably rebel.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. You sound like a nice person. I appreciate your help.
Have a good, peaceful day.


Victory

I don't take anything anymore. I had to quit before I died. I have about 2 or 3 beers on some weekends and that is the extent of my "drug" intake. I quit taking anything about 3.5 years ago.

Benzos do start to make you sick if you use them long term. Pills are hell on the liver. It was best for me to get off everything. I did detox/rehab and quit it all. I tried tapering and failed.

I'm much better today.

[VictoryLee]

Well, good for you. And here I thought you were nothing but another benzo head. How wonderful for you that you are off of everything. Why couldn't you do the taper?...here comes my paranoia again Was it just too hard? I think it will be hard for me, too, but I don't see another choice. These drugs are hard on the liver, aren't they?? I knew that, but my doctor said not to worry. Lunatic.
Thanks for talking with me. It is nice to have someone explain things to you. At least it makes me feel better.
Have a nice evening.

Victory

[windysan]

I used the benzos to ease the opiate withdrawal after a hard day with X's on my eyes. I kicked opiates a few times with the help of benzos but then I started eating way too many and then they became a big problem.

If you are wanting to quit then try that Ashton valium taper. It has worked well for many. If you are a garden variety addict like me then you might have a problem having a full bottle around the house

[emmer]

I vomited for 3 weeks going off klonopin. That was the first month.
It took 1 1/2 years to detox from that stuff. After being on it for a month it didn't work as a anti anxiety agent or as a seditive at all. Like heroin the brain builds up a tolerance to the effects and then you need more and more, but to what end??
I've been off the stuff for 6 months and I still don't feel right. Not at all.
I consider it to be as dangerous as any hard drug.
It ruined my life.

[VictoryLee]

Emmer, are you saying the valium ruined your life? I know quite a few people who say the same thing. My one friend has been off of Klonopin for 2 years and is still in bed every day. In fact, her sx are getting worse all the time. What is the alternative, though? I am on such a short acting benzo...xanax, that I can't direct taper from it. It is just so hard to do. And I am in tolerance, so that in between doses, I am a wreck...just waiting to take that next pill. Do you know of any other way to taper???
I was always so sure of the valium taper, but I know SO many people who are still suffering 4 and 5 years out. A girl from BI tapered from K. to valium, was off for a few months and wound up in the hospital under a suicide watch!! This really makes you stop and think. What to do.....


Victory

[emmer]

Here's a fact that many people will find hard to swallow...100% of everyone who stays on benzos long enough will become benzo addicts. It really is true.

Actually it was klonopin (clonazepam) here in Canada that ruined my life.
After I got down to 4-5 mg per day from 13mg, I started seeing a doctor that knew all about benzo addiction. He put me on Valium and I found it way easier to withdrawal from. I tried a faster withdrawal and ended up in hospital by 3 times. Withdrawal has to be done slow,slow,slow...and very carefully. Get a doctor to help( one that knows what there doing)

[RUNVS]

I'm 14 months off of ativan and still feel very disabled. This benzo stuff is very serious and can make you very sick for a long time.

Please Remember This Warning

Now if you read this thread you can't say you didn't know.

[MKM]

I think those bzd boards have not helped me a bit (other than Ashton's actual taper schedule).

The posts on there are nothing but questions about a cut, when to do it, should they cut this week - in other words anxiety.

Then there are the posters with the horror stories. Those that are bedridden and disabled and housebound. I read these daily for a long time and small wonder I dreaded and then was unable to get off a tiny amount of valium.

I have rarely read anything positive on these forums.

One poster even blamed benzos on her toothache! That is medically impossible but she had people answering that yes the bzd caused this.

Another popular theory is that they can get PTSD from a taper (not cold turkey which would sort of make sense) but a slow taper.

I do not doubt at all some people end up with the protracted w/d syndrome
but the question will always be raised that where does the anxiety about this w/d end and the real symptoms start as we all know how insiduous and debilitating anxiety can be?

[Arura]

Ive been looking at some of the benzo sites n wondered if any of you know any good one really,...!

Yep long term Valium user here..., but detoxing from subs,...just took another drop 3 days ago, Ohhhccch. the pooor loo.. .

But i m always intresed in any info on them, as it dont like to not know...!

Thanks for the info so far .....lots of food for thought...

[Live]

I have tapered from 4mg xanax daily to .5mg daily. It was only really rough that month I decided to detox in a month. I am still prescribed 2 mg/day but the .5mg seems to be far more effective than the 4 mg and I am not suffering any protracted symptoms at .5mg, in fact I am feeling much better than I have in awhile. And I have done this gradually but in far less time than the Ashton manual suggests. I have a full bottle of refill right here but am not the least tempted to take more than prescribed, not even the full amount prescribed.
I, for myself, have come to believe that drug induced dependence is not the same as addiction. Whether anyone believes it or not...
I consult with my Dr, am honest about it and have my experience, which is quite real to make my decisions about what is best for me on.
My friend takes the antidepressant Effexor. She says she feels the lack of it if she forgets it. I don't think that means she is addicted, just that she needs the homeostasis of a certain level in her body to treat her condition correctly.
Just sharing my experience. And that I feel fine. Maybe better than fine

[StrongR2Day]

I went CT on 6-8 mg+ of Klonopin a day. Going CT is definitely not a good idea. It took about a year before the post accute withdrawals were completely gone, but they did so slowly, and every day it became more and more manageable. After about a year, I was completely PAWS free.

It certainly was difficult, especially the first couple of weeks, but it was a heck of a lot better than living in the insanity I was in. I was actually stimulated, rather than sedated by the drug. I apparently have a very strange system. Just wanted to give hope that it can be done for anyone willing and able to give it up. I'm on an AD now, and have no anxiety that is unmanageable.

Just, please, don't go CT.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by MKM

I think those bzd boards have not helped me a bit (other than Ashton's actual taper schedule).

The posts on there are nothing but questions about a cut, when to do it, should they cut this week - in other words anxiety.

Then there are the posters with the horror stories. Those that are bedridden and disabled and housebound. I read these daily for a long time and small wonder I dreaded and then was unable to get off a tiny amount of valium.

I have rarely read anything positive on these forums.

One poster even blamed benzos on her toothache! That is medically impossible but she had people answering that yes the bzd caused this.

Another popular theory is that they can get PTSD from a taper (not cold turkey which would sort of make sense) but a slow taper.

I do not doubt at all some people end up with the protracted w/d syndrome
but the question will always be raised that where does the anxiety about this w/d end and the real symptoms start as we all know how insiduous and debilitating anxiety can be?

Those benzo boards really don't care for addicts. They're more about "accidental addicts". I've read some posts in those boards that'll scare the devil. The benzo island board is cult-like.

I've read posts by people afraid of tap water. Pretty goofy if you ask me.

Don't dare disagree with any of the moderators or "professionals" on those benzo sites....you'll definitely get the boot for disagreeing with anything regarding benzos, dope, politics, and tap water.

[woops]

Hot water and lemon is the cure for everything!

[Arura]

Thanks for the tip...For warned is for armed,as they say,...!

Shame the Drs dont tell us just, how much Benzo's mess you up..., in the first place...

....!

[woops]

AMEN
to that Arura!

[RUNVS]

Originally Posted by Arura

Ive been looking at some of the benzo sites n wondered if any of you know any good one really,...!

Yep long term Valium user here..., but detoxing from subs,...just took another drop 3 days ago, Ohhhccch. the pooor loo.. .

But i m always intresed in any info on them, as it dont like to not know...!

Thanks for the info so far .....lots of food for thought...

http://www.benzobuddies.org/community/

[Alan]

I must admit after reading this thread I learned a lot about benzo w/d. This drug was my silent killer. I started taking xanax on top of hydro when the 25 hydro was no longer getting me high. When I stopped c/t on August 29th, I thought the withdrawl would be like any other before. Ive had plenty of those
days and was used to it. Just another kick. On day 2 of W/d I did something different. I prayed to god like I never have because I felt death on my doorstep. I was thinking of ways to kill myself and considered seriously within the first 10 days ways of doing so. I dont know what is considered a large dose of xanax butI was taking about 15-20 2mg bars.I guess thats about 30-40 mg a day. My worst day of xanax use, and the day I finally figured out I had a problem, was when I woke up sleeping behind my car with the doors open in a supermarket parking lot in Philadelphia over 100 miles from home. I got in my car and drove to a Holiday Inn. I hit the bathroom, popped 4 vicoden, snorted 2, popped 3 xanax and snorted one, then left the hotel like nothing happened. Got in the car and drove with my music on till I got home.
I never shared this story with anyone because Im not proud of it. When I got
home, my best friends wife called me. It was their 1 year anniversary. She asked me to come over and talk with my friend because he didnt want her near the house and was sitting on his deck with a .357 asking me why he shouldnt kill himself. He was 3 days off of Hydro/Benzos. He was the least likely of friends to get addicted to percocet and hydro/xanax. Just 9 months earlier he was clean for 23 years. He started a script of endocet when he started getting arthritis pain in his hand. I was an alcoholic druggie all my life
but got hooked on hydro when I went thru severe sciatic pain in my leg. The pain was unbearable. I started buying my gear from online pharmas in Tampa and would fly down to Puerto Vallarta Mexico for a pharmacy run and some good tequila. Nothing like flying thru the mexican mountains on a quad at high speed smashed on chemicals. I stayed with my friend that day and started detoxing that minute with him. After a 5 day taper to .50 mg a day I went home and him back to work. I made the call when I got home and the next morning my fed-ex driver greeted me with a smile and my gear for the next three or four days. My contracting business went belly up and I gave in fully to my disease. I spent the next two weeks in a constant nod. I sold all of my gold coins from my collection to feed my addiction. On august 29th I had had enough. It was a friday and I was sick. My driver was used to seeing me sick. He came to the door with my goods but I did not answer to sign for them. Once he left I knew I could not drive to get them. My sinus pain was so extreme and painful that I snorted ora-gel up my nose. Ora-gel is used for tooth pain. I then paced my apartment for 10 hours until I passed out. The next morning I chugged a half bottle of cherry ny-quil and smoked some grass. I sat in a blank stare for the day. On day four, my prayers were answered by way of my parents. I stopped talking to my family 5 months prior. I blamed them for not talking to them. My mother and father had come to visit me on Labor Day. I was scared out of my mind when I heard a knock at the door. I was not going to answer until I saw my mothers face. The face of worry and I could not do that to her. I spent the following 2 1/2 weeks with my parents at home, and I feel was the reason I was able to stop for these 26 days, and also my reason for praying to god on day 2 of my w/ds. I believe in god again now like I did so long ago. My relationship with god has been rekindled. I am 26 days clean today and am having a hard, hard time with the withdrawls from xanax. I can not do any work. I have to find a new apartment in two weeks. I am completely broke. But I have faith things will get better and I will pick myself up again some day soon. I started on Zoloft yesterday and had a 5 hour panic attack 3 hours after taking it. Today I developed my first headace since I started w/d. I spent time with my best friend today whos wife had their first baby Saturday nite and she is wonderful. I guess I just need to know how to handle the xanax w/ds because they have been so bad for so long. I went to the e/r Friday and tests came back I was ok. I feel like I am going to have a heart attack and it has me worried a lot. So far, the Zoloft does not live up to the xanax but that
will have to be it from now on. I didnt loose my sense of humor at least. I just
am sorry others that have to battle a benzo w/d. It is a horrific w/d.:ab

[windysan]

Alan,

I'm glad you decided to get off the ride. With all that abuse it'll take time to get your head together. Just don't go back to the dope and you'll be okay. It just takes time. Glad you didn't die.

[MKM]

It was the island benzo forum that I had read so many horror stories about.

The above referenced linked one benzobuddies is a good one and I joined it about a year ago, then got on late this past spring and was very disappointed to see it was not a very active board at all. Unless I am misreading the posting dates, it seemed like it was one post a week by people.

They are more tolerant of different input but I wish it were far more active than it is.

[MKM]

Alan: my gosh that is some quick taper.

You are very strong to withstand such a thing. I know how a moderate or slow taper can feel, ugh, something as fast as you are doing sounds near impossible, but at least you were checked out ok at er.

Did you tell them you tapered that fast and they said that was ok? I think that is how they do this in a detox though - that quickly.

I beleive some a/d can make you feel more anxious when you get on them and they take a week or two to start having any effect, someone who knows more about these will probably be along to answer that.