PAWS-- Information
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
PAWS-- Information
Here is some information on PAWS, I will add more later, I am heading out the door to go to a meeting 
This is very impiortant info, in my opinion, if you experience these symptoms, you will understand it is normal, and you are not going crazy...
When most people think about alcoholism or drug addiction they think only of the alcohol/drug-based symptoms and forget about the sobriety-based symptoms. Yet it is the sobriety-based symptoms, especially post acute withdrawal, that make sobriety so difficult. The presence of brain dysfunction has been documented in 75-95% of the recovering alcoholics/addicts tested. Recent research indicates that the symptoms of post-acute withdrawal associated with alcohol/drug-related damage to the brain may contribute to many cases of relapse.
Post-acute withdrawal means symptoms that occur after acute withdrawal. Post means after. And syndrome means a group of symptoms.
Syndrome: A group of symptoms
Post: After
Post Acute Withdrawal: Symptoms that occur after acute withdrawal.
Post-acute withdrawal is a group of symptoms of addictive disease that occur as a result of abstinence from addictive chemicals. In the alcoholic/addict these symptoms appear seven to fourteen days into abstinence, after stabilization from the acute withdrawal.
Post-acute withdrawal is a bio-psycho-social syndrome. It results from the combination of damage to the nervous system caused by alcohol or drugs and the psychosocial stress of coping with life without drugs or alcohol.
Recovery causes a great deal of stress. Many chemically dependent people never learn to manage stress without alcohol and drug use. The stress aggravates the brain dysfunction and makes the symptoms worse. The severity of PAW depends upon two things: the severity of the brain dysfunction caused by the addiction and the amount of psychosocial stress experienced in recovery.
The symptoms of PAW typically grow to peak intensity over three to six months after abstinence begins. The damage is usually reversible, meaning the major symptoms go away in time if proper treatment is received. So there is no need to fear. With proper treatment and effective sober living, it is possible to learn to live normally in spite of the impairments. But the adjustment does not occur rapidly. Recovery from the nervous system damage usually required from six to 24 months with the assistance of a healthy recovery program. Recent research is showing that for some recovering people the symptoms of PAW often occur at regular "moon cycle" intervals and without apparent outside stressors. Often those 30, 60, 90, 120, 180, and 1 & 2-year sobriety dates seem to be "triggering" times for PAW symptoms to increase. People recovering from long term opiate and stimulant use often have PAW symptoms for no apparent reason for up to 10 years after they have stopped using their drug of choice. Often PAW symptoms appear to come and go without apparent reason and without any specific pattern. Individuals who intend to have consistent long-term recovery must learn to recognize these symptoms and learn how to manage them.
SYMPTOMS OF POST ACUTE WITHDRAWAL
How do you know if you have PAW? The most identifiable characteristic is the inability to solve usually simple problems. There are six major types of PAW symptoms that contribute to this They are the inability to think clearly, memory problems, emotional overreactions and numbness, sleep disturbances, physical coordination problems, and general problems in managing stress. The inability to solve usually simple problems because of any or all of these symptoms leads to diminished self-esteem. A person often feels incompetent, embarrassed, and “not okay” about themselves. Diminished self-esteem and the fear of failure interfere with productive and challenging living. Let’s take a look at some of the PAW symptoms that contribute to the inability to solve usually simple problems.
TYPES OF PAW SYMPTOMS
1. Inability to think clearly
2. Memory problems
3. Emotional overreactions or numbness
4. Sleep disturbances
5. Physical coordination problems
6. Stress sensitivity
This is very impiortant info, in my opinion, if you experience these symptoms, you will understand it is normal, and you are not going crazy...When most people think about alcoholism or drug addiction they think only of the alcohol/drug-based symptoms and forget about the sobriety-based symptoms. Yet it is the sobriety-based symptoms, especially post acute withdrawal, that make sobriety so difficult. The presence of brain dysfunction has been documented in 75-95% of the recovering alcoholics/addicts tested. Recent research indicates that the symptoms of post-acute withdrawal associated with alcohol/drug-related damage to the brain may contribute to many cases of relapse.
Post-acute withdrawal means symptoms that occur after acute withdrawal. Post means after. And syndrome means a group of symptoms.
Syndrome: A group of symptoms
Post: After
Post Acute Withdrawal: Symptoms that occur after acute withdrawal.
Post-acute withdrawal is a group of symptoms of addictive disease that occur as a result of abstinence from addictive chemicals. In the alcoholic/addict these symptoms appear seven to fourteen days into abstinence, after stabilization from the acute withdrawal.
Post-acute withdrawal is a bio-psycho-social syndrome. It results from the combination of damage to the nervous system caused by alcohol or drugs and the psychosocial stress of coping with life without drugs or alcohol.
Recovery causes a great deal of stress. Many chemically dependent people never learn to manage stress without alcohol and drug use. The stress aggravates the brain dysfunction and makes the symptoms worse. The severity of PAW depends upon two things: the severity of the brain dysfunction caused by the addiction and the amount of psychosocial stress experienced in recovery.
The symptoms of PAW typically grow to peak intensity over three to six months after abstinence begins. The damage is usually reversible, meaning the major symptoms go away in time if proper treatment is received. So there is no need to fear. With proper treatment and effective sober living, it is possible to learn to live normally in spite of the impairments. But the adjustment does not occur rapidly. Recovery from the nervous system damage usually required from six to 24 months with the assistance of a healthy recovery program. Recent research is showing that for some recovering people the symptoms of PAW often occur at regular "moon cycle" intervals and without apparent outside stressors. Often those 30, 60, 90, 120, 180, and 1 & 2-year sobriety dates seem to be "triggering" times for PAW symptoms to increase. People recovering from long term opiate and stimulant use often have PAW symptoms for no apparent reason for up to 10 years after they have stopped using their drug of choice. Often PAW symptoms appear to come and go without apparent reason and without any specific pattern. Individuals who intend to have consistent long-term recovery must learn to recognize these symptoms and learn how to manage them.
SYMPTOMS OF POST ACUTE WITHDRAWAL
How do you know if you have PAW? The most identifiable characteristic is the inability to solve usually simple problems. There are six major types of PAW symptoms that contribute to this They are the inability to think clearly, memory problems, emotional overreactions and numbness, sleep disturbances, physical coordination problems, and general problems in managing stress. The inability to solve usually simple problems because of any or all of these symptoms leads to diminished self-esteem. A person often feels incompetent, embarrassed, and “not okay” about themselves. Diminished self-esteem and the fear of failure interfere with productive and challenging living. Let’s take a look at some of the PAW symptoms that contribute to the inability to solve usually simple problems.
TYPES OF PAW SYMPTOMS
1. Inability to think clearly
2. Memory problems
3. Emotional overreactions or numbness
4. Sleep disturbances
5. Physical coordination problems
6. Stress sensitivity
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Heres some more,,,,
Post-acute withdrawal symptoms are not the same in everyone. They vary in how severe they are, how often they occur, and how long they last. Some people experience certain symptoms; some people have other symptoms; some people have none at all.
Over a period of time PAW may get better, it may get worse it may stay the same, or it may come and go. If it gets better with time we call it regenerative. If it gets worse we call it degenerative. If it stays the same we call it stable. And if it comes and goes we call it intermittent.
Regenerative PAW gradually improves over time. The longer a person is sober the less severe the symptoms become. It is easier for people with regenerative PAW to recover because the brain rapidly returns to normal.
Degenerative PAW is the opposite. The symptoms get worse the longer a person is sober. This may happen even when a person is going to AA/NA and/or following some type of recovery program. People with degenerative PAW tend to become relapse prone. Sobriety becomes so painful that they feel they must self-medicate the pain with alcohol or drugs, collapse physically or emotionally, or commit suicide to end the pain.
A person with stable PAW experiences the same level of symptoms for a long period of time into recovery. There may be days when the symptoms are a little better or a little worse, but essentially the symptoms remain unchanged. Most recovering people find this very frustrating because they believe that they should be feeling better the longer they are sober. With sufficient sober time many people learn to manage these symptoms.
With intermittent PAW the symptoms come and go. Initially people with intermittent symptoms will appear to experience a regenerative pattern. In other words, their symptoms rapidly get better. But them they begin to experience periodic PAW episodes that can be quite severe. For some people the episodes get shorter, less severe, and farther apart until they stop altogether. In others they occur periodically throughout life.
These patterns describe people who have not had treatment for PAW and who do not know how to manage or prevent the symptoms. Traditional treatment does not address these symptoms because until recently they were unrecognized. If you know what to do and you are willing to do it, degenerative PAW can be changed into stable, stable into regenerative, and regenerative into intermittent PAW.
The most common pattern of PAW is regenerative and over time it becomes intermittent. It gradually gets better until the symptoms disappear and then it comes and goes. The first step is to bring PAW symptoms into remission. This means bringing them under control so that you are not experiencing them at the present time. Then the goal is to reduce how often they occur, how long the episode lasts, and how bad the symptoms are. You must remember that even when you are not experiencing them there is always the tendency for them to recur. It is necessary to build a resistance against them – an insurance policy that lowers your risk.
MANAGING PAW SYMPTOMS
The less you do to strengthen yourself against an episode of post-acute withdrawal, the weaker your resistance becomes. It is like a tetanus shot. The longer it has been since you have had one, the more risk there is that you will become seriously ill if you cut yourself on a piece of rusty metal. Conditions that put you in high risk of experiencing post acute withdrawal symptoms are usually lack of care of yourself and lack of attention to your recovery program. If you are going to recover without relapse you need to be aware of stressful situations in your life that can increase your risk of experiencing PAW.
Since you cannot remove yourself from all stressful situations you need to prepare yourself to handle them when they occur. It is not the situation that makes you go to pieces; it is your reaction to the situation.
Because stress triggers and intensifies the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, learning to manage stress can control PAW. You can learn to identify sources of stress and develop skills in decision making and problem solving to help reduce stress. Proper diet, exercise, regular habits, and positive attitudes all play important parts in controlling PAW. Relaxation can be used as a tool to retrain the brain to function properly and to reduce stress.
Post-acute withdrawal symptoms are not the same in everyone. They vary in how severe they are, how often they occur, and how long they last. Some people experience certain symptoms; some people have other symptoms; some people have none at all.
Over a period of time PAW may get better, it may get worse it may stay the same, or it may come and go. If it gets better with time we call it regenerative. If it gets worse we call it degenerative. If it stays the same we call it stable. And if it comes and goes we call it intermittent.
Regenerative PAW gradually improves over time. The longer a person is sober the less severe the symptoms become. It is easier for people with regenerative PAW to recover because the brain rapidly returns to normal.
Degenerative PAW is the opposite. The symptoms get worse the longer a person is sober. This may happen even when a person is going to AA/NA and/or following some type of recovery program. People with degenerative PAW tend to become relapse prone. Sobriety becomes so painful that they feel they must self-medicate the pain with alcohol or drugs, collapse physically or emotionally, or commit suicide to end the pain.
A person with stable PAW experiences the same level of symptoms for a long period of time into recovery. There may be days when the symptoms are a little better or a little worse, but essentially the symptoms remain unchanged. Most recovering people find this very frustrating because they believe that they should be feeling better the longer they are sober. With sufficient sober time many people learn to manage these symptoms.
With intermittent PAW the symptoms come and go. Initially people with intermittent symptoms will appear to experience a regenerative pattern. In other words, their symptoms rapidly get better. But them they begin to experience periodic PAW episodes that can be quite severe. For some people the episodes get shorter, less severe, and farther apart until they stop altogether. In others they occur periodically throughout life.
These patterns describe people who have not had treatment for PAW and who do not know how to manage or prevent the symptoms. Traditional treatment does not address these symptoms because until recently they were unrecognized. If you know what to do and you are willing to do it, degenerative PAW can be changed into stable, stable into regenerative, and regenerative into intermittent PAW.
The most common pattern of PAW is regenerative and over time it becomes intermittent. It gradually gets better until the symptoms disappear and then it comes and goes. The first step is to bring PAW symptoms into remission. This means bringing them under control so that you are not experiencing them at the present time. Then the goal is to reduce how often they occur, how long the episode lasts, and how bad the symptoms are. You must remember that even when you are not experiencing them there is always the tendency for them to recur. It is necessary to build a resistance against them – an insurance policy that lowers your risk.
MANAGING PAW SYMPTOMS
The less you do to strengthen yourself against an episode of post-acute withdrawal, the weaker your resistance becomes. It is like a tetanus shot. The longer it has been since you have had one, the more risk there is that you will become seriously ill if you cut yourself on a piece of rusty metal. Conditions that put you in high risk of experiencing post acute withdrawal symptoms are usually lack of care of yourself and lack of attention to your recovery program. If you are going to recover without relapse you need to be aware of stressful situations in your life that can increase your risk of experiencing PAW.
Since you cannot remove yourself from all stressful situations you need to prepare yourself to handle them when they occur. It is not the situation that makes you go to pieces; it is your reaction to the situation.
Because stress triggers and intensifies the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, learning to manage stress can control PAW. You can learn to identify sources of stress and develop skills in decision making and problem solving to help reduce stress. Proper diet, exercise, regular habits, and positive attitudes all play important parts in controlling PAW. Relaxation can be used as a tool to retrain the brain to function properly and to reduce stress.
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
More yet;;;
Stabilization
If you are experiencing post acute withdrawal symptoms, it is important to bring them under control as soon as possible. Here are some suggestions that may help you be aware of what is going on and help you to interrupt the symptoms before they get out of control.
Verbalization: Start talking to people who are not going to accuse, criticize, or minimize. You need to talk about what you are experiencing. It will help you look at your situation more realistically. It will help you bring internal symptoms to your conscious awareness. And it will give you support when you need others to rely upon.
Ventilation: Express as much as you can about what you are thinking and feeling even if it seems irrational and unfounded.
Reality Testing: Ask someone if you are making sense. Not just what you are saying but your behavior. Your perception of what is going on may be very different from reality.
Problem Solving and Goal Setting: What are you going to do right now about what is going on? You can choose to take action that can change things.
Backtracking: Think back over what has been happening. Can you identify how the episode started? What could have turned it off sooner? Think of other times that you were experiencing symptoms of PAW. What turned it on? What turned it off? Were there other options that might have worked better or sooner?
Education and Retraining
Learning about addictive disease, recovery, and post acute withdrawal symptoms helps to relieve the anxiety, guilt, and confusion that tend to create the stress that intensify PAW symptoms. As a recovering person, you need information in order to realize what symptoms are normal during recovery.
You also need to learn management skills so that you will know what to do to interrupt and control the stress and the symptoms when they occur. Through retraining you can improve your ability to remember, to concentrate, and to think clearly. Retraining involves practicing certain skills in a safe environment as you build confidence. It includes learning to take things step by step and to handle one thing at a time so you do not feel overwhelmed. It includes writing down what you want to remember and asking questions when you think that need to have something clarified.
Learning about the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, knowing what to expect, and not overreacting to the symptoms increase the ability to function appropriately and effectively.
Self-Protective Behavior
When all is said and done, you are responsible for protecting yourself from anything that threatens your sobriety or anything that triggers post acute withdrawal symptoms. Reducing the stress resulting from and contributing to the symptoms of post acute withdrawal must be of prime consideration for you. You must learn behavior that will protect you from the stress that might put your sobriety in jeopardy. This self-protective behavior is behavior that will enable you to be firm in accepting your own needs and not allowing other people or situations to push you into reactions that are not in the best interest of your sobriety.
In order to protect yourself from unnecessary stress, you must first identify your own stress triggers, those situations that might bring about an overreaction from you. Then learn to change those situations, avoid them, change your reactions, or learn to interrupt them before they get out of control.
Nutrition
The way you eat has a lot to do with the level of stress you experience and your ability to manage the symptoms of post-acute withdrawal. Poor health itself contributes to stress, and malnutrition contributes to poor health. You may be malnourished because of poor eating habits or because your body, damaged by alcohol or drugs, was unable to use the nutrients that you consumed.
Abstinence from alcohol and drugs will bring about some improvement but abstinence alone is not sufficient to rebuild damaged body tissue and maintain good health. New eating habits must be established and practiced regularly and permanently. Your daily diet should contain a balance of vegetables, fruit, carbohydrates, proteins, fats, and dairy products. Ask a nutritionist to help you figure out how many calories you need each day and what quantities of each type of food.
DIET FOR A RECOVERING PERSON
- Three Well-Balanced Meals Daily –
- Three Nutritious Snacks Daily –
- No Sugar and Caffeine –
Hunger produces stress. Try to plan your eating schedule so that you do not skip meals and so that you can have periodic nutritious snacks. Do not eat candy, donuts, soft drinks, potato chips, or other high calorie, low nutrient foods. You should specifically avoid foods that produce stress such as concentrated sweets and caffeine. Both of these produce the same kind of chemical reaction in your body as being frightened or overly excited. Concentrated sweets such as candy, jelly, syrup, and sugar-sweetened soft drinks will give you a quick “pick-up,” but you will experience a let-down about an hour later accompanied by nervousness and irritability. Remember that your reason for eating a snack is to combat fatigue and nervousness. Have a nutritious snack before you feel hungry to prevent a craving for sweets.
Jayne, a recovering alcoholic, was in the habit of eating a large quantity of ice cream every night. She often talked about the craving for it she felt, and believed that by eating it she was reducing a craving for alcohol. The next morning she always felt sluggish and irritable. Throughout the day her stress increased until it was relieved by the ice cream. When her counselor suggested that she remove the ice cream from her diet she felt she could not get along without it. When she and her counselor examined her diet they found that she ate no breakfast and was not getting adequate nutrition throughout the day. She agreed to try eating a balanced diet and to eliminate the ice cream on a trial basis. She discovered that when she ate a balanced diet and ate regular meals and several nutritious snacks throughout the day her craving for ice cream disappeared and she could easily eliminate it from her life.
Caffeine also causes nervousness and restlessness. It may also interfere with concentration and your ability to sleep. Loss of sleep or irregular sleep causes irritability, depression, and anxiety.
Exercise
Exercise helps rebuild the body and keep it functioning properly while also reducing stress. Exercise produces chemicals in your brain that make you feel good. These chemicals are nature’s own tranquilizers to relieve pain, anxiety, and tension.
Different types of exercise are helpful for different reasons. Stretching and aerobic exercise will probably be most helpful for your recovery. Stretching exercises help to keep your body limber and to relieve muscle tension. Aerobics are rhythmical and vigorous exercises for the large muscles. Aerobics are intended to raise your heart rate to 75% of its maximum rate and maintain that rate for at least 20-30 minutes.
We recommend regular use of aerobic exercise. Jogging, swimming, jumping rope, and bicycling are common aerobic exercises, or you might want to join an aerobics class. Dancing can also be aerobic, but remember that it must be done vigorously.
Many recovering people will testify to the value of exercise in reducing the intensity of PAW symptoms. After they exercise they feel much better, find it easier to concentrate and remember, and are able to be more productive.
Choose a form of exercise that is fun for you so that you will stick with it. Most doctors and health books will tell you to exercise three or four times a week, but we recommend that recovering people make time for it every day because of its value in reducing stress. Any day that you do not exercise is a day that you are cheating yourself of a way to feel more relaxed, be more productive, and have more energy. Whatever exercise you choose, remember, do not over-do it! If it hurts don't do it. The old adage "no pain, no gain" is not true for recovering people. Consistency and regularity are the key words for the recovering person.
Relaxation
There are things you can do to readily reduce or escape the stress you feel when you are unable to change a situation or to better cope with the stress of everyday living. Laughing, playing, listening to music, story telling, fantasizing, reading, and massage are some methods of natural stress reduction.
Playing is a necessary form of relaxation that is often neglected. It is difficult to define play because it is not so much what you do as how you do it. We all need time for having fun, laughing, being childlike and free. There are other “diversions” you can use as natural stress reducers. Try a body massage, a bubble bath, a walk by yourself or with a friend.
Deep relaxation is a way of relaxing the body and mind to reduce stress and produce a sense of well-being. Deep relaxation rebalances the body and reduces the production of stress hormones. What happens when you relax is the opposite of the “fight or flight” reaction. When you relax, your muscles become heavy, your body temperature rises, and your breathing and heart rate slow down. A muscle cannot relax and tense at the same time. It is impossible to maintain tension while physically relaxing. You can learn techniques to allow your body to relax. The distress resulting from thought process impairments, emotional process impairments, memory impairments, and stress sensitivity can be reduced or relieved through proper use of relaxation.
There are a variety of relaxation exercises that you can use. You can get a book that will offer you a selection of exercises or you can purchase tape-recorded exercises. You can close your eyes in a comfortable position and repeat a pleasant word over and over to yourself. Or you can imagine yourself in a soothing environment such as by a quiet lake or in a green meadow. Pick a method that is relaxing to you and use it often. You will find it a helpful aid for reducing stress and creating peace of mind and serenity.
Stabilization
If you are experiencing post acute withdrawal symptoms, it is important to bring them under control as soon as possible. Here are some suggestions that may help you be aware of what is going on and help you to interrupt the symptoms before they get out of control.
Verbalization: Start talking to people who are not going to accuse, criticize, or minimize. You need to talk about what you are experiencing. It will help you look at your situation more realistically. It will help you bring internal symptoms to your conscious awareness. And it will give you support when you need others to rely upon.
Ventilation: Express as much as you can about what you are thinking and feeling even if it seems irrational and unfounded.
Reality Testing: Ask someone if you are making sense. Not just what you are saying but your behavior. Your perception of what is going on may be very different from reality.
Problem Solving and Goal Setting: What are you going to do right now about what is going on? You can choose to take action that can change things.
Backtracking: Think back over what has been happening. Can you identify how the episode started? What could have turned it off sooner? Think of other times that you were experiencing symptoms of PAW. What turned it on? What turned it off? Were there other options that might have worked better or sooner?
Education and Retraining
Learning about addictive disease, recovery, and post acute withdrawal symptoms helps to relieve the anxiety, guilt, and confusion that tend to create the stress that intensify PAW symptoms. As a recovering person, you need information in order to realize what symptoms are normal during recovery.
You also need to learn management skills so that you will know what to do to interrupt and control the stress and the symptoms when they occur. Through retraining you can improve your ability to remember, to concentrate, and to think clearly. Retraining involves practicing certain skills in a safe environment as you build confidence. It includes learning to take things step by step and to handle one thing at a time so you do not feel overwhelmed. It includes writing down what you want to remember and asking questions when you think that need to have something clarified.
Learning about the symptoms of post acute withdrawal, knowing what to expect, and not overreacting to the symptoms increase the ability to function appropriately and effectively.
Self-Protective Behavior
When all is said and done, you are responsible for protecting yourself from anything that threatens your sobriety or anything that triggers post acute withdrawal symptoms. Reducing the stress resulting from and contributing to the symptoms of post acute withdrawal must be of prime consideration for you. You must learn behavior that will protect you from the stress that might put your sobriety in jeopardy. This self-protective behavior is behavior that will enable you to be firm in accepting your own needs and not allowing other people or situations to push you into reactions that are not in the best interest of your sobriety.
In order to protect yourself from unnecessary stress, you must first identify your own stress triggers, those situations that might bring about an overreaction from you. Then learn to change those situations, avoid them, change your reactions, or learn to interrupt them before they get out of control.
Nutrition
The way you eat has a lot to do with the level of stress you experience and your ability to manage the symptoms of post-acute withdrawal. Poor health itself contributes to stress, and malnutrition contributes to poor health. You may be malnourished because of poor eating habits or because your body, damaged by alcohol or drugs, was unable to use the nutrients that you consumed.
Abstinence from alcohol and drugs will bring about some improvement but abstinence alone is not sufficient to rebuild damaged body tissue and maintain good health. New eating habits must be established and practiced regularly and permanently. Your daily diet should contain a balance of vegetables, fruit, carbohydrates, proteins, fats, and dairy products. Ask a nutritionist to help you figure out how many calories you need each day and what quantities of each type of food.
DIET FOR A RECOVERING PERSON
- Three Well-Balanced Meals Daily –
- Three Nutritious Snacks Daily –
- No Sugar and Caffeine –
Hunger produces stress. Try to plan your eating schedule so that you do not skip meals and so that you can have periodic nutritious snacks. Do not eat candy, donuts, soft drinks, potato chips, or other high calorie, low nutrient foods. You should specifically avoid foods that produce stress such as concentrated sweets and caffeine. Both of these produce the same kind of chemical reaction in your body as being frightened or overly excited. Concentrated sweets such as candy, jelly, syrup, and sugar-sweetened soft drinks will give you a quick “pick-up,” but you will experience a let-down about an hour later accompanied by nervousness and irritability. Remember that your reason for eating a snack is to combat fatigue and nervousness. Have a nutritious snack before you feel hungry to prevent a craving for sweets.
Jayne, a recovering alcoholic, was in the habit of eating a large quantity of ice cream every night. She often talked about the craving for it she felt, and believed that by eating it she was reducing a craving for alcohol. The next morning she always felt sluggish and irritable. Throughout the day her stress increased until it was relieved by the ice cream. When her counselor suggested that she remove the ice cream from her diet she felt she could not get along without it. When she and her counselor examined her diet they found that she ate no breakfast and was not getting adequate nutrition throughout the day. She agreed to try eating a balanced diet and to eliminate the ice cream on a trial basis. She discovered that when she ate a balanced diet and ate regular meals and several nutritious snacks throughout the day her craving for ice cream disappeared and she could easily eliminate it from her life.
Caffeine also causes nervousness and restlessness. It may also interfere with concentration and your ability to sleep. Loss of sleep or irregular sleep causes irritability, depression, and anxiety.
Exercise
Exercise helps rebuild the body and keep it functioning properly while also reducing stress. Exercise produces chemicals in your brain that make you feel good. These chemicals are nature’s own tranquilizers to relieve pain, anxiety, and tension.
Different types of exercise are helpful for different reasons. Stretching and aerobic exercise will probably be most helpful for your recovery. Stretching exercises help to keep your body limber and to relieve muscle tension. Aerobics are rhythmical and vigorous exercises for the large muscles. Aerobics are intended to raise your heart rate to 75% of its maximum rate and maintain that rate for at least 20-30 minutes.
We recommend regular use of aerobic exercise. Jogging, swimming, jumping rope, and bicycling are common aerobic exercises, or you might want to join an aerobics class. Dancing can also be aerobic, but remember that it must be done vigorously.
Many recovering people will testify to the value of exercise in reducing the intensity of PAW symptoms. After they exercise they feel much better, find it easier to concentrate and remember, and are able to be more productive.
Choose a form of exercise that is fun for you so that you will stick with it. Most doctors and health books will tell you to exercise three or four times a week, but we recommend that recovering people make time for it every day because of its value in reducing stress. Any day that you do not exercise is a day that you are cheating yourself of a way to feel more relaxed, be more productive, and have more energy. Whatever exercise you choose, remember, do not over-do it! If it hurts don't do it. The old adage "no pain, no gain" is not true for recovering people. Consistency and regularity are the key words for the recovering person.
Relaxation
There are things you can do to readily reduce or escape the stress you feel when you are unable to change a situation or to better cope with the stress of everyday living. Laughing, playing, listening to music, story telling, fantasizing, reading, and massage are some methods of natural stress reduction.
Playing is a necessary form of relaxation that is often neglected. It is difficult to define play because it is not so much what you do as how you do it. We all need time for having fun, laughing, being childlike and free. There are other “diversions” you can use as natural stress reducers. Try a body massage, a bubble bath, a walk by yourself or with a friend.
Deep relaxation is a way of relaxing the body and mind to reduce stress and produce a sense of well-being. Deep relaxation rebalances the body and reduces the production of stress hormones. What happens when you relax is the opposite of the “fight or flight” reaction. When you relax, your muscles become heavy, your body temperature rises, and your breathing and heart rate slow down. A muscle cannot relax and tense at the same time. It is impossible to maintain tension while physically relaxing. You can learn techniques to allow your body to relax. The distress resulting from thought process impairments, emotional process impairments, memory impairments, and stress sensitivity can be reduced or relieved through proper use of relaxation.
There are a variety of relaxation exercises that you can use. You can get a book that will offer you a selection of exercises or you can purchase tape-recorded exercises. You can close your eyes in a comfortable position and repeat a pleasant word over and over to yourself. Or you can imagine yourself in a soothing environment such as by a quiet lake or in a green meadow. Pick a method that is relaxing to you and use it often. You will find it a helpful aid for reducing stress and creating peace of mind and serenity.
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Here is the last I have on it for now, Alera pleaselet me know if you see this. I am late for my meeting I have to go,,
Love ya all,,
Becky
Spirituality can be defined as "an active relationship with a power greater than yourself that gives your life meaning and purpose." When you work a spiritual program, you consciously, actively attempt to become a part of something bigger, greater, and more powerful than yourself.
Belief in a Higher Power takes you out of the center of your universe and offers peace of mind and serenity by an awareness that there is a power that is not restricted by your weaknesses and limitations. Through spiritual development you can develop new confidence in your own abilities and develop a new sense of hope. It is through a spiritual program that you can reach with hope and a positive attitude toward the future.
In working on your spirituality it is important for you to use the principles of the AA/NA program. AA/NA provides guidelines for “increasing your conscious contact with your higher power.” You do not have to have any one image of your higher power to increase your conscious contact. You do have to be open to the possibility of a Higher Power and be willing to experiment with communicating with that Power. It is important to structure your life in such a way as to spend time alone each day to interact with your Higher Power. It is important to examine your values and look within yourself to determine whether your life is in harmony with those values.
Spiritual discipline is a consciously chosen course of action. Discipline is uncomfortable for many recovering addicts. They have lived lives of immediate gratification, and discipline is the reverse of that. The purpose of spiritual discipline is freedom from the slavery of self-indulgence. Spiritual discipline includes prayer and meditation, spiritual fellowship, and regular inventory of your spiritual growth.
Balanced Living
Balanced living means that there is bio-psycho-social-spiritual harmony in your life. It means that you are healthy physically and psychologically and that you have healthy relationships. It means that you are spiritually whole. It means that you are no longer focused on one aspect of your life. It means you are living responsibly, giving yourself time for your job, your family, your friends as well as time for your own growth and recovery. It means allowing a Higher Power to work in your life. It means wholesome living.
It means having a balance between work and play, between fulfilling your responsibilities to other people and your need for self-fulfillment. It means functioning as nearly as possible at your optimum stress level, maintaining enough stress to keep you functioning in a healthy way and not overloading yourself with stress so that it becomes counterproductive. With balanced living, immediate gratification as a lifestyle is given up in order to attain fulfilling and meaningful living.
Balanced living requires proper health care so that the body is functioning well. Nutrition, rest, and exercise all receive the proper focus in your life to provide energy, manage stress, allow freedom from illness and pain, combat fatigue, and rebuild a damaged body.
Freedom from physical distress allows psychological growth. When you feel good it is easier to think about your attitudes and values and to work on eliminating denial, guilt, and anger. Balanced living requires doing things to develop self-confidence and self-esteem and learning to feel good about yourself.
Balanced living needs a strong social network that nurtures you and encourages a healthy, recovery-oriented lifestyle. A healthy network provides a sense of belonging. It includes relationships in which you feel you are a valuable part. It includes immediate family members, friends, relatives, co-workers, counselors, employers, self-help group members, and sponsors.
Even after a couple of years of sobriety, Walter had times when he found it more difficult than usual to remember things, when he was more irritable and anxious, when he overreacted around his family and friends, when he felt confused and overwhelmed. His wife began to notice that he experienced these symptoms more on Saturday. What was different about Saturday? He usually slept later and had a couple of cups of coffee as soon as he got up, he began going over to visit his AA sponsor as early as possible. Together they drank coffee, ate donuts, smoked their pipes, and talked. Walter stayed until early afternoon, and by the time he got home and had lunch it was usually 1:30 or 2:00 in the afternoon. If one of his kids left a bike in the driveway or his wife was on the phone too long, he found himself overreacting and leaving the house. The rest of the day was totally unproductive because of what became know in his family as his “Saturday Syndrome.”
Walter decided to try some alternate activities to see if there was a change in his reactions. He started drinking orange juice as soon as he woke up instead of coffee. That helped, so he decided to try eating breakfast. That helped even more. He and his sponsor started drinking decaffeinated coffee and he skipped the donuts. He came home early enough to have lunch and to exercise for awhile. He then felt like doing something with his family in the afternoon. They were all amazed at the disappearance of the “Saturday Syndrome.”
Love ya all,,
Becky
Spirituality can be defined as "an active relationship with a power greater than yourself that gives your life meaning and purpose." When you work a spiritual program, you consciously, actively attempt to become a part of something bigger, greater, and more powerful than yourself.
Belief in a Higher Power takes you out of the center of your universe and offers peace of mind and serenity by an awareness that there is a power that is not restricted by your weaknesses and limitations. Through spiritual development you can develop new confidence in your own abilities and develop a new sense of hope. It is through a spiritual program that you can reach with hope and a positive attitude toward the future.
In working on your spirituality it is important for you to use the principles of the AA/NA program. AA/NA provides guidelines for “increasing your conscious contact with your higher power.” You do not have to have any one image of your higher power to increase your conscious contact. You do have to be open to the possibility of a Higher Power and be willing to experiment with communicating with that Power. It is important to structure your life in such a way as to spend time alone each day to interact with your Higher Power. It is important to examine your values and look within yourself to determine whether your life is in harmony with those values.
Spiritual discipline is a consciously chosen course of action. Discipline is uncomfortable for many recovering addicts. They have lived lives of immediate gratification, and discipline is the reverse of that. The purpose of spiritual discipline is freedom from the slavery of self-indulgence. Spiritual discipline includes prayer and meditation, spiritual fellowship, and regular inventory of your spiritual growth.
Balanced Living
Balanced living means that there is bio-psycho-social-spiritual harmony in your life. It means that you are healthy physically and psychologically and that you have healthy relationships. It means that you are spiritually whole. It means that you are no longer focused on one aspect of your life. It means you are living responsibly, giving yourself time for your job, your family, your friends as well as time for your own growth and recovery. It means allowing a Higher Power to work in your life. It means wholesome living.
It means having a balance between work and play, between fulfilling your responsibilities to other people and your need for self-fulfillment. It means functioning as nearly as possible at your optimum stress level, maintaining enough stress to keep you functioning in a healthy way and not overloading yourself with stress so that it becomes counterproductive. With balanced living, immediate gratification as a lifestyle is given up in order to attain fulfilling and meaningful living.
Balanced living requires proper health care so that the body is functioning well. Nutrition, rest, and exercise all receive the proper focus in your life to provide energy, manage stress, allow freedom from illness and pain, combat fatigue, and rebuild a damaged body.
Freedom from physical distress allows psychological growth. When you feel good it is easier to think about your attitudes and values and to work on eliminating denial, guilt, and anger. Balanced living requires doing things to develop self-confidence and self-esteem and learning to feel good about yourself.
Balanced living needs a strong social network that nurtures you and encourages a healthy, recovery-oriented lifestyle. A healthy network provides a sense of belonging. It includes relationships in which you feel you are a valuable part. It includes immediate family members, friends, relatives, co-workers, counselors, employers, self-help group members, and sponsors.
Even after a couple of years of sobriety, Walter had times when he found it more difficult than usual to remember things, when he was more irritable and anxious, when he overreacted around his family and friends, when he felt confused and overwhelmed. His wife began to notice that he experienced these symptoms more on Saturday. What was different about Saturday? He usually slept later and had a couple of cups of coffee as soon as he got up, he began going over to visit his AA sponsor as early as possible. Together they drank coffee, ate donuts, smoked their pipes, and talked. Walter stayed until early afternoon, and by the time he got home and had lunch it was usually 1:30 or 2:00 in the afternoon. If one of his kids left a bike in the driveway or his wife was on the phone too long, he found himself overreacting and leaving the house. The rest of the day was totally unproductive because of what became know in his family as his “Saturday Syndrome.”
Walter decided to try some alternate activities to see if there was a change in his reactions. He started drinking orange juice as soon as he woke up instead of coffee. That helped, so he decided to try eating breakfast. That helped even more. He and his sponsor started drinking decaffeinated coffee and he skipped the donuts. He came home early enough to have lunch and to exercise for awhile. He then felt like doing something with his family in the afternoon. They were all amazed at the disappearance of the “Saturday Syndrome.”
"The BAND" workshop ROCKS!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Posts: 1,502
Interesting reading. Could I ask the source for this information? I'd like to pass it on to some friends in the program but wonder how authoritative it is.
Thanks Becky.
Thanks Becky.
Livin' the NA WAY
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lewis & Clark Area
Posts: 52
http://www.recoveryavenue.com/steps/paw1.html
Post Acute Withdrawl (PAW)...part 1
Exerpted From "Staying Sober" By: Terence T. Gorski
with additions by: Lee Jamison
Terence Gorski is a guy that makes a lot of videos on alcoholism and addiction and has been around for a while. This came out of a book on Alcoholism.
He has mostly treated alcoholism, but does know a lot on addiction.
This should be taken with a grain of salt, in my humble opinion, as all drugs are different. Especially when talking about alcohol and benzo's, vs. the others out there, both of which have the same effects and cause seizures during withdrawal, which is the basis of PAWS.
Not all drugs cause PAWS, nor does it happen in all people.
I am willing to bet, if I worry enough about it, I am bound to feel like crap.
I had post acute withdrawals from benzo's and it sucked. But I survived and didn't worry about it too much since I was working the program and staying clean.
Chad H.
Post Acute Withdrawl (PAW)...part 1
Exerpted From "Staying Sober" By: Terence T. Gorski
with additions by: Lee Jamison
Terence Gorski is a guy that makes a lot of videos on alcoholism and addiction and has been around for a while. This came out of a book on Alcoholism.
He has mostly treated alcoholism, but does know a lot on addiction.
This should be taken with a grain of salt, in my humble opinion, as all drugs are different. Especially when talking about alcohol and benzo's, vs. the others out there, both of which have the same effects and cause seizures during withdrawal, which is the basis of PAWS.
Not all drugs cause PAWS, nor does it happen in all people.
I am willing to bet, if I worry enough about it, I am bound to feel like crap.
I had post acute withdrawals from benzo's and it sucked. But I survived and didn't worry about it too much since I was working the program and staying clean.
Chad H.
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Chad,
I just don't understand what your problem is, why are you following my posts around trying to argue about the things I say?? Ya know what, If you don't agree, why must you continue to post on my threads, saying I don't know what I am talking about? I am not making this stuff up!! I am getting it from other sourses, you are correct on this sourse, BUT, it was easier for me to post this info, which I feel is pretty correct, ACCORDING to ALL the OTHER info. I recieved in the treatments I have been a part of.
I have no problem with you, so leave me alone please...
I truly believe according to your PM's to me that you have MORE of a PROBLEM with the fact that I am ON SUBOXONE, that is what your PM said to me..
My recovery has nothing to do with you, and I am not chasing you around the boardsarguing with your posts. This is really the reason I do not attend NA.... It's people that are SO judgmental... Yep, I'm sure I'll get blasted from peopel for that, but, I am being HARASSED because I am ON SUBOXONE, NOT completely clean in some eyes..
But this is my RECOVERY, I owe you NO explanations Chad..
This statement that you made, directed at me,
I am willing to bet, if I worry enough about it, I am bound to feel like crap is also pretty uncalled for, you know absolutely NOTHING about me, or what my life is or has been like..
To everyone else reading this info. I did get this info. from this person.
Exerpted From "Staying Sober" By: Terence T. Gorski
with additions by: Lee Jamison
But I also have learn all of this same info in the different treatment centers I have been in..
BUT PLEASE, check with your own doctor, I am certain that they will have information for you
Take care,
God Bless,
Becky
I just don't understand what your problem is, why are you following my posts around trying to argue about the things I say?? Ya know what, If you don't agree, why must you continue to post on my threads, saying I don't know what I am talking about? I am not making this stuff up!! I am getting it from other sourses, you are correct on this sourse, BUT, it was easier for me to post this info, which I feel is pretty correct, ACCORDING to ALL the OTHER info. I recieved in the treatments I have been a part of.
I have no problem with you, so leave me alone please...
I truly believe according to your PM's to me that you have MORE of a PROBLEM with the fact that I am ON SUBOXONE, that is what your PM said to me..
My recovery has nothing to do with you, and I am not chasing you around the boardsarguing with your posts. This is really the reason I do not attend NA.... It's people that are SO judgmental... Yep, I'm sure I'll get blasted from peopel for that, but, I am being HARASSED because I am ON SUBOXONE, NOT completely clean in some eyes..
But this is my RECOVERY, I owe you NO explanations Chad..
This statement that you made, directed at me,
I am willing to bet, if I worry enough about it, I am bound to feel like crap is also pretty uncalled for, you know absolutely NOTHING about me, or what my life is or has been like..
To everyone else reading this info. I did get this info. from this person.
Exerpted From "Staying Sober" By: Terence T. Gorski
with additions by: Lee Jamison
But I also have learn all of this same info in the different treatment centers I have been in..
BUT PLEASE, check with your own doctor, I am certain that they will have information for you
Take care,
God Bless,
Becky
Livin' the NA WAY
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lewis & Clark Area
Posts: 52
Chad
I asked you a question on the thread,
I think I've made it through w/d's
with the girl named Shel.
Please if you would go to that thread and
post your reply, I would greatly appreciate it..
Thanks so much,
Becky
No reply needed. I have never heard of PAWS caused by opiate abuse.
I am not sure what you would suffer from months after opiate abuse since it affects the neurotransmitters and dopamine production. Which consequently comes back after a (relatively)short while in recovery.
As far as PAWS is concerned, it is a long term withdrawal that normally comes at the 4-6 month range and can last for a while.
I have yet to read, or meet an opiate addict that has suffered from this.
I general don't listen to councelors or Dr.'s since they usually have antiquated information. Except if it is coming from a well known physician that deals with addiction recovery.
When I was at capobythesea.com I met with Dr. Pinsky (Dr. Drew) who has a way with explaning addiciton in laymans terms which we all can understand.
If there is Post Acute withdrawal and you have any linking information on the web, that would be great.
Regards,
Chad H.
__________________
Originally Posted by theNAway
You are talking to her about POST acute withdrawals, and she is JUST getting clean?
If it was going to happen, it wouldn't be for a few months.
Scaring someone at this juncture is probably not a good idea.
Especially since you haven't even withdrawn yet off the sub you are on now.
Getting clean is all that matters and helping someone keep the faith that it IS possible, from people who have BEEN through it.
Yep you're right, lol. I bet it's because you go to NA and I dont, and I'm on suboxone and youre not.. LOL.. Whatever.
Boy though you better check your additude, maybe you need to look at doing another 4th step... lol.
A little touchy don't you think. I WASN'T referencing you OR anything you said. I was just stating a FACT, that PAWS is a syndrome that affects alcoholics and benzo-addicts.
I am sorry to see that you are a little over zealous thinking that I am jumping on you. As well that I care whether or not you are on suboxone or not. I think I already posted in another thread that whether someone is on it or not is not a big deal to me, nor do I care.
It seems you had a preconceived notion that I was referring to you being on suboxone. It had to do with you saying you had not come of it yet, to experience the withdrawals, or having PAWS yourself. How can someone speak about something when they haven't been through it theirselves, and the medical source they are speaking from refers to alcoholism?
That was the only point I was making.
For you to extrapolate that from my PM is something I can't help.
I do care when you are giving medical advice that is incorrect to someone just getting clean. When you have not gone through it yourself yet, as you had already said.
If you are going to post something that you feel is correct, it is best if that information states that it affects addicts as a whole as you are trying to say and give advice to a brand new addict in recovery as stated in the second PM.
If you have read the article, you would clearly see that Dr. Gorsky refers to alcoholics and the affects of PAWS on them. NOT every addict or addiction out there.
I was just clarifying for people to make their own assessment.
Discussions can be had. Just because you post something and feel it relates to everything doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with you. AND if someone doesn't, you shouldn't take it as a personal attack. Especially when you asked me to reply to your post.
I also asked you if you had a source for that information, and if you did, I would stand corrected. Which I don't since the source is refering to Alcoholics.
I am really sorry you feel the way you do. I don't have any bias towards you or your information. Although, just as in a meeting, if someone is giving information out that isn't correct, I will add what I have to offer. We then can discuss it as Adults and go from there.
IF there is ANY information out there that says an addicts as a whole experience PAWS as it is defined, from opiates, I will stand corrected.
Until then, my post, as is yours, is out there for informational purposes. Not to agree or disagree with yours.
You have to realize not everyone is going to agree with you or I on everything any one of us believe. And that if someone doesn't, it doesn't mean they are attacking you.
I have been respectful in my posts, as well as PM's. I am sorry you feel the way you do. But I have nothing against you or your recovery. I sincerely hope you recovery and stay clean another day.
That is what this message board is about. Helping each other stay clean.
Sincerely,
Chad H.
I asked you a question on the thread,
I think I've made it through w/d's
with the girl named Shel.
Please if you would go to that thread and
post your reply, I would greatly appreciate it..
Thanks so much,
Becky
No reply needed. I have never heard of PAWS caused by opiate abuse.
I am not sure what you would suffer from months after opiate abuse since it affects the neurotransmitters and dopamine production. Which consequently comes back after a (relatively)short while in recovery.
As far as PAWS is concerned, it is a long term withdrawal that normally comes at the 4-6 month range and can last for a while.
I have yet to read, or meet an opiate addict that has suffered from this.
I general don't listen to councelors or Dr.'s since they usually have antiquated information. Except if it is coming from a well known physician that deals with addiction recovery.
When I was at capobythesea.com I met with Dr. Pinsky (Dr. Drew) who has a way with explaning addiciton in laymans terms which we all can understand.
If there is Post Acute withdrawal and you have any linking information on the web, that would be great.
Regards,
Chad H.
__________________
Originally Posted by theNAway
You are talking to her about POST acute withdrawals, and she is JUST getting clean?
If it was going to happen, it wouldn't be for a few months.
Scaring someone at this juncture is probably not a good idea.
Especially since you haven't even withdrawn yet off the sub you are on now.
Getting clean is all that matters and helping someone keep the faith that it IS possible, from people who have BEEN through it.
Yep you're right, lol. I bet it's because you go to NA and I dont, and I'm on suboxone and youre not.. LOL.. Whatever.
Boy though you better check your additude, maybe you need to look at doing another 4th step... lol.
A little touchy don't you think. I WASN'T referencing you OR anything you said. I was just stating a FACT, that PAWS is a syndrome that affects alcoholics and benzo-addicts.
I am sorry to see that you are a little over zealous thinking that I am jumping on you. As well that I care whether or not you are on suboxone or not. I think I already posted in another thread that whether someone is on it or not is not a big deal to me, nor do I care.
It seems you had a preconceived notion that I was referring to you being on suboxone. It had to do with you saying you had not come of it yet, to experience the withdrawals, or having PAWS yourself. How can someone speak about something when they haven't been through it theirselves, and the medical source they are speaking from refers to alcoholism?
That was the only point I was making.
For you to extrapolate that from my PM is something I can't help.
I do care when you are giving medical advice that is incorrect to someone just getting clean. When you have not gone through it yourself yet, as you had already said.
If you are going to post something that you feel is correct, it is best if that information states that it affects addicts as a whole as you are trying to say and give advice to a brand new addict in recovery as stated in the second PM.
If you have read the article, you would clearly see that Dr. Gorsky refers to alcoholics and the affects of PAWS on them. NOT every addict or addiction out there.
I was just clarifying for people to make their own assessment.
Discussions can be had. Just because you post something and feel it relates to everything doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with you. AND if someone doesn't, you shouldn't take it as a personal attack. Especially when you asked me to reply to your post.
I also asked you if you had a source for that information, and if you did, I would stand corrected. Which I don't since the source is refering to Alcoholics.
I am really sorry you feel the way you do. I don't have any bias towards you or your information. Although, just as in a meeting, if someone is giving information out that isn't correct, I will add what I have to offer. We then can discuss it as Adults and go from there.
IF there is ANY information out there that says an addicts as a whole experience PAWS as it is defined, from opiates, I will stand corrected.
Until then, my post, as is yours, is out there for informational purposes. Not to agree or disagree with yours.
You have to realize not everyone is going to agree with you or I on everything any one of us believe. And that if someone doesn't, it doesn't mean they are attacking you.
I have been respectful in my posts, as well as PM's. I am sorry you feel the way you do. But I have nothing against you or your recovery. I sincerely hope you recovery and stay clean another day.
That is what this message board is about. Helping each other stay clean.
Sincerely,
Chad H.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: eden prairie, mn
Posts: 51
becky, thanx for the info. i'm sure a lot of newcomers can use it. PAWS strikes alcoholics and addicts. it all depends on what was used and how much. PAWS can occur for 30 days clean to 6 months. as i said it depends on use, and symptoms very also.
as for meeting guru's, i could get on my soapbox to, but this is not the place! i do think that people who say they work a program should practice principles before personalities. just my thoughts chad.
dean
as for meeting guru's, i could get on my soapbox to, but this is not the place! i do think that people who say they work a program should practice principles before personalities. just my thoughts chad.
dean
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Here is MY Last post to you from 9:15 this morning.. Somehow you FORGOT this PM in YOUR last POST above...
Chad,
Actually, you know I have thought more about our exchange of words here.
This is not me.. I am sorry if I said something to make you angry in my last message. We are both here for the same reason, to get and give support.
Not to argue over things that shouldn't be argued about. I chose not to do that.
It hurt me that you refernced things the way you did, that is where my snappy answer came from. I apologize for that. I just don't want to bicker about this stuff.. So I will be the one to say, sorry, let's not go there..
I know I am here for support, I don't have all the ansers, dont think anyone here does. I attend a 12 step group. Just not NA, although I have gone, and may possible go again someday? That's an option I have. I loved the meetings I attended at the treatment center I went to.. Just a long way away from me.
We dont have to be best friends here, but we both have the same common goal I believe so, I am not going to spend times sending snappy nasty messages back and forth.
You got your point across loud and clear, about how you feel about Sub, , and that's fine, I didn't ask..
But it doesn't matter, I know the attitude out there about it by some, that's ok, it's my recovery.. I will do fine.
I appreciate your point, and that is why I have said for her to ask her doctor about PAWS, PAWS is not scarey just a pain. It's not life threatening.. Nothing to fear, just sometrhing to be aware if..
But, like I said, I just do not want to take out any time to bicker with you. That's not what I;m about, and that's not what SR is aotu for me,, So, I'm sorry if you got upset by something. I'll leave it at that. But please don't pass judgments on peopkle ion suboxone, thsi is my and our recovery, yours is yours.. through NA, and that is a great program..
Nice talking to you,
Becky
THAT WAS MY LAST POST TO YOU, that YOU convienently FORGOT TO ADD IN THE POST ABOVE....
Real weird here isn't it, how you forgot my LAST PM to you in your last post, only posting what made me sound bad?? Then I seen you came on MY thread and began to make nasty statements again, you know what you said, I don't even have to repeat it here.
Actually, you know I have thought more about our exchange of words here.
This is not me.. I am sorry if I said something to make you angry in my last message. We are both here for the same reason, to get and give support.
Not to argue over things that shouldn't be argued about. I chose not to do that.
It hurt me that you refernced things the way you did, that is where my snappy answer came from. I apologize for that. I just don't want to bicker about this stuff.. So I will be the one to say, sorry, let's not go there..
I know I am here for support, I don't have all the ansers, dont think anyone here does. I attend a 12 step group. Just not NA, although I have gone, and may possible go again someday? That's an option I have. I loved the meetings I attended at the treatment center I went to.. Just a long way away from me.
We dont have to be best friends here, but we both have the same common goal I believe so, I am not going to spend times sending snappy nasty messages back and forth.
You got your point across loud and clear, about how you feel about Sub, , and that's fine, I didn't ask..
But it doesn't matter, I know the attitude out there about it by some, that's ok, it's my recovery.. I will do fine.
I appreciate your point, and that is why I have said for her to ask her doctor about PAWS, PAWS is not scarey just a pain. It's not life threatening.. Nothing to fear, just sometrhing to be aware if..
But, like I said, I just do not want to take out any time to bicker with you. That's not what I;m about, and that's not what SR is aotu for me,, So, I'm sorry if you got upset by something. I'll leave it at that. But please don't pass judgments on peopkle ion suboxone, thsi is my and our recovery, yours is yours.. through NA, and that is a great program..
Nice talking to you,
Becky
Hmm,,,
Doesn't sound quite as bad as you made me sound now does that??
You just CONVIENENTLY forgot to add that in your post above,,??
What is your true PURPOSE here Chad? Why do you seem to want to bother me??
I am not going to respond anymore to your post. Just leave me alone,,
I am TRYING to help people, as I have been helped here.
I am not even goping to argue any of the stuff you put in your post, except to say
that YOU LEFT OUT THE LAST MESSAGE I SENT, but hey, it's alright, I still had that one.. LOL..
I did get angry in one of my PM's to you, because you were attacking me for no reason.. BUT, I DID APOLOGIZE..
Look, I am here to support people and be supported, not to take out time to BICKER with people.. So please just leave me alone.
I have been on these boards for a long time, NEVER had a problem until now,, Hmm..
The information I put up is NOT for alcoholics alone, it's also for addicts.. yes, even
Opiate addicts. I HAVE experienced PAWS, I have been clean before.. So I dont know why you keep saying I don't know what I am talking about, because I haven't even gotten there yet?????
I also said for anyone reading the information, to PLEASE ask their own doctor, counselor, addicion doctor, psych, to clarify and of this info.. So you see, there was
NO reason for you TO even come on here and argue about it in the first place..
Now, will you PLEASE leave me alone..
Becky
Chad,
Actually, you know I have thought more about our exchange of words here.
This is not me.. I am sorry if I said something to make you angry in my last message. We are both here for the same reason, to get and give support.
Not to argue over things that shouldn't be argued about. I chose not to do that.
It hurt me that you refernced things the way you did, that is where my snappy answer came from. I apologize for that. I just don't want to bicker about this stuff.. So I will be the one to say, sorry, let's not go there..
I know I am here for support, I don't have all the ansers, dont think anyone here does. I attend a 12 step group. Just not NA, although I have gone, and may possible go again someday? That's an option I have. I loved the meetings I attended at the treatment center I went to.. Just a long way away from me.
We dont have to be best friends here, but we both have the same common goal I believe so, I am not going to spend times sending snappy nasty messages back and forth.
You got your point across loud and clear, about how you feel about Sub, , and that's fine, I didn't ask..
But it doesn't matter, I know the attitude out there about it by some, that's ok, it's my recovery.. I will do fine.
I appreciate your point, and that is why I have said for her to ask her doctor about PAWS, PAWS is not scarey just a pain. It's not life threatening.. Nothing to fear, just sometrhing to be aware if..
But, like I said, I just do not want to take out any time to bicker with you. That's not what I;m about, and that's not what SR is aotu for me,, So, I'm sorry if you got upset by something. I'll leave it at that. But please don't pass judgments on peopkle ion suboxone, thsi is my and our recovery, yours is yours.. through NA, and that is a great program..
Nice talking to you,
Becky
THAT WAS MY LAST POST TO YOU, that YOU convienently FORGOT TO ADD IN THE POST ABOVE....
Real weird here isn't it, how you forgot my LAST PM to you in your last post, only posting what made me sound bad?? Then I seen you came on MY thread and began to make nasty statements again, you know what you said, I don't even have to repeat it here.
Actually, you know I have thought more about our exchange of words here.
This is not me.. I am sorry if I said something to make you angry in my last message. We are both here for the same reason, to get and give support.
Not to argue over things that shouldn't be argued about. I chose not to do that.
It hurt me that you refernced things the way you did, that is where my snappy answer came from. I apologize for that. I just don't want to bicker about this stuff.. So I will be the one to say, sorry, let's not go there..
I know I am here for support, I don't have all the ansers, dont think anyone here does. I attend a 12 step group. Just not NA, although I have gone, and may possible go again someday? That's an option I have. I loved the meetings I attended at the treatment center I went to.. Just a long way away from me.
We dont have to be best friends here, but we both have the same common goal I believe so, I am not going to spend times sending snappy nasty messages back and forth.
You got your point across loud and clear, about how you feel about Sub, , and that's fine, I didn't ask..
But it doesn't matter, I know the attitude out there about it by some, that's ok, it's my recovery.. I will do fine.
I appreciate your point, and that is why I have said for her to ask her doctor about PAWS, PAWS is not scarey just a pain. It's not life threatening.. Nothing to fear, just sometrhing to be aware if..
But, like I said, I just do not want to take out any time to bicker with you. That's not what I;m about, and that's not what SR is aotu for me,, So, I'm sorry if you got upset by something. I'll leave it at that. But please don't pass judgments on peopkle ion suboxone, thsi is my and our recovery, yours is yours.. through NA, and that is a great program..
Nice talking to you,
Becky
Hmm,,,
Doesn't sound quite as bad as you made me sound now does that??
You just CONVIENENTLY forgot to add that in your post above,,??
What is your true PURPOSE here Chad? Why do you seem to want to bother me??
I am not going to respond anymore to your post. Just leave me alone,,
I am TRYING to help people, as I have been helped here.
I am not even goping to argue any of the stuff you put in your post, except to say
that YOU LEFT OUT THE LAST MESSAGE I SENT, but hey, it's alright, I still had that one.. LOL..
I did get angry in one of my PM's to you, because you were attacking me for no reason.. BUT, I DID APOLOGIZE..
Look, I am here to support people and be supported, not to take out time to BICKER with people.. So please just leave me alone.
I have been on these boards for a long time, NEVER had a problem until now,, Hmm..
The information I put up is NOT for alcoholics alone, it's also for addicts.. yes, even
Opiate addicts. I HAVE experienced PAWS, I have been clean before.. So I dont know why you keep saying I don't know what I am talking about, because I haven't even gotten there yet?????
I also said for anyone reading the information, to PLEASE ask their own doctor, counselor, addicion doctor, psych, to clarify and of this info.. So you see, there was
NO reason for you TO even come on here and argue about it in the first place..
Now, will you PLEASE leave me alone..
Becky
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Hi, to all of you out there,,
I am really sorry this has gotten out of hand. this is not how I am at all..
I only posted information that is very important to addicts and alcoholics, I'm sure some of you have seen it already.
Please forgive the above posts.
PLEASE just focus on the info. about PAWS that I have on this thread,,
and PLEASE ask your doctor of any addictional information he/she might have
for you. Paws is nothing to fear,, but its good information for you to have, so that if you begin to experience symptoms, you will not feel like you are going crazy, lol..
So take from it what you like, or copy and paste it, and print it and take it to your doctor, maybe they will, and maybe they will not have more info. on it for you..
Anyway,,
Sr has been a god send to me. I love it here and I have been here for a long time, giving and mostly recieveing support.. You will love it here as well, if you are new.. Don't let a post like this influence you.. Its a great site, full of wonderful people..
Hang in there all
and God Bless.
Love,
Becky
I am really sorry this has gotten out of hand. this is not how I am at all..
I only posted information that is very important to addicts and alcoholics, I'm sure some of you have seen it already.
Please forgive the above posts.
PLEASE just focus on the info. about PAWS that I have on this thread,,
and PLEASE ask your doctor of any addictional information he/she might have
for you. Paws is nothing to fear,, but its good information for you to have, so that if you begin to experience symptoms, you will not feel like you are going crazy, lol..
So take from it what you like, or copy and paste it, and print it and take it to your doctor, maybe they will, and maybe they will not have more info. on it for you..
Anyway,,
Sr has been a god send to me. I love it here and I have been here for a long time, giving and mostly recieveing support.. You will love it here as well, if you are new.. Don't let a post like this influence you.. Its a great site, full of wonderful people..
Hang in there all
and God Bless.
Love,
Becky
Livin' the NA WAY
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lewis & Clark Area
Posts: 52
I didn't post that to show how up and down your swinging is. After you PMed me that, you posted the PAWS information, then you posted another nasty message here on this thread AFTER you tried to apoligize.
Either you apoligized or you didn't.
Nobody is following you around or trying to discredit you.
You asked me to post, and I did.
Then you didn't agree with my post and got bitter in PM's, then changed your mind and apoligized, then you changed back and posted another bitter message.
I have been respectful in my posts, as well as in my PM's. So I feel fine knowing I don't have to apoligize for any behavior or make any amends.
Sorry you don't see it. But it is what it is.
The only thing I am sorry about is that you got so worked up about me not agreeing with the information you provided to someone just getting clean 5 days ago, warning them about PAWS.
Which I then said that if there is ANY information out there that states it affects addicts other than alcoholics or benzo's, I will stand corrected.
I just don't think that information should be passed off as truth if it is not substanciated. Especially when it is not corroborated by medical studies.
Then I suggested that it might be best just to support them and help them through it, and not scare them with something that may or may not come.
I hope we can agree to disagree.
I have no ill will towards you at all, never have. I think that comes through in my posts, as well as PM's. I just disagreed with the information provided.
I hope you continue to seek comfort here, as well as any other program that helps keep you clean. And help addicts here as I have seen since I have been here the last few weeks with your kind words.
Sincerely,
Chad H.
Either you apoligized or you didn't.
Nobody is following you around or trying to discredit you.
You asked me to post, and I did.
Then you didn't agree with my post and got bitter in PM's, then changed your mind and apoligized, then you changed back and posted another bitter message.
I have been respectful in my posts, as well as in my PM's. So I feel fine knowing I don't have to apoligize for any behavior or make any amends.
Sorry you don't see it. But it is what it is.
The only thing I am sorry about is that you got so worked up about me not agreeing with the information you provided to someone just getting clean 5 days ago, warning them about PAWS.
Which I then said that if there is ANY information out there that states it affects addicts other than alcoholics or benzo's, I will stand corrected.
I just don't think that information should be passed off as truth if it is not substanciated. Especially when it is not corroborated by medical studies.
Then I suggested that it might be best just to support them and help them through it, and not scare them with something that may or may not come.
I hope we can agree to disagree.
I have no ill will towards you at all, never have. I think that comes through in my posts, as well as PM's. I just disagreed with the information provided.
I hope you continue to seek comfort here, as well as any other program that helps keep you clean. And help addicts here as I have seen since I have been here the last few weeks with your kind words.
Sincerely,
Chad H.
Late stage optimist
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Auburn, WA
Posts: 306
Wow. I read all these exchanges. Now my thoughts.
I think simply reproducing a bunch of textual information is probably too much information for most people accessing these forums. Most folks are in recovery and are here looking for support in a simple and quick form.
Becky, if you got your information on PAWS from a web page, maybe you could provide the link and say that you found the information helpful. That would give the reader the direction they need to explore the information on their own. Many will feel overwhelmed by the volume of text in what you have provided, despite your good intentions.
Chad, I agree with you at least in part. I come from a different perspective than you do and I can tell you have strong opinions on this subject. It seems like Becky has felt like she is being stalked. I can't say I see that going on, just that she is experiencing some opposing views on what she has said. That is not stalking or harassment. Everyone has a right to post their opinions.
Part of what you (Chad) say needs reinforcing. Not everyone will experience PAWS, nor will everyone experience it in the same way. However, there is a large constellation of symptoms that fall within this description and many things that people experience after stopping the use of ANY drug can be considered PAWS. Or not, if you don't like that term. Having said that, the best thing for people trying to stay sober to know is that they may not feel normal after they stop using drugs, and sometimes they will discover that those abnormal feelings will go away with time and proper management by a good recovery program and sometimes they do not go away and more help is needed. Often when a person obtains the proper help, they discover an underlying mental health disorder that they may have been self medicating with the opiates or other drugs. Once that is treated and therapy works some things into the person's recovery program, things settle down and life becomes more "normal".
I think simply reproducing a bunch of textual information is probably too much information for most people accessing these forums. Most folks are in recovery and are here looking for support in a simple and quick form.
Becky, if you got your information on PAWS from a web page, maybe you could provide the link and say that you found the information helpful. That would give the reader the direction they need to explore the information on their own. Many will feel overwhelmed by the volume of text in what you have provided, despite your good intentions.
Chad, I agree with you at least in part. I come from a different perspective than you do and I can tell you have strong opinions on this subject. It seems like Becky has felt like she is being stalked. I can't say I see that going on, just that she is experiencing some opposing views on what she has said. That is not stalking or harassment. Everyone has a right to post their opinions.
Part of what you (Chad) say needs reinforcing. Not everyone will experience PAWS, nor will everyone experience it in the same way. However, there is a large constellation of symptoms that fall within this description and many things that people experience after stopping the use of ANY drug can be considered PAWS. Or not, if you don't like that term. Having said that, the best thing for people trying to stay sober to know is that they may not feel normal after they stop using drugs, and sometimes they will discover that those abnormal feelings will go away with time and proper management by a good recovery program and sometimes they do not go away and more help is needed. Often when a person obtains the proper help, they discover an underlying mental health disorder that they may have been self medicating with the opiates or other drugs. Once that is treated and therapy works some things into the person's recovery program, things settle down and life becomes more "normal".
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Chad,
I did not ask you to apologize, only to leave me alone.
I do NOT apologize for giving info. out to anyone on PAWS..
I have repeatedly told you that, I HAVE EXPERIENCED PAWS,
and I alos learned from more than one treatment center about
PAWS, for the same reason I am passing it on here, so at that
time, I would understand what I would be going through.
I really don't know where you get your info. from, but you know what,
Honestly I don' care either.. I passed it on, they can ask their doctors as I said NUMEROUS times. So where lies the problem? NOt with me..
The only thing you have done here is use info that I sent you, and twisted it the way you wanted to see it, and then followed my posts, putting your opinions in..
I first thought I didn't understand you, but I do, I understand it is about
my way to Recovery, vs, yours, and your better than thou thinking.. It's ok, I have run into that attitude before.
This does hurt me, I have been around here for a long time, HELPING peopel and being helped, I have never had anyone do what you are doing here.. No one has ever complained about me before, until you....
You have been here since when???
I haven't had any problems with anyone before.
I am hurt, and afraid new people will come in and instead of getting the great info,
that is here on PAWS, they will instead read this.. So please for the last time, leave me alone..
You can disagree with what you like,, I can still give out the info on PAWS, so that people are helped..
Believe me, I am not the first person who has listed thsi info here, and I am NOT the first OPIATE addict that has ever said they experienced PAWS,,, I do understand why they would not come here to this thread that you have completely hijacked , and not post here, due to the bickering, they don't want to get involved, neither do I..
SO PLEASE leave this thread alone now..
I did NOTHING wrong..
Becky
I did not ask you to apologize, only to leave me alone.
I do NOT apologize for giving info. out to anyone on PAWS..
I have repeatedly told you that, I HAVE EXPERIENCED PAWS,
and I alos learned from more than one treatment center about
PAWS, for the same reason I am passing it on here, so at that
time, I would understand what I would be going through.
I really don't know where you get your info. from, but you know what,
Honestly I don' care either.. I passed it on, they can ask their doctors as I said NUMEROUS times. So where lies the problem? NOt with me..
The only thing you have done here is use info that I sent you, and twisted it the way you wanted to see it, and then followed my posts, putting your opinions in..
I first thought I didn't understand you, but I do, I understand it is about
my way to Recovery, vs, yours, and your better than thou thinking.. It's ok, I have run into that attitude before.
This does hurt me, I have been around here for a long time, HELPING peopel and being helped, I have never had anyone do what you are doing here.. No one has ever complained about me before, until you....
You have been here since when???
I haven't had any problems with anyone before.
I am hurt, and afraid new people will come in and instead of getting the great info,
that is here on PAWS, they will instead read this.. So please for the last time, leave me alone..
You can disagree with what you like,, I can still give out the info on PAWS, so that people are helped..
Believe me, I am not the first person who has listed thsi info here, and I am NOT the first OPIATE addict that has ever said they experienced PAWS,,, I do understand why they would not come here to this thread that you have completely hijacked , and not post here, due to the bickering, they don't want to get involved, neither do I..
SO PLEASE leave this thread alone now..
I did NOTHING wrong..
Becky
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Fuster,
Wow ,
I just don't understand what is going on here..
There were things that you did not see.
There are things that have been twisted here..
I was ASKED to produce info on PAWS..
I posted the info. then I got Blasted for doing so????
I just don't even want to discuss this anymore..
I wanted to put the info ou on PAWS, as well as I was asked, so it's here.
I am not going to continue on with this silly argument,, I had no ill intentions what so ever. I NEVER said people can not disagree, it's how the words were twisted, and
that's all fine, I can accept that. NOW I think this should stop,, it's an informaional thread.. WELL, AT LEAST IT BEGAN THAT WAYY..
AS FOR CHAD, I EVEN APOLOGIZED, for getting a bit upset about a few of the statements that I made, when I was really upset about some things I viewed in a PM as being attacked.. You are not seeing the whole picture, and this has all gotten so blown up. It needs to end here...
The info is here for anyone wanting to read it, and A FEW DO WANT TO READ IT..
So,, can we please leave it as info placed for people who want to read it.. I have been attacked all day over this,, no not by everyone, only from one person..
If it's to much for anyone then they do not have to read it, right??
Thanks, now I am all done with this silly talk.. The info is here,.. Take it, or leave it.. There really is nothing to agree or disagree on, it's informational..
Yes, this has been extremely upsetting to me.. It's not the disagreeing, it's what has happened to this thread.. If you READ the TITLE, it says, PAWS-- INFORMATION,,,
I do hope you will see that before this started again ( ON THIS THREAD ANYWAY) I did have good feedback, from people that DID WANT TO READ IT, and did find the INFORMATION WORTH their TIME,, But hey, if it's not worth yours, then why are you here?? There are alot of other threads to post on.
I have TRIED very hard to be nice here,, would have been nice to have had the same consideration..
Where are my friends??
BECKY
Wow ,
I just don't understand what is going on here..
There were things that you did not see.
There are things that have been twisted here..
I was ASKED to produce info on PAWS..
I posted the info. then I got Blasted for doing so????
I just don't even want to discuss this anymore..
I wanted to put the info ou on PAWS, as well as I was asked, so it's here.
I am not going to continue on with this silly argument,, I had no ill intentions what so ever. I NEVER said people can not disagree, it's how the words were twisted, and
that's all fine, I can accept that. NOW I think this should stop,, it's an informaional thread.. WELL, AT LEAST IT BEGAN THAT WAYY..
AS FOR CHAD, I EVEN APOLOGIZED, for getting a bit upset about a few of the statements that I made, when I was really upset about some things I viewed in a PM as being attacked.. You are not seeing the whole picture, and this has all gotten so blown up. It needs to end here...
The info is here for anyone wanting to read it, and A FEW DO WANT TO READ IT..
So,, can we please leave it as info placed for people who want to read it.. I have been attacked all day over this,, no not by everyone, only from one person..
If it's to much for anyone then they do not have to read it, right??
Thanks, now I am all done with this silly talk.. The info is here,.. Take it, or leave it.. There really is nothing to agree or disagree on, it's informational..
Yes, this has been extremely upsetting to me.. It's not the disagreeing, it's what has happened to this thread.. If you READ the TITLE, it says, PAWS-- INFORMATION,,,
I do hope you will see that before this started again ( ON THIS THREAD ANYWAY) I did have good feedback, from people that DID WANT TO READ IT, and did find the INFORMATION WORTH their TIME,, But hey, if it's not worth yours, then why are you here?? There are alot of other threads to post on.
I have TRIED very hard to be nice here,, would have been nice to have had the same consideration..
Where are my friends??
BECKY
X IV
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 6,365
I have suffered from PAWS. Still do and I am an opiate addict. I am also a liscensed chemical dependency counselor in the state of CA and a liscensed clinical social worker. Thanks for sharing the info on PAWS Becky.
I know for me being open to the possibility that I could be wrong or that there could be information out there that I have not heard or thought of has been freeing. Thank you God that I don't have to know everything today. Knowing everything is to much work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for me )
Thanks for sharing the info on PAWS Becky. I know for me being open to the possibility that I could be wrong or that there could be information out there that I have not heard or thought of has been freeing. Thank you God that I don't have to know everything today. Knowing everything is to much work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for me
)
You're never alone!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,191
Yes,
I was very wrong for letting my emotions get in the way here..
I apologize to anyone who has read this.. I just offered up the info..
So, here it is if you are interested in it still.. Please talk to your doctor about it..
I regret that this got out of hand, I will have to look at myself some more
for my part in it..
Again, sorry to anyone who read through the bickering parts, should not have happened.. I hope it can be left at this..
Becky
I was very wrong for letting my emotions get in the way here..
I apologize to anyone who has read this.. I just offered up the info..
So, here it is if you are interested in it still.. Please talk to your doctor about it..
I regret that this got out of hand, I will have to look at myself some more
for my part in it..
Again, sorry to anyone who read through the bickering parts, should not have happened.. I hope it can be left at this..
Becky
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
