angelgirl

I don't attend NA regularly anymore, BUT, I do VERY often refer people to it, especially here. I truly believe that people need a recovery program,, that is so important, I guess it just depends on the person in the end which recovery program they are comfortable with..
I guess I shouldn't say one HAS to have a program, since I know there are peopel here who have remained clean and sober without one.
I just think it is very hard. I need alot of help, so I use a ton of resourses available to people..

I attend Celebrate recovery, many peopel in this program are also regular members of NA/AA or both..
Everyone is different, but I do suggest a recovery program for sure, it never hurts to try, right?? Giving it a real good shot is a good idea, since we gave our addictions such a good shot,,,,

Love, Becky

geofite

there is a post acute withdrawal from opiates and it can last a very long time. i have the degenerative post acute withdrawal from opiates and i also have protracted withdrawal from benzodiazepines. this combination is so horrible and living is very difficult. when i am exposed to any stress, my symptoms escalate very rapidly and take a long time to settle down, and, they never go away. i am 2 years off all drugs and substances. i can't even take a vitamin because they even aggravate my nervous system.

protracted withdrawal from benzos.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashpws.htm

post acute withdrawal from opiates.
". A post-acute withdrawal syndrome (p.a.w.s.) also occurs in most opiate addicts. This protracted withdrawal can last months and includes the following symptoms: insomnia, irritability, fatigue, drug craving, sweating, and dysphoria."
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11774.html

theNAway

That is where I learned about PAWS from originally - benzo.uk, and then found out about the information in Gorski's book.
I came off of 12-16mg of abuse of Zanax (benzodiazepine) a day. I was Rxed 5 - 2mg Zanax(alprazolam) a day from the 2nd visit to the psychiatrist, after a 10min discussion and signature of a drug policy. This was the treat the anxiety I had, from the high usage of opiates I was already Rxed, and abusing.
The highest withrawal schedule that I know is, is off of 6mg and is from "The Ashton Manual" from www.benzo.org.uk
The withdrawal was something I can't even describe, except I wish I would have died when I went through it. I NEVER want to go through that again. I can't even compare it to any other withdrawal or symtom I have had before. My wife watched me go through some nasty stuff in ICU for a week, and was there for me when I was going through it. Thank God for her, and her undeniable faith that I would get clean and back to my old self.
I made it though, and that is all that matters.
It is a stark reminder of why not to abuse drugs again.
I know of a lady that was on benzo's for 25+ yrs. and has been in protracted withdrawals for 10 years, and still can not function in society today. They are still learning about the full effects of benzo withdrawal.

Geofite - have you been taking vitamins everyday and treat and eat relatively healthy? This speeds up recovery time, along with withdrawal system by giving it what it needs to help heal the damage. Especially the minerals needed for the damaged cells to regenerate.
Also
A GABA replacement is available at health food stores - ie. GNC - I started taking it after I withdrew, knowing that the withdrawal was goig to be insane. So I got educated in the chemical reorganization that goes on, and see if there was anything to do to help.
The multivitamin-zinc/magnesium-B6-and GABA have helped me as far as I can tell. I am not going to bother not taking them, getting back on the benzo's and let you know how it is. But I know chemically it makes sense.
You might want to see a Dr. if possible and see what else might be going on.
There could be other things contributing to the things you have going on.
Chad H.

shestruggles

Boy, Ithought nothing would be tougher than detoxig from opiates, but Iam now facing a benzo detox at the same time.

My suboxone doctor seems to have no understanding of benzo w/d, and simply tells me to stop. I have spent the last 6 months tapering from my prescribed dose of 4 mg per day (10 years). I am down to 1 mg per day, my doc keeps telling me I should have jumped off 5 months ago.

It's frustrating ~ he simply says xanax is the devils drug~as he writes out excessive scripts for suboxone and seroquel. If i talk about wd symptoms for the xanax (i've tried several times to jump off - yuck), he simply ups my suboxone. This make no sonse to me. I have been tapering off the sub against his advice, and plan on continuing my xanax taper, next to .5 perday, .25, then off. I told him about the Ashton manual and he said it was garbage.

His inital taper for me was to drop from 4mg to 0 over 2 weeks. I couldn't do it, and found out, it could in fact dangerous. He's totally oblivious. I don't want to start thinking like I'm my own best doctor (hence my opiate addiction that led me to him inthe first place), but I'm just gonna keep tapering off both, slowly and surely. I hope I'm doing the right thing. The goal is no sub, no xanax, not a crash and burn then go back. (the way it I've worked it the last 10 years)

Um, not that anybody asked...sorry to hijack the thread, I just reacted to Chads description of benzo wd.

It's hard b/c I can't talk about this stuff at NA, as my suboxone is met with great dissaproval. I talk to my therapist and my regular GP about it, and asked her to cut my xanax scripts in half each month, also let her know about the sub. But other than that, it's no something I can talk about...

Sorry to babble -open for any feedback...

SS

angelgirl

Hey SS,

I'm trying this again,, I just lost my last message to you..

You did not hijack this thread... This thread has become about many different things and for that I really am grateful. I wanted the PAWS info. out, but since then it has becaome about many things, that's great

You are doing the right thing. You do need to keep tapering.. Your doctor has some real messed up thinkin,, One can't jump off a benzo after having been on it for 10 years, or even anything close to that..

Doctors are so fast to put people on benzo's, and get them dependant, but not so helpful when people need help getting off..
But the mentality that PULLING you off benzo's that fast yet upping the other meds is crazy.. Don't know what he is thinking.. I certainly would, and could not jump off them that fast.. You are willing to get off the pills, he should be helping you do it right,, but if he's not, can you contnue to look for a doctor that will bring you down at a rate that will not make you so sick.. At least that is how I feel. You need to do what is best for you, since I know personally that you DO really want off this crap..

Hang in there hun...
Love ya,
Becky

maricamp

I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this or has an opinion: when my husband realized (after a nasty experience with oxycontin) that he was addicted to the pain killers we went together to the dr who had been so generous with scripts and told him that mh wanted off the hydrocodone. well the good dr said ok fine taper down here's a script for another 90. so we spent the next 7 months tapering down...we did that 3 times...basically keeping him in a constant state of withdrawal. Now I'm wondering if that approach contributed to the really long and bad case of PAWS mh has lived with for the last 15 mos.

I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge dr have about the drugs they hand out.
mh's dr was really no help at all. and a couple weeks ago when mh went back to him and said look I'm still in pain from my back and feel like I'm going nuts and I don't know what's wrong with me the dr says ok...heres a new script for hydro and 60 valiums too. mh downed both scripts in a matter of 5-6 days. ( I called the dr and ask what the h*** was he thinking?! didn't he remember the 7 mos it took mh to get off hydro?! He said he was sorry. well that made it all better.)

sorry to rant and rave....I think it's pretty sad when someone is going to a psychiatrist and a gp and the best most helpfull info comes from a forum of regular people who probably also had to learn the hard way.....I'd rather have given you all the money we've spent trying to get help......mari

geofite

sorry to hear that you are a victim of benzos too. they make opiate withdrawal a walk in the park.

there are no other things contributing to what is going on with me. supplements are to be avoided especially the b vitamins as they are excitatory to the nervous system and increase the symptoms of agitation. i am a member of the benzo forum at http://www.benzo.org.uk and i know what is going on and how to recover. the worst thing to do is to go to doctors as they have no clue about what to do for protracted withdrawal and attempt to drug the person more with more neurotoxic drugs such as antidepressants or anti-psychotics. anyone who is suffering from benzos should join the benzo forum from the link at http://www.benzo.org.uk . there they can find answers, help and excellent support.

here is a post from the benzo forum by the owner of the site (ray nimmo) regarding supplements and also this post includes an e mail from professor ashton.

We have debated this and other nutritional products on a number of occasions. I personally don't see how such products can aid people's recovery in benzo withdrawal. The problems that occur are because of disruption to the nervous system and are not down to some nutritional deficiency.

I have always been very sceptical about many of the claims made for the use of certain products and food supplements that have been promoted as aids to recovery and in some cases "cures". People in withdrawal are very vulnerable and may easily be exploited. Some people claim these things are of help; others may even get a temporary placebo effect but, by and large, I think they're useless. Certainly, they will have a deleterious effect on your pocket book or wallet.

The following is from an email by Prof Ashton:

"Nutritional supplements in BZ withdrawal. There is no evidence that nutritional supplements such as vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc. are helpful in benzodiazepine withdrawal. Excessive doses of some can even be toxic. Nor is there any evidence that suggests benzodiazepine withdrawal causes vitamin, mineral or other deficiencies. No-one should take supplements without clear evidence of a specific deficiency.

In particular, taking GABA precursors does not increase GABA concentrations in the brain. Benzodiazepines do not decrease GABA concentrations; instead they alter GABA-receptor affinity. This slowly reverses without the need for supplements and there is no evidence that supplements speed the process."

People taking or withdrawing from BZ should eat a normal healthy diet - which, after all, consists of "natural" substances and contains all the ingredients necessary for the body."

When told that advertising material for a product called "beCALM'd" was being sent out with copies of the Ashton Manual she wrote:

"I am appalled to be associated with BeCalmed (whatever that is) or any other health products. I certainly have never endorsed them and I think the advert is scandalously misleading. I don't know who authorised it - not me."

About the "study" for Neurecover-BZ Ashton wrote:

"I have to say that his (Dr. Neher's) study did not seem scientifically sound, based as it was on telephone enquiries and giving no specific description of the symptoms supposed to have been improved in a relatively small number of subjects withdrawing from different doses of benzodiazepines. Also there was no statistical analysis showing a significant difference between the study drugs and placebo. As I stated before, the rationale for the formula is not convincing in pharmacological terms. It is to be hoped that someone will do a proper controlled study and publish it in the medical literature."

And this about other amino acid/vitamin supplements:

For those either on benzos or withdrawing from them ingestion of GABA in any form is a waste of time and money. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that GABA is missing from your brain and body. Depletion or deficiency of GABA (and also of vitamins, minerals and other amino acids) caused by benzo use and withdrawal is an erroneous and unscientific proposition promoted by quacksalvers and peddlers of snake oil cures and remedies. Their sole interest is in separating you from your money. Ingesting GABA will no more help you to recover from benzo withdrawal any more than eating fish will help you to swim.

Withdrawal symptoms from benzodiazepines (and this includes tolerance withdrawal symptoms while still on the drug) are caused by disruption to and hyperexcitability of the brain and nervous system. Because the nervous system is in a state of shock, recovery from this slow-to-reverse functional damage may take many many months, and in some cases years. Although perfectly understandable, succumbing to the temptation to medicate the wide range of distressing, perplexing and often bizarre symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal with prescription or over-the-counter medications, potions and Supplements, may actually impede or delay that recovery; it may even precipitate new problems.

The following quotations explain further and are drawn from Professor Heather Ashton's statements:

"In benzodiazepine withdrawal almost all the excitatory mechanisms in the nervous system go into overdrive and, until new adaptations to the drug-free state develop, the brain and peripheral nervous system are in a hyperexcitable state, and extremely vulnerable to stress."

"Compensatory changes occur in the GABA and benzodiazepine receptors which become less responsive, so that the inhibitory actions of GABA are decreased. Withdrawal symptoms occur if the benzodiazepine is reduced or stopped because the GABA receptors remain down-regulated (relatively unresponsive to GABA) for a long time."

"There is no evidence that nutritional Supplements such as vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc. are helpful in benzodiazepine withdrawal. Excessive doses of some can even be toxic. Nor is there any evidence that suggests benzodiazepine withdrawal causes vitamin, mineral or other deficiencies. No-one should take Supplements without clear evidence of a specific deficiency. In particular, taking GABA precursors does not increase GABA concentrations in the brain. Benzodiazepines do not decrease GABA concentrations; instead they alter GABA-receptor affinity. This slowly reverses without the need for Supplements and there is no evidence that Supplements speed the process."

maricamp

there isn't any ailment on the face of the earth that you won't find "experts" saying take this or that supplement and "experts" on the other side saying it's a waste of time and money....mari

geofite

professor ashton is the expert when it comes to benzodiazepines. she sells nothing and makes no money off the ashton manual. she has donated this document to help us victims so your comment is thoughtless and not appreciated.

the ashton manual
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

maricamp

also...I think most addicts have neglected their health to some degree so even if their d.o.c. didn't directly deplete them of vit and min...perhaps their life style did. everyone has to make up their own mind about the value of supplements.
personally I believe anyone who has used/abuse anything has probably put that above good nutrition. In mh's case even since quitting drugs and alcohol his appetite and sleep patterns are so off I don't for a second believe he's getting enough vit and min from food. neither of the two doctors he goes to have once mentioned or asked about his diet...just here's another script..try this. (anti depressants...neurontin...depakote....) maybe i'm a little cynical about the ama since it was a doctor who wrote endless scripts even while mh was trying to taper off. "here's another 90 hydros when that's gone there's more....". mari

maricamp

my post wan't intended to offend....just reflect many years of interest in the pros and cons of supplements. I'm not a fanatic about it...just believe there are two sides to it. however you'll see from my last post that I am having a bit of a problem having much faith in the med doctors right now. take my posts for what they are....my opinion...thanks marilyn

shestruggles

I agree marilyn, and post wasn't offensive!

I mean, as addicts, I honestly believe that most of us have neglected the basics of a healthy body regardless of our DOC. Of course using makes it worse, but when is the last time and addict was worried of they're following the food pyramind? getting enough fruits and veggies, dairy, etc....I think most of us would benefit from a healthy diet before going for 'magic supplements'.

Again, I am not referring to any particular supplement or program, I just agree, that in addition to the damage our DOC does to our bodies, many of us have neglected our BASIC health...

Good point, marilyn!

angelgirl

Oh SS,

I definately agree, I think some people just OVER do the vitamins and supplements..

That's how i feel.. We are better off wgetting our vitamins and minerals for sure from

a healthy diet, although I do believe a good daily vitamin will not hurt, it will help,,

due to all of the toxins in the food, and air, etc..

Yes, we definately have neglected ur bodies.. Not just by using.. Most addicts and

alcoholics teeth are in terrible shape due to lack of nutrition,,,

Just my 2 cents..

We don't have to get nasty, please.. We can all have an opinion with out talking nasty..

We ARE in this together, that is what SR is about..

LOVE YOU ALL< REALLY, I DO!!

Becky

geofite

here is a good supplemental pill for you.

http://www.panexa.com/

Dan

Is that joke strictly for benzo victims?
Or can a multi purpose, generic alcaddict like myself join in the merryment?

geofite

if you have the condition know as two separate feet (2sf) then you may join in the merriment of taking double panexa pills to supplement your life. but, if you are thinking of becoming pregnant or having puppies then you should immediately proceed to put all your panexa pills in a bowl of milk and feed it to any small child.

maricamp

that's so funny! great start to the day....and so true the drug companies ads sound exactly like that. so funny...thanks for sharing. mari

Lbad

Ha Ha lol! Very funny. Thanks for sharing that geofite, it gave me a good laugh this morning too.

fuster

Wow. Just getting back to this thread after posting when it started. Looks like someone got real bent out of shape on page one. Kind of funny, because the thread is about PAWS, and that is one of the sypmtoms.

shestruggles

Don't think anyone got bent out of shape - just a difference of opinions....