miamifella

I know that there is always the chance of wrecking someones recovery by tempting them to use with you, but is the chance of that so strong ? I do not understand why it is considered bad recovery to ask for this kind of help. I know the relapse is already in process long before the urge hits, but I think it can still be stopped at that late time.

Is this just a 12-step thing or do the other recovery methods also frown on this?

I ask because I did this with non-addict friends. They would have dinner or sit with me till the urge passed. It was the only thing that helped me. And I wish I had it now.

Dee74

we do it all the time here miamafella - and we'll be happy to sit with you too

D

Marcus

Not sure what 12-step group you attend, but the first suggestion when you have a craving is to call a sponsor, a sober person in recovery, or get to a meeting. That is why most meetings give out phone lists too. The phone saved my butt many a time in early recovery. Hang in there bud!

PurpleKnight

SR is a great place for sitting with people!! Happens all the time!!

NoelleR

"What is the harm of asking someone to sit with you till the craving passes?"

Uh oh, sounds like you're back in some of those crazy non-AA groups you were associating with a while back........the ones that call themselves AA but really aren't (with lots of rules 'n such).

I don't know anybody in AA, or any other recovery method for that matter, who would call sitting with someone 'bad recovery.' It is definitely NOT an AA thing. In fact, most of my AA recovered friends would consider sitting with someone till their craving passed 'good recovery.'

(o:
NoelleR

RedManc7

I used SR as basically a online resource for that. Especially in the first stages. Sharing and then Reading words of encouragement from other SR. members helped no end.
I'm confused by the question a bit? Are they saying someone helping you from not using isn't proper recovery?

miamifella

To resolve confusion, yes I have always been told that in 12-step recovery that only a higher power can help and that to depend on people is not good.

I do not know where these non-crazy 12 groups are since every one of the few dozen attended in the last 15 years in four cities and every sponsor I ever had have taken the same stance. When someone is feeling the urge to use, you tell them to pray. Anything else puts your own recovery in dange.

And honestly, the first step says that we are powerless over addiction, so I think that is hard to get around that. You give up on human aid in step one, and turn to a higher power in steps two and three. That is why a sponsor leads you to contact with a higher power rather than trying to deal directly with addiction specifics.

I have learned on SR and elsewhere that individuals seem to be more relaxed about the kind of help that can be shared. But while I think this is a better, more helpful stance, it seems hypocritical to stay in 12-step recovery if you feel that way since it goes against the steps that are the basis of the program.

Posting things online is not the same as having a person with you face to face. The BB says no earthly power can help, but for me earthly powers are the only thing that does.

Yes there is a danger of taking someone out with you. Yes there is a danger of becoming dependent on other people for your recovery. And maybe that is what has happened to me.

It is heartening to see that others seem to be with me on this. I am guessing that only 12-step recovery has an issue with this and other programs are okay with it. And not everyone in 12-step recovery agrees with this aspect. (An if SR is any indication maybe one day that first step will get rewritten.)

biminiblue

I went to AA, and I think I must have gotten 200 phone numbers of people in my first four meetings. I called one time, at nine days, and I found great comfort in the words of the woman who I talked with for half an hour until my anxiety decreased and the urge passed.

I can't believe that you were told that others can't be helpful, nor that they wouldn't sit with you until the urge passed. If someone said that, I would just go down the list to the next person. Honestly, not everyone feels that way.

At this point I have other tools, and I can see where others might be reluctant to "sit with me" now that I'm past the initial few months of sobriety. I haven't needed them - but I am pretty sure I could find someone at any time of day should I really need them. At some point, I need to "get it." Could that be the problem? That AA members feel you have not fully accepted the program? - I know you talk about AA as not being helpful for you - why do you still go if you don't believe its tenets? If you do believe its tenets, then - yes, your HP is the ultimate cure - I'm confused still.

miamifella

I was in the program for about 7 or 8 years and I cannot say I recognize what you describe. It sounds like these meetings you went to were huge if you were able to talk to 50 people at each and get their phone numbers. That is just not something I have seen. In my experience with smaller meetings there are so many new people who come in and quickly drift out that you have to be around for a few weeks before any one takes you seriously. It may be that your groups are less strict about the program, which I learned has been the case in a lot of groups.

To be honest, I was not willing to do household chores or do willingness tests which limited my options for sponsors. (And may have disconnected me from people in the program.) But every sponsor I ever had said their job was to help me find a higher power, not to alleviate my addiction. When I called a sponsor when I was craving, he told me that to help me would negate his first step.

It is great that you found people who were able to help you with urges. But honestly, I do not think that is really consistent with the steps, which is why I left the program many years ago.

Once I left I did ask non-addict for friends and they helped so much. While I was in the program I constantly relapsed, and it was not till I decided to do "bad recovery" that it finally worked. I think it is great that you are able to do similar "bad recovery" in the program. When I was in the fellowship, I would have been chewed out for doing what you are doing.

NoelleR

Well...................:

1) I have never been told this (except by some Jesus freaks in AA), but that could be that I got sober with a bunch of atheists.

2) They're all over; they're the only meetings/groups I've attended (#'s in the thousands) in 6 states in 30 years. I've only had two sponsors (one an atheist, and one a born-again believer) and neither one said anything like this.

3) The 1st step does NOT say this; its says 'we WERE...' so there's no need to get around anything. ...and one does NOT give up human aid.

4) It's not hypocritical since it does NOT go against the basis of the program (your understanding of it perhaps).

5) 12-step recovery doesn't have an issue with this; nobody I know in 12-step recovery has an issue with this. You, however, do seem to have an issue with this.

Perhaps some more research on your part (AA has lots of books and pamphlets); check out some more groups/meetings...there are 70-90 groups and close to 1000 meetings a day in the Miami-Dade area...or call/write your local intergroup.

(o;
NoelleR

miamifella

I have only been to two or three dozen different groups in four cities, but I am still shocked at what you are saying.

I have read the literature, but it is pretty open on many aspects of the first three steps. It tells you what the steps are but does not tell you how to work them until the fourth step. And truthfully it had few answers for the questions I had on the steps, so I really had to depend on meetings and sponsors for answers.

I disagree with your interpretation of "we were" in the first step. You seem to be putting addiction in the past tense. I know that I personally have an ongoing powerlessness over my addiction. It is not something in the past for me. Personally, I am powerless over my addiction and think I probably will always will be---I will always be recovering and never completely recovered.

And giving up human aid in step one to find a higher power in step two/three seems like something so basic to the program that I am shocked that you disagree.

I have done enough reading and meetings. Because I was not willing to do chores, I had sponsors who did not work with sponsees till step four. So I spent years doing a lot of research and listening.

My recovery is so much based on open honest talk with people at the worst times in my life, that I definitely do NOT have an issue with this. I think it is great whenever I hear about individuals or 12-step groups that allow this.

However, I have had discussions with messages from people who have had the same experience and learned the same things I did in 12-step recovery. So while you may not be aware of it, what I am discussing is widespread in the program. I hope it changes, but it is still with us.

miamifella

I am glad that no one is coming down on me for suggesting this as a way to help recovery. I just got yelled at by someone who is in the fellowship who told me that depending on help from people can only lead back to drug use.

biminiblue

Well, you've got some time, yet you still struggle. I don't go to meetings anymore, but the issues that you continue to complain about seem to be more a personal thing against AA.

If you don't even go to AA, why worry about what "they" do or don't do? Find your own path. I think this resentment is probably indicative of your feelings toward yourself and people in general.

I believed I could stay sober, and I am. I don't dwell on perceived wrongs in the world - what would be the point in that? I don't dwell on using. When the thoughts to use come up, I acknowledge them, "Hm. There's that thought again. I don't drink." Then I wait for it to fade, and it always fades. Dwelling is obsessive thinking - and one of the things I work hard to overcome is negative obsessive thinking. Meditation, reading, distraction, being on this site, all help me.

It doesn't serve me to badmouth AA - what is the purpose?

*edit to say, 200 phone numbers in four meetings was probably an exaggeration...Two of the meetings I attended had pre-made lists, though. But even if it was 100, that's plenty of people to cycle through if I had needed help...which I didn't. I found answers and tools and used them. Heck, 20 phone numbers is enough. If you went for 7-8 years and didn't find anyone to connect with - I find that unusual.

miamifella

I have "found my own path." As I said it is being with people when I feel the urge.

However, I just recently ran into someone I knew from the rooms and had not seen in years. She asked about my recovery and I told her about what I did. She started yelling at me right there in the middle of a supermarket.

The reason I investigate what is behind this is so that there is no resentment. Resentment lives in silence. Taking action is how you avoid resentments. So rather than feel bad about what this woman said, I am trying to understand what is behind her vehement insistence that I am going to relapse because I am using my friends as "crutches" (to use her word).

12-step recovery was a big part of my life for many years. I cannot just turn off an interest and concern with it.

And I am not badmouthing AA. It clearly works for a lot of people. But it is sometimes obscure and sites like SR are the only place where you can get answers about the program.

I do not know where you are getting this idea about "obsessive thinking." This is a site about recovery. I come here to learn about recovery, to ask questions about recovery, and to let others in recovery know that they are not alone. No one ever told me that they went through what I did in the program and it was lonely. I do not want others to go through the same.

For me, recovery is a lifelong process and I will need to continue with it for many years to come. It may seem obsessive, but that is the nature of a site with a one-topic focus. If you saw my posts to a site about garlic you would think I was obsessed with garlic. If you saw my posts to a site about library censorship, you would thing that occupied all my waking hours.

It really disturbed me that this woman went off on me. She always seemed like a sensible level-headed person, so I was shocked. One of the reasons I left the program was to avoid this kind of unsolicited opinion and it followed me.

I just wanted to understand what the thinking behind her criticism was. She got angry when I asked her to explain so I came here.

NoelleR

We've had this dance before, fella, but what the heck; it's a holiday weekend, and I'm game for just about anything....................:

1) I'm not sure why you're shocked; I'm saddened that your views regarding AA haven't changed, despite others' words.

2) My "interpretation".....? My reading comprehension and grammar are excellent; I was a proofreader for 20 years, and the phrase "we were" IS past tense.

3) Well, my addiction IS in the past.....

4) This is absolutely your choice, but I am no longer powerless over my addiction, and I choose to align myself with the folks the AA BB speaks of on the cover page...: How Many Thousands of Men and Women Have RECOVERED from Alcoholism.

5) Again we're back to 'shocked' and 'saddened.' In fact, this is NOT a basic tenet of AA, although it may be your understanding of the basic tenet of AA, but that doesn't you right and anyone who disagrees with you wrong.

6) I'm not sure what 'chores' have to do with anything; nothing to do with AA, as far as I know, according to my experience.

You say you're not badmouthing AA, but what you say comes across in this manner. Actually, what I read is you're dislike for your 'understanding' of AA, and not so much what AA actually is.

(o:
NoelleR

miamifella

1) I feel a little gaslighted. I suspect that those who stay in AA are ones with experiences like yours. However, on SR and elsewhere there are many people who have spoken of similar experiences to mine.

2) I always took were as the conditional tense but even so, in my experience in AA, rehab, and every fellowship, I was always told that we ARE always powerless over our addiction which is why we cannot have even one drink or drug. The reason people say they are in recovery rather than recovered is because this is never over. This is something I learned in 12-Step recovery that I very strongly agree with. I do think I will always be powerless over substances.

I do disagree with "we." I think that as individuals we are powerless (or at least I am). However, I do believe that we as a group are not powerless and can help each other.

3) Hearing you say this disturbs me. They say it is one day at a time--so if you start thinking that your addiction is in the past and stop maintaining sobriety, this could lead to trouble. The 10th through 12 steps are in my experience referred to as maintenance steps, because even after you get over the struggle of early recovery one needs to be moving ahead to prevent going backward. This is probably the most important things I have taken from 12-step recovery and I get concerned when anyone says that they have put addiction behind them or have beaten it.

4) I hope you are recovered and do not need recovery anymore. However, that is not the AA I know.

5) Again, what you are saying is so contrary to what I have heard over and over again and read in the Big Book. I quote:

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
c) That God could and would if He were sought.

6) The chores I refer to are the ones assigned by sponsors to show willingness. I do not think cleaning someones garage has anything to do with recovery but this is how some sponsors work the first two steps. I think they are a crock and refused to take part in this.

I do not think disagreeing with the practices of AA means bad mouthing the program. I have often said that my vision of recovery comes from the program and that I still send people to meetings. It works for an awful lot of people and has a lot of wisdom.

I am sorry that this has exploded into a larger discussion when I really was focused on one thing that I was taught and that this woman lost her marbles about in the supermarket. I am happy that you and other people disagree with the idea that helping someone is bad recovery. I wish I had met people like you when I was in the program.

Dee74

Sorry - I thought you were genuinely wanting someone to metaphorically sit with you, MF.

Honestly - you need to let this AA stuff go man - they didn't help you? find something that will

D

Mountainmanbob

If I had a serious thought about drinking I could drive down the mountain to my Sponsors house, or call him on the phone.

A good moral Sponsor is a true asset for the one who wishes to stay sober.

MM

NoelleR

fella............

You say............:
2) I always took were as the conditional tense but even so, in my experience in AA, rehab, and every fellowship, I was always told that we ARE always powerless over our addiction which is why we cannot have even one drink or drug. The reason people say they are in recovery rather than recovered is because this is never over...

Although in many languages, there are conditional verbs [estar (as opposed to ser) in Spanish comes to mind], there are none in English. I am sorry you told that we are always powerless; this is not the AA I've learned, been a part of, or read of in any AA literature.

You say.............:
3) Hearing you say this disturbs me. They say it is one day at a time--so if you start thinking that your addiction is in the past and stop maintaining sobriety, this could lead to trouble.

I'm sorry this disturbs you. I don't know who your 'they' are, but the founders of AA never said that we get sober one day at a time; that phrase is nowhere in the BB; the founders said that we can quit for good and all (forever).

You said........:
4) I hope you are recovered and do not need recovery anymore. However, that is not the AA I know.

Yes, I am recovered, as the founders of AA said, but I did not say I had no need for recovery. ...and yes, this is the AA I know.

You said...........:
5) Again, what you are saying is so contrary to what I have heard over and over again and read in the Big Book. I quote:

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
c) That God could and would if He were sought...

You quote page 60 of the BB, however please note, 'b' does NOT say 'definitely no human power' nor does it say 'no human power' it merely says 'PROBABLY no human power.'

In closing, you said............:
I am sorry that this has exploded into a larger discussion when I really was focused on one thing that I was taught and that this woman lost her marbles about in the supermarket. I am happy that you and other people disagree with the idea that helping someone is bad recovery. I wish I had met people like you when I was in the program.

I'm sorry this woman went off on you.....NOT her business, and definitely NOT in the supermarket.

(o:
NoelleR

Mountainmanbob

In many cases what one tells me is the only way as explained in AA, I had better check the Big Book and study it hard. Many have twisted the Program so as to fit their own wants and needs. Actually I have a Program that is custom suited just for me, preferring the Bible as the #1 book and the AA Big Book as an excellent resource in regards to alcoholism and helping a drunk such as myself to stay away from the liquid devil.
Mountainman