SoberandGlad

I have had the belief that alcohol is alright to drink in moderation. Lately, I have thought of my past use of alcohol and my interactions with people who have used alcohol and I think it is just as bad as other drugs now. This is not just for some people, but for everyone. Maybe America had it right during the age of prohibition when alcohol was illegal. Nowadays, with legalized and medical marijuana, things are even worse.

I recently had some wine on a few occasions and think that it messed up my brain some. I thought wine in moderation was healthy; even the Bible says in some passages that a little wine is good. But there are numerous accounts in the Bible saying drunkenness is bad. I think that is confusing and contradictory that it states it is alright in some places, but not alright in others, but I side now on not drinking at all. When Jesus turned the water into wine it never said whether or not he drank any of it.

Anyways, I hate all drug use and now I consider alcohol to be a full-blown drug. One glass is enough to give a slight feeling like it is not right. I remember when I was younger and grown-ups had been drinking how bad they were to be around. I remember when I binge drank and the stupid things I did when I was under the influence. I hate it.

When I was in high school we were required to take drug education as a part of the physical education class my freshman year and the teacher said alcohol is not a drug, it is a depressant. But depressants are a classification of drugs, so it is a drug. Oh how I would have liked it better if I did not have to learn that the hard way. At least I am sober now, so I thank God for that.

FatallyUncool

Ha! Great post.

PurpleKnight

I think alcohol gets a better reputation ie "not a drug" because it is legal and widely accessible, it's even legal to advertise it!!

Smoking and nicotine is starting to go south due to health reasons and where I come from smoking in bars is now banned, attitudes may be started to change with alcohol, but are still a long way off!!

But regardless I agree with that it is a drug!!

biminiblue

Alcohol is definitely a drug, but you know people say things that are not true all the time.

That's why I try to listen to my inner voice (which I call God) to discern right from wrong.

One glass of wine for an alcoholic is not the same as one glass of wine for someone who has not had a problem with alcohol.

pl3bscheese

I don't understand how someone can think differently of a substance because it's legal or illegal. That just doesn't make much sense.

Let's get real, most things we ingest contain psychoactive substances, which have pharmacological properties. We have a tendency to label something a "drug" when certain chemicals breach a threshold in ability to change the function and structure of our psyche over time. This can be naturally sourced, whole material, extractions, or synthetic analogues.

Alcohol has it's place in our history. Nobody can say with certainty if things would have been better or worse without discovering alcohol. It certainly helped us control disease, and worked to ease our sufferings during hard times.

That's not to say, at all, that it's for everyone. Some people, for a multitude of possible reasons, are just not best when they drink. They may always have issues with moderation, turn into a reckless lunatic, or perhaps it creeps up on them over time. The other extreme is someone who seems to genuinely function better for life on whatever dose they choose to intake. It's just not a one size fits all.

Pretty much everything we intake, there are potential benefits and consequences. Drugs are extremes of this mix, and tend towards very noticeable results in general. Even taking in too much of a "good" thing will turn sour. The forum is substance abuse, not substance use.

Prohibition doesn't work. The war on drugs is a complete farce. We dump in tax payers dollars to fill up private prison facilities around the nation. The cartels in the south, and Asian mafia up north, gain influence due to our policies here in the US. We are, in effect, unwitting participants, and operating within a government of agents who empower human trafficking, prostitution, and the failed state of our southern bordering country.

The war on drugs doesn't help anyone, except greedy and ruthless individuals. People have free will, and will always seek out drugs in a perceived state of oppression and desperation, legal or not. There is no evidence of long term drop in rates of use of drugs in response to the states drug policies. If crimes are sufficiently harmful, people will adapt as they see fit.

SoberandGlad

To say that the war on drugs is a farce and that efforts to stop substance abuse in turn make people do worse things is a cop out. If the drug dealers step up their efforts to sell drugs, illegal or legal, in response to efforts to curb their use, then the drug busters must step up their efforts to stop them. It is good versus evil. Drug use is always evil because it violates the human person as it was created and meant to be.

I support the war on drugs and do not think it is a waste of time or money. Teaching children in high school that drugs are bad is a smart thing to do. Even posting drug-free school zone signs to keep alcoholics and drug dealers off of the property is still worth the effort. The penalties for being caught with drugs for students are tremendous and should be because drug use is so bad to society, not beneficial. We do not want a society of junkies in our country or world.

But we must understand that there are some who have problems with drugs and help them to stop using and abusing, whatever you want to call it. We should not go soft on them, though, just because they have problems with drugs. Drugs are bad and are always bad, including alcohol.

pl3bscheese

Yea, you know, cause that whole alcohol prohibition.. it totally worked... wait what was the intention? I mean it worked for the gangs, and corrupt politicians, but the people?? The stats are available.

No copout. It's reality!

It's an absolute waste of resources and monies.

That whole "evil" bit you got going on, you didn't create it, it was something planted into you by the culture and society in general. I see no evil.

You wanna say "drugs" are evil, then don't take tylenol, don't support benzo's for withdrawals, or ssri's for depressive people... make sure you don't take in caffeine, and certainly don't intake simple sugar, because it's basically a drug as well.

Yea, not gonna buy into your ridiculous reasoning.

Drugs are bad,,, mmmkaayY!

LOL!

SoberandGlad

Are you serious? The statistics in fact go the other way around. Fighting against drug use has brought down crime, not brought it up. Just think about it... if people do not use drugs, they are less likely to commit other crimes. The gangs during prohibition still drank, did they not? Therefore, they were abusing drugs and in turn committed more and worse crimes. It is common sense and logic.

Drug use is not going to just go away on its own, just like any other evil in society. We have to fight it. I believe in a culture that prohibits and does not even consider drug use and am glad that I have been raised in one that has planted the seeds of truth in me to resist the evils of the drug culture. I think the drug culture has planted in you the seeds of falsehood and sarcasm. You should not listen to those lies that the drug culture spreads. They do no good for our culture and society, they only do harm to it.

In the Bible (Sirach chapter thirty-eight) it says that God works to heal us through medicines that are of the earth, so some medications are not bad. There are some, however that are bad and we should not use them. I can do without tylenol. Proper exercise keeps me healthy and I rarely get sick. Sweets I can stay away from as well. They are not necessarily bad, I just do not need them and might even be better off without them.

Your sarcasm does not scare me. You need to take life more seriously. Your laughter only fuels my fire.

Dee74

Guys my advice is to not make this discussion personal.

Drugs use and drug laws are a very complex and ancient problem.
We won't solve it here in this thread.

I think we can keep the argument civil and free from personal 'pot shots' tho.

Dee
Moderator
SR

Shining~Again

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Shining~Again

The people in my county have done these things to "help" our immense drug
problem (meth/heroin/opiates):

1. the newspapers do a lot of articles on our growing drug problem
2. police and political people speak at school and show graphic videos and pictures
3. they hold meetings quite a lot
4. people in pharmacies talk about anyone who has a "bad back" or some other injury. Suspicion of others = gossip is even stronger than ever
5. No doctor will prescribe anything to any person who's seeking help to get of drugs/alcohol.
6. Local hospital closed up the only place a person can go for drug/alcohol issues.
7. As quiet as my state tried ot keep it, a man who told the truth about his drinking to a doctor had his driver's license pulled. Lot of people didn't tell their doctors the truth before, now it's been shown to the public that even if you are not drinking and driving, that if you tell your doctor that you drink eh...let's say a 6 pack a night at home, if SHE/HE feels it may impair your driving....they send a paper to the state. License is pulled. Heaps are articles on that have been written about this one particular case.

I've been, in the past, really confused why doctors/pharmacists treat patients they way they do. In the last few months tho my opinion are changing. I can feel so much empathy for both people. The addicts and the doctors.
The ones I feel the most empathy for are chronic pain patients who are not addicts but got pulled into this.

All my sympathy, empathy, education, been there/done that, means nothing.

I see all doors that help addicts have closed up around here.

Crime has increased to .....well, let me say we used to only have drunk driving and domestic abuse in our local papers.
The majority now is crime, mainly theft, break ins. Now people are actually killing each other. Oh....and the suicides? More than ever before. Many families have come right out and said it's from their relatives seeking pain relief after getting cut off by doctor. Others will say their loved one couldn't get any help for their addiction.

Still, meetings are set up for the community, articles keep being published, people continue to watch their neighbor suspiciously, pharmacists and secretaries gossip about others and loudly too....they don't even have the decency to be quiet. Why? Why should they? Addicts are viewed as not deserving of help or kindness. Bottom of the barrel.

THAT is the bottom line on the war on drugs (whatever that means) in my county.
But hey...it's something for people to focus on rather than their own failings in life.

Still people talk, share opinions, organize meetings. It's the new hobby here.

NoelleR

The only thing the drug war has accomplished is to deplete our pockbooks. There are approximately the same percentage of drug users/addicts today as there were in 1970, yet our spending for the drug war has increased from less thsn 2 billion to over 20 billion; doesn't seem very fiscally responsible to me.

(o:
NoelleR

xxEllaxx00

I think that everyone on this thread has highlighted important ideas, and both bring valid arguments to the table...

Sure, "big pharma" might be evil...but then again...everyone's got something to sell, and instead, each individual
should buy products and use the drugs at their own discretion...And by that I'm not suggesting an all out free for all...

The issue is a doubled edged sword:
1) Drugs, both legal and illegal, cause and have caused huge issues, and
Just because pharmaceutical companies put their stamp of approval on it doesn't necessarily render a particular drug safe.

2) Again, as adults, we should research these drugs, and do what we feel is right for ourselves and our own lives. many
drugs both naturally occurring or synthetic have done wonders for our society as previously stated...anti-seizure medications
for those with epilepsy, anti-depressants for those with mild to severe depression...and if you want to go the "illegal"
route- weed- has helped a plethora of people experiencing chronic pain, for instance

Pretty much any sweeping generalization including "all drugs are bad" tends to be false, as it lacks the nuance needed
to create a fair, full picture of an idea, and instead, just paints it as black or white.


And as for the whole mention of prohibition, there is something about human nature that makes people just want
what they cant have... it just becomes more alluring...this was the case with alcohol, certainly, and just like
with any other drug/thing in the world, if someone is truly bent on partaking in said drug or action, they're
going to find a way to do it regardless of what their respective government says. A simple look through this website
should make that clear...there are people who've had issues with smoking, alcohol, benzos, various opiates - all seen
as "legal" in the eyes of the U.S. government, (regardless of their actual availability). None of the drugs
named in that last sentence are harmless, and , for certain individuals can still end in addiction
and health problems. The same goes for OTC drugs, such as painkillers, like advil/tylenol...taken in excess
they are known to cause extensive damage to ones internal organs...
then there are people who have had issues with heroin, an illegal opiate, meth, or cocaine...all illegal ,
(and I know we won't come to a consensus on what's more "dangerous" or more of a threat the legal or illegal drugs) Basically, we can outlaw as many drugs as we'd like...people will still continue to get their hands on them, and yet, we continually turn a blind eye to the abuse that goes on with drugs our government deems "okay".

The conversation on the U.S. drug war is still an open debate...while it was widely necessary it hasn't really
accomplished much in the scheme of things, and has resulted in our country just throwing tons of money out the window
Each year, we lock up tons of non-violent drug offenders, as U.S. citizens throw their taxdollars to prisons...
(because, who's really interested in rehabilitation, anyway?)all while the larger, more important drug lords are still sitting
somewhere in Colombia or Mexico smoking a cigar or something...We can have a war on drugs, but we gotta do it right.

cleaninalabama

While I certainly do not deny that alcohol is a drug, the thought of the war on drugs being a success is mind blowing. The US and state governments have spent over a trillion dollars in the past four decades fighting this "war." What do we have to show for it? The highest incarceration rate in the entire world. That is certainly not something to be proud of as a people. Around one percent of the country's population is behind bars and we account for about 24% of the world's prisoners despite having less than 5% of the population. Making things even worse is the fact that low-icome and minority groups are disproportionately affected by our nation's policies. While African-Amercians account for 13% of the U.S. population, they proportionately account for 13% of the nation’s drug users but account for 34% of those arrested for drug offenses and 45% of those held in state prisons for drug offenses. In 2009, there were an additional 582,759 adults on probation and 261,666 adults on parole for drug law violations in the U.S.

This a website dedicated to substance abuse and recovery. The war on drugs does little to nothing to address the disease of addiction. It is estimated that less than 10% of those that need treatment for substance abuse are able to obtain such treatment. Since the start of this war on the American people, drug use has remained steady. Clearly incarceration does not work as a deterrent. It does work to disenfranchise minority populations.

I do not personally understand how a nation can declare a war on an intangible object and have any hope of prevailing. There will simply never come a time when we can wipe our hands off and say "we got 'em all" and declare victory. There will always be those that suffer from this disease and need help. I also do not think that I would like to live in a country where all drugs and alcohol were nonexistent. The fact that we addicts are unable to control our use of drugs should not take away from the enormous amount of good that these drugs do for the population as a whole. I think of this every time that I see someone refer to these "evil pills" or something along those lines. The pills are not evil. We (and me above all) are unable to responsibly use these drugs but that should not mean that my mother or neighbor or coworker should not be able treat their depression or pain or other ailment with medicines that are known to be effective. That is a selfish way to think. The same applies to alcohol. The vast majority of people are able to responsibly enjoy a drink. They should not be denied this because of the lack of control some are able to exercise.

PS-Jesus most certainly did drink. Whether he drank when he performed his first miracle or not, there are certainly other instances in the bible where he did. Without digging very deep, the last supper comes to mind. Would you have my church stop the practice of communion every sunday because it involves parishioners having a sip of wine?

SoberandGlad

Of course Communion in church is the exception to prohibition, as it was when alcohol was illegal. I know that Jesus and other Biblical figures had wine from time to time, too, especially during the celebration of Passover and at wedding feasts. After the flood, Noah got drunk once and ended up naked and his sons had to cover him up. There are many other stories and passages in the Bible of drinking and drunkenness. One thing I find to be consistent is that drunkenness leads to bad things.

I do believe alcohol is a drug and should be treated as one. To leave it in the gray area of "well, it is a drug for some and not a drug for others" or "it is not a drug if you only have so much of it" is not very accurate. For me in my life, things would have been better without beer or liquor, champagne or wine. Not just my intake of alcohol, but the intake of alcohol made by others as well. You cannot say that sobriety allows for the intake of alcohol. Being sober is a state of mind that alcohol disrupts.

OpioPhobe

SoberandGlad - my personal take on it is that alcohol is clearly a drug. If I was an all-powerful deity and I could erase its existence from earth I would do so. Unfortunately I am just a mere mortal and have to work within the confines of reality.

Alcohol's legal status and its availability are two separate things. Of all the substances I consider 'drugs', I can't think of another one that would be more difficult to control through the law. Anyone can make alcohol over the course of a few days with almost any plant material known to mankind. Even an authoritarian state with no regard for person liberty would find it impossible to eradicate alcohol consumption. Iran uses capital punishment for alcohol consumption, but the Iranian citizens drink anyway.

Prohibition did curtail alcohol consumption significantly despite the popular notion to the contrary. I don't have the data in front of me, but if you look a death rates from liver disease during prohibition there was clearly a drop. However, the side effects of those policies had a terrible, lasting impact on society. In my opinion, the cure was much worse than the disease as far as prohibition goes.

My interpretation of the scriptures is that drunkenness is not something that is beneficial. However, I don't see anything that prohibits alcohol consumption per se. This is only my interpretation though, and it's not like I will be the One on the seat of judgment. Even if the scriptures did prohibit alcohol consumption that would be irrelevant to the decision regarding the legal status of alcohol. The US government isn't a theocracy.

OxyMaddened

I cannot believe anyone with any semblance of logic and common sense could even remotely believe the "war on drugs" has been any kind of success, or that it has been beneficial to this country. Well, I take that back, because it has been beneficial to the following folks:

The Corporate, Private Prison conglomerates gaining an ever expanding foothold in the "Corrections" Industry...of which some of our esteemed Congressional members are investors in.

The various police agencies which reap huge amounts of taxpayer dollars ill-spent doing things like arresting people for buying 2 packages of sudafed decongestants for their allergies or colds, because it "could" be used to manufacture meth.

Or the Man in Florida, who worked a regular job, always paid his rent on time, (his landlord vouched for him as a model tenant) was quiet and otherwise law-abiding, but occasionally smoked a joint, and once in awhile sold a joint to a friend. Months prior he'd had a man stalk and threaten him, so he went to the police and asked for help. They told him he should buy a gun for self-protection. He was still worried about the man so he installed a video system. The police, trying to justify their raid on this "drug kingpin" claimed the presence of video cameras "proved" he must be a "high level drug dealer" despite the fact they had sent a UC in trying to buy a bunch of weed and he'd only had a joint here & there to part with. So, when suddenly armed men, who DID NOT warn him or identify themselves immediately as police, stormed in, he reached for his gun to protect himself and was immediately shot dead.

Killed for 0.2 grams of weed. Not even enough to roll a joint.
Yes, our country is MUCH SAFER if we incarerate, or better yet, kill dangerous people like this.

It's a total failure for everyone except the agencies mentioned above. The fascist way it's being carried to such extremes has possibly destroyed more lives than the people who abuse, rather than responsibly use, alcohol, marijuana and other drugs. Do some research on how many botched raids, on the wrong houses, and storm trooper tactics are being used on non-violent citizens villified for using a plant from nature. Then come back and tell us what a success the ridiculously-ran war on drugs is.

SoberandGlad

Thank you for opinions everyone.

I just do not understand why everyone thinks that Prohibition and the War on Drugs are such failures. They are both founded on good ideas - to keep society safer through the prevention of intoxication by means of controlling what substances are allowed and not allowed in society. The pros outweigh the cons in my point of view.

In America, we are a democracy and we believe in individual liberty. Liberty does not mean that we can do whatever we want; with freedom comes responsibility and accountability. Any danger to self or others is a threat to our personal liberties and that is why we enact laws to prevent these liberties from being jeopardized. So, to me at least, it makes sense to take efforts to expunge dangerous drugs from our society.

Well, the Church is a theocracy, however, and I would side with what the Church says about the fine-line issue of whether or not the use of small amounts of alcohol, say with meals, is good or evil.

I just know that binge drinking and the public intoxication of alcohol are bad and always bad. So whatever religion or country you belong to, being drunk is not a good thing. (It seems like I am stating the obvious, but there are some people out there who think drunkenness is tolerable and brings people together).

Dee74

Prohibition did not work SobernGlad.
Check out the excellent Ken Burns documentary series.

Prohibition: Home | PBS

D

cleaninalabama

The war on drugs and prohibition may very will be based on good intentions (though I think they are both based on greed and disenfranchisement) but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There isn't a person on here that would argue with you about alcohol being a drug. Seriously, that is a fact and no one can argue that it is not. Coffee and tylenol and blood pressure medicine and all sorts of things are drugs too. What people take issue with is the thought that these policies are sound.

I am sober and do not partake in drugs or alcohol. I do not partake because my brain cannot comprehend how someone could want just one. I do not know when to say when. I understand that and that is why I no longer use. However, I have many friends and family members that enjoy a glass of wine or a beer or a cocktail. There is nothing wrong with that in my eyes. They do not drink to excess and do not have a problem with control. The inability of us, as addicts, to control our use cannot and should not control the lives of the majority of people who are able to responsibly take their medications or have a drink (two totally different things being lumped together by your ban all drugs argument).

Lastly, it is hard for me to believe that the war on drugs or prohibition could be supported by someone with such seemingly strong Christian convictions. I participate in a prison ministry called kairos. I would urge you to visit a prison and minister to some of the people there. If you are anything like me, it will benefit you as much, if not more, than those on the inside. When you are able to put faces and families on the casualties of this war on the American people, I think you might have a very different view of the success of these policies. I can see where you would want to believe that the war on drugs is working, but even top law enforcement officials admit it is not and that we should move away from incarceration and towards treatment and a more compassionate approach. If for no other reason than we do not have the resources to continue down this road. I live in Alabama and I am an attorney in a small town here. I have seen rapists and murderers set free years before their scheduled release date because of prison over crowding. Our republican super majority in the state legislature continuously passes stronger and stronger drug laws requiring longer and longer sentences. The result is gross overcrowding and thus the release of violent offenders to make room for these mandatory sentences. Our prison system is at around 200% of capacity. The only way to safely house these prisoners is to build more prisons and that requires income (taxes) and if their is one things aside from being tough on crime that you can say about conservatives, it is that they will not be for a tax increase. So, we face federal intervention to supervise our prisons because of the dangerous and inhumane conditions inmates are housed in.

As you can see, I have pretty strong feelings on this. I know that there are issues that reasonable people can disagree on but I truly believe that the statistics and facts of these policy initiatives clearly show that they do not work.