Gradual taper from oxycodone

[Ekat]

My doctor wants me to do a very slow taper from oxycodone. Has anyone done this or do you know of anyone who has done this successfully? Even holding the dose steady for months (120mg/daily) I am VERY depressed. Today I just knocked myself out to sleep all day. I don't want to do anything anymore.

I feel that my life is completely ruined.

[kj3880]

I'm so sorry that you are having to do this. I can't tell you how to taper off oxy because I failed at that many, many, many times. But if you are not an addict, it may work for you, if you stick to it exactly as your doctor tells you to do it. Every addict tries it, and if they are addicts, they pretty much all fail. But try it, maybe you are not an addict????

It is normal for you to be depressed tapering and after you quit completely for a while, because opiates like oxy will increase the way the feel-good chemicals work in your brain (endorphin levels) so much that your brain learns to not function properly in this way without the oxy. That is why oxy makes you feel euphoric (until the dreaded crashes). But as you may have discovered, eventually even high levels of oxy no longer get you high anymore. They just get you well or normal. And you may have found that you are ill if you go without.

You are on a pretty high (but not unheard of) dose of oxy now. Tapering might take some time if you are not to be sick.

I wasn't successful with it, as I said, and I ended up seeing an addictionologist after trying on my own for a few months. He put me on suboxone for a while, and that is much easier, at least for most people, to taper off of. It didn't get me high, and I was fine on just 4-8 mg a day. It made my life normal. No more ups, no more downs.

But I was really ready to give up getting high. I was fine with just feeling normal, not depressed, not high. Suboxone is for those who are done getting high.

In addition, I had to go to NA meetings most days and get a sponsor and work steps to work on the inside feelings that I was running from. The meetings are really what changed my life and made me feel like I was not just quitting a substance, but was improving and feeling happy for the first time, maybe ever.

Let me know what you decide. If you are going to taper, or try it, we'll all be hopeful that it works better than it did for me.

Love,
KJ

[dragonheart]

[QUOTE=Ekat;2384137]My doctor wants me to do a very slow taper from oxycodone. Has anyone done this or do you know of anyone who has done this successfully? Even holding the dose steady for months (120mg/daily) I am VERY depressed. Today I just knocked myself out to sleep all day. I don't want to do anything anymore.

I feel that my life is completely ruined. [/QUOTE If you cut down 15 mg of oxycodone every four to five days it will not be that bad,but it may make you more tired and a little nausea which won't be that bad.By doing this,you could be off of them in a month.This is probably what your doctor is talking about.Try it and your body will let you know.Good luck.:praying

[Dee74]

The very best way to do a taper would be to ask your doctor for precise directions, Ekat

D

[Vintersemestre]

"Very slow" taper does not mean you're totally off of them in a month. If you go from 120mg to 0 in 30 days you will just suffer protracted withdrawal and nothing less.

[lostbutterfly]

I've been tapering off codeine and my script was months long (and it is way, way weaker opiate than oxy). But it was based on the years I was addicted, not the dose I was addicted to.

All I can say, is I had to be truly done with the pills to stick to any script. I had to get to the point where they no longer gave me anything, all they did was take.

I have stuck to it to the letter, even now when my dose is so low, that it seems a pointless exercise. Oh, I also go to recovery meetings, have a sponsor, etc etc. This would NOT be happening otherwise!!

[Faerie]

Hey Ekat,

My doctor has me tapering off of codeine.

I tried cold turkey [didn't work] tried subs [was using within 2 weeks] and now he has decided to taper me off at my own pace.

I am down from 50-60 OTC pills a day to 15 now and doing well.

It is hard but possible.

If this is what your doctor feels is best for you give it a go, it is achievable.

It has worked for Lost Butterfly and myself.

Best wishes my friend, you can and will beat this.

Much love,

Faerie xx

[Ekat]

Well, I already messed up day 2, taking the full 120mg. instead of 115mg. I keep hoping to sleep through a dose, but my body keeps very good time!

I know that this crap has changed my personality. I never laugh any more. I don't know what happened to my absurdist humor.

This taper, if it is to work at all, will take a good year. I feel like I'm throwing away my life right now. I get absolutely nothing done. I cry all the time. I don't want to leave my home.

I would go the suboxone route if I could tolerate being in full withdrawal, but when I ran out of my meds several weeks ago, I would have hurt myself from the weird, unique pain of withdrawal. I was taken to the ER by ambulance, and at the hospital I was screaming for a while until the doctor came down and gave me a shot of morphine. That was after only 12 hours without the drug. How could I ever get through the number of hours to be given suboxone. (Is there a set number of hours?)

It's so hard for me to do anything at this point - even to take a shower. The anxiety is terrible.

I am so angry for having started it. It felt like the magic bullet at the beginning. Speaking of a pact with the devil!

[lostbutterfly]

I f*cked up for the first month on my script ekat. Something definitely switched over in my mind after that, I can't be any more helpful than that, sorry.

One thing I did do was put the pills in a vitamin pill bottle and take them with my vitamins and antidepressants - which I spread over the day. I found even the sight of the box or the sound of the pills popping out the blister pack could trigger me, so I had to get rid of those things.

But I have been attending AA for a year now, and like I say, I couldn't do it without that program. I had to accept my powerlessness, and it took a while for the pills to break me like drink did, and get me to surrender.

I would seriously consider getting some kind of help and support if I were you. This was impossible for me to do alone. LB xx

[Vintersemestre]

I must congratulate your doctor on being wise enough to prescribe the 5mg tablets and drop you that slowly and not to have cut you by a whole 40mg or something, which is what they tend to do. If you find you still cannot taper, see my post on your other thread.

EDIT: Sorry, not "your" other thread, it's the "oxycodone withdrawal help" thread by bman.

[kj3880]

OK, I see what you're talking about now. In my opinion, you are an addict at this point, so maybe suboxone would be appropriate for you. It wasn't bad for me, at all.

I took my last dose of oxy late in the afternoon the day before the appointment. I took a couple of sleeping pills (as prescribed, but you could take two tylenol PMs if you are not allergic to them) and went to bed early, before any symptoms started. I had an early appointment, at about 10 am. I felt a bit yucky not getting my morning dose, but I drove with a friend to the doctor.

The doctor did my intake, then had me sit around the clinic while I went into further symptoms. As soon as I started having um...problems in the bathroom...I was given the script. Then I went next door to the pharmacy, stuck in under my tongue, and in five minutes, I was fine. I was observed for a bit, then I was determined well enough to travel, and sent home with my first weeks' pills.

I came back in a week and the doctor talked to me for about an hour, adjusted my dose, and sent me home with 2 weeks' worth of script. Then after that, I went once a month. It really wasn't that hard for me. I didn't feel in any hurry to stop them. I just felt normal, like I did when I was a kid. It gave me time to begin working on my life, getting myself together, finding a sponsor, all that. For me, it was a miracle, or part of one. NA was the rest of the miracle.

I don't think it is that bad being in a little bit of withdrawal for a morning. I was told by my doctor that 24 hours is totally unnecessary. Most addicts I know can't go that long or they would have quit on their own, unless they are inpatient. Maybe go inpatient detox if you can't do it outpatient?

Love,
KJ

[Nallabelle]

I was on 100mg of vicodin ( not the same, obviously but at least comparable) and I tapered myself off. No reason why it should drag out a year. That sounds like someone who is making excuses not to quit.
3 months and you should be off. If you are looking for a magic answer for no withdrawals, you arent going to get it no matter what you do. The funny thing is, if you would have went cold turkey off the stuff the day you posted this, you would probably been feeling a little better by now.
I know how hard it is and how much discipline it takes. If you cant do it, you might consider the suboxone.

[JustWantOff]

Ekat,

I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation. It is going to be a tough thing to beat, but if you want it....you can do it.

Your depressed and your alone.

Why don't you go to a meeting? Join a group of people who are or have experienced the same thing you are....I'm sure it will do you a world of good. Meetings may not be for everyone, but for you, who doesn't seem to have much family around, I think I would give it a go...

As far as your taper plan, and you taking the whole 120 vs the 115, in my opinion, your letting fear get in your way, aside from the addict telling you to take it. I'm sure the experience you had when you ran completly out kind has freaked you out and your trying not to go there again. I don't blame you as that IS NOT a good feeling, but neither is the feelings your having now.

Again, this is just my opinion, I think doing the suboxone would work great for you. It works Ekat, but you have to push the fear aside of withdrawing for a day and do it.

I induced on the subs yesterday. Yes, just yesterday. I went from taking 120+mg's of oc's to 4 mg of subs and guess what? I feel wonderful. I don't have that fear gripping me that I always and I do mean always had when I was taking the oc's.

I realize it's only been 2 days since I"ve not had an oc, and yes, the 30 hour wait until I could take the sub was a bit wicked, but I would have done it a long time ago if I knew I was going to feel so good, so releived in such a short time.

There is another website similar to this one, a very good place to check out if you want to do the sub route. There is a wonderful, kind caring man who will help you induce on the subs........or, he can help you with your taper program. I have read hundreds of posts from the people he has helped, from the first day they started to months and months down the road. It is truly amazing.

If you want it bad enough Ekat, you can do it. I have faith in you.

[Ekat]

Originally Posted by kj3880

OK, I see what you're talking about now. In my opinion, you are an addict at this point, so maybe suboxone would be appropriate for you. It wasn't bad for me, at all.

I took my last dose of oxy late in the afternoon the day before the appointment. I took a couple of sleeping pills (as prescribed, but you could take two tylenol PMs if you are not allergic to them) and went to bed early, before any symptoms started. I had an early appointment, at about 10 am. I felt a bit yucky not getting my morning dose, but I drove with a friend to the doctor.

The doctor did my intake, then had me sit around the clinic while I went into further symptoms. As soon as I started having um...problems in the bathroom...I was given the script. Then I went next door to the pharmacy, stuck in under my tongue, and in five minutes, I was fine. I was observed for a bit, then I was determined well enough to travel, and sent home with my first weeks' pills.

I came back in a week and the doctor talked to me for about an hour, adjusted my dose, and sent me home with 2 weeks' worth of script. Then after that, I went once a month. It really wasn't that hard for me. I didn't feel in any hurry to stop them. I just felt normal, like I did when I was a kid. It gave me time to begin working on my life, getting myself together, finding a sponsor, all that. For me, it was a miracle, or part of one. NA was the rest of the miracle.

I don't think it is that bad being in a little bit of withdrawal for a morning. I was told by my doctor that 24 hours is totally unnecessary. Most addicts I know can't go that long or they would have quit on their own, unless they are inpatient. Maybe go inpatient detox if you can't do it outpatient?

Love,
KJ

Thank you for that post. It was very helpful. What, and how much were you takingbefore you started on subs? Can you send me more of your story, either on here or privately? I need to know more detail. I'm having a hard time finding out about specifics. I think that most people don't think that people want to read about the "little" details, but this is what I need. My life is falling apart completely.

Thank you very much, KJ.

Ekat

[lostbutterfly]

Hi ((Ekat)). Just to let you know, the only reason I even attempted to taper off codeine was because I couldn't get any substitute therapy for it. They use methadone over here for bad codeine addictions, and I really didn't want to go down that route, as I've abused methadone in the past too.

Reading what you have said on the other thread, I really think you should consider subs. I have no experience of them. All I know, is my tapering allowed me to keep my head together, stay really stable emotionally (I suffer from depression and anxiety too) and give a 12 step program (and my meds) a chance to work.

And from what I've read on this board, so do subs. They make you feel "normal". I can't tell you how amazing it has been to just feel "normal" these past two months. The madness of chasing after these pills just stopped, it was wonderful, and I felt so free. And no guilt!!!

[JustWantOff]

I couldn't agree more with lostbutterfly!

If you really want to do this you can. I realize I'm making it seem simple, but the worst part is getting over the fear of going without for 24 hours. You can psych yourself up to where it's more anxiety from stopping than the withdrawal.

Ekat, I'm the biggest whimp I know. Seriously.

But the chasing, the constant thinking of who what where when and how I was going to get enough to last me through another month takes it's toll on you.

Ekat, a few hours of pain and then it's gone, and I mean it is gone! All of it.

Last Wednesday I took at least 140 mg's of oxies, kept out 3 and flushed, yes flushed the other 120, 15 mg's of the remaining oxies I had. I knew i couldn't get a refill until the middle of this month. I knew I was tired of fighting ME. I was tired of the isolated feeling, the mood swings, the depression, the loss of friends, family this had caused. Yes. Those oxies cause terrible mood swings, intensify your depression, hell, they even make your true existing pain worse right? I mean, arent they supposed to make things better. NO. They suck you dry right down into the pits of hell and keep you there.

Sorry, I kind of got off track.....anyway, yea, kept only 3 to get me through Thursday so I could function at work. Planned on calling in sick on Friday (also had the appt with the sub dr) and forced myself to stay CALM. Put my trust in God that He would get me through this and He did.

Thursday night was a bit wicked I will admit, but nothing that can't be handled if you set your mind to do this and stay CALM. I sat in the tub a few times, zoned in and out waiting for 11:00 A.M. I paced the floors, I think I even orderded something off a infomercial!! I guess what I'm babbling on trying to get as is, I kept busy trying do keep myself calm and not think about those pills.

9:30 Friday morning guess where I was? Yup! I showed up an hour early just in case he could get me in quicker, and he did. By 12 noon, I was home, in bed feeling GREAT! Yes, I was feeling great. I had help with the induction from a very kind caring experienced person who specializes in suboxone induction (much more than the 8 hour course the Drs take) He is a Godsend. He stepped me through every hour, he's still monitoring me and will continue to do so until I'm tapered off the subs. He has helped 100's with much worse addictions than you and I do the very same Ekat, and they've remained clean even after stopping the subs. The point is to get on and off the subs as quickly and painlessly possible. 3 months at the most. During this time, while your mind is clear and thinking straight and normal, you can find a support group to keep you clean. Suboxone is a tool to make the process relatively painless, keeping off is a job for you.

I didn't start the subs out at the dosage the Dr said........I started out at 1mg, then I waited an hour, monitored how I felt, then took another 1mg, did this one more time and I was almost there....at the end I induced at 3.8 mg of subs vs the 12 - 16 he wanted me at. There is NO need to take that large of an amount if you do not need to. Remember, you have to wean off this too.

So......here it is a few days later and I am amazed.

No cravings, no w/d's, lots of energy, my emotions are in check, I'm smiling and laughing!!!

You can do this Ekat, you need to do this sweetie.

If you would like more information I will glady give it to you.

I hope you make the decision to get help, you will find the world isn't such a bad place after all.

[Ekat]

JWO,

Yes, I would love more information. Thank you for that very helpful post. I have a lot of discordant information, and I am becoming very confused.

I want a life again, and to be able to laugh and enjoy life. Right now I'm miserable and so sad. I've lost almost everything.

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by Ekat

I have a lot of discordant information, and I am becoming very confused.

Ekat,

It's easy to become confused because everyone shares their own experience and we're all individuals. Although we are afflicted with the same disease, the disease of addiction manifests and plays out in everyone's life a bit differently. If you read my blog about my first Sub experience, you will find that I listened to everyone who had anything to say about Sub (especially if I was told that I shouldn't be doing what I was doing). It was a disasterous experience and it ended in relapse.

I don't make it a well-known fact (until now, that is) that I'm back on Suboxone. I don't want a slew of negative opinions on the therapy that I have found is necessary for me. This time, I'm listening to my doctor (and heeding the wisdom of my sponsor). I don't know about you, but I get confused with posts such as: "I didn't start the subs out at the dosage the Dr said..." For me, that kind of thinking and behavior comes from my disease and to act on it would put my recovery on a shakey foundation. It's my disease that tells me that I can be in control of my drug use, especially if I'm taking less than what's prescribed. Please read my blog and see where that thinking got this addict.

I'm doing much better this time (and I'm taking the entire 16mg prescribed to me). Will I have a longer and possibly more difficult withdrawal from the Suboxone? Guess what? I'm not going to address that right now. Right now, all I know and can care about is that what the doctor is doing is keeping me from going insane, is keeping me off oxy, and is giving me time to start a program of recovery. I am very blessed to have a sponsor who is willing to work the steps with me while I'm on Suboxone. I still have cravings. Suboxone has never relieved the cravings 100%. However, I don't have the horrible obsession that led me to hurting myself in order to distract from it either.

Although I felt like a failure not being able to stay clean in spite of quitting c/t a few times, it's working out for me. Personally, I think that to ask an addict to taper off oxy over a period of a year and not expect that addict to get high during that time would be comparable to asking a post-pubescent individual to slowly rip off a bandaid affixed with super glue to their pelvis, one pubic hair at a time!!! It would be the MOST painful and ineffective way to get the job done. This addict's brain, even with 60+ days off oxy, can't begin to comprehend being able to do that. Just the thought of having ingest oxy is torture. I know that I absolutely would HAVE to get high at some point during that miserably long 365 days of tapering.

I commend your physician for his compassion. I just can't fathom such a tapering program being possible. Although I could manipulate the Sub to get high and have done that in the past, it's a pretty sh!tty high. Besides, it started the obsession and compulsion up again and I didn't stop until I got good and sick from it. I haven't made that mistake this time around. It certainly helps that the temptation to abuse Suboxone isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what the temptation would be if it were oxys in my hand. From my experience, I believe that as long as you are ingesting oxys, even with your doctor's permission, the obsession and the compulsion will not permit you to experience the freedom from addiction that Suboxone will allow you to experience.

I would be happy to share my Suboxone experience with you if you want to PM me.

[kj3880]

I'll PM you with more details. I'll send you my number if you want to call me.
KJ

[JustWantOff]

I do agree we all have our opinions and what works for some, may not work for others. It's up to the individual to decide.

There are physicians who will start you out on 16 mg, period. Whether you abused 50mg's of opiates a day, or 500...., many people can not stand to ingest that amount into their system. If there is NO reason to to start as such a high dose, why do it?

What is Suboxone?


Suboxone contains a combination of buprenorphine and naloxone. Buprenorphine is an opioid medication. Buprenorphine is similar to other opioids such as morphine, codeine, and heroin however, it produces less euphoric ("high") effects and therefore may be easier to stop taking.

Now, why would you want to ingest more opiates than necessary to achieve the same goal?

It maximizes the potential of swapping one opiate for another.

Again, this is just my opinion.

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by JustWantOff

I do agree we all have our opinions and what works for some, may not work for others. It's up to the individual to decide.

IMO, addicts deciding what's in their best interest regarding prescriptions is dangerous territory.

There are physicians who will start you out on 16 mg, period. Whether you abused 50mg's of opiates a day, or 500...., many people can not stand to ingest that amount into their system. If there is NO reason to to start as such a high dose, why do it?

Why not discuss this with the doctor and if the doctor and patient cannot agree upon treatment, the patient should find another doctor. And IF an addict isn't taking the amount prescribed by his/her physician, what is being done with the extra Suboxone? It's a controlled substance to be taken as prescribed only when prescribed.

When I sought my second round of Suboxone treatment, I wanted to do everything that I could to show myself that I could not control my drug intake. I turned over my "extra" medication from my previous period of therapy. If you're the typical addict, you're holding onto your extras "just in case." Maybe there are addicts with more control and you're disposing of the pills that you're not taking. I wasn't able to do that. My disease has a death grip on me.

Now, why would you want to ingest more opiates than necessary to achieve the same goal?

It maximizes the potential of swapping one opiate for another.

I must disagree. Knowing what Suboxone is and knowing about its ceiling effect, I understand not only the similarities but the differences between bupe and other opiates/opioids. Because of the ceiling effect, there is LESS risk of someone abusing Sub when maintained at 16mg than at much lower doses. Much lower doses, however, afford better pain control for those taking Sub for pain management.

Again, this is just my opinion.

I appreciate and participate in sharing my E,S,&H. But, when it comes to drugs, this addict must rely upon her doctor's opinion.

I'm only one person and have lived only one life. Perhaps, some addicts find themselves in a stronger death grip of addiction than do other addicts. My addiction wants to squeeze the life out of me and my addiction starts with my thinking.

[lostbutterfly]

I must say, my taper dose of codeine now is so low (and has been for about a month) that I can't see the point of it. But like Christin, I'm all done managing my drugs, coz they always wind up managing me. So I'm just sticking to my script. To hell with my opinion on the matter. I have handed it over!!! I don't want to be in charge anymore.

Another benefit of sticking to a script and not a plan you concoct up yourself, is that you don't have to think about it. And to be freed from thinking about drugs - wow, what a miracle. There have been many days I've forgotten to take my evening dose, because they are just not on my mind. To me, that is the definition of freedom!

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by lostbutterfly

To hell with my opinion on the matter. I have handed it over!!! I don't want to be in charge anymore.

Every day, I try to make something like this be my mantra, LB. Boy! Pills have been a siren song to the two of us, have they not? I'm so glad to hear how well you are doing.

[kj3880]

I really like butterfly's post here. It is some real step three stuff. Good work!
Your recovery is shining!

Love,
KJ