when will it end???

[Timebuster]

Originally Posted by TexasMan

Not sure if everyone's heard of Stanton Peele but he's pretty well known in the counseling field:

The Basic Text: written by addicts, for addicts.

Ask Mr. Peele has he ever been in active addiction, or has experience withdrawals.

Enough said!!

Ivan

[alien22]

Even if you don't follow a twelve-step program, becoming familiar with, and practicing recovery concepts should prove helpful to any alcoholic or addict with a 'desire' to stop drinking or using. I have lots of recovery-related literature, and, while admittedly most of them are either aa or na books, there are general kind of self-help books that have proven to be helpful. It is easy to find fault in any type of 'program' if you are looking for it, but if you truly 'take what you need, and leave the rest', I think almost anyone could find these programs helpful. Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

[TexasMan]

Originally Posted by Timebuster

The Basic Text: written by addicts, for addicts.

Ask Mr. Peele has he ever been in active addiction, or has experience withdrawals.

Enough said!!

Ivan

Not quite sure what you're saying here? I guess the intent is to say that no one except someone who has been or is an addict will have enough knowledge to help someone else?

Sorry but I don't buy that. Most oncologists haven't had cancer themselves but are certainly qualified to help people who are. Most psych docs aren't crazy but routinely work with folks with mental problems and more.

If by "The Basic Text" you're referring to The Big Book, remember it was written in the late 1930's. We've discovered a few things since then.

[Vintersemestre]

Saying death is a definite endgame of persistent drug-abuse isn't really a sensible deterrent in the philosophical sense, since death is a universal absolute truth to anyone at all under any circumstances... I'm just musing. Telling me I'd lose all my teeth and ruin my pretty face would probably deter me more :P

[SteppingItUp]

While I hesitate to distract from the purpose of this thread, I hope that Jen will forgive me for not finding another way to address some of the things that were brought up in it. Jen, this is a good place, and no doubt you will find that there are a lot of people here who will support you on whatever path you choose to take in your journey toward recovery. I'm sure we're all thinking about you. Do come back and let us know how you're doing. Big hugs.

Now for a quick hop, skip, and a jump...

TexasMan, anything that helps an addict get clean, stay clean and lead a productive life is great news in my book. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who would argue with that. There are plenty of options out there, and I'm supportive of anything that works long-term. We haven't seen a new thread from you in the last couple of months, so I don't know if you've been able to stop using since then through a different method, for example through SMART and/or Peele's approach, etc., or if you just prefer their overall attitudes toward dealing with addiction. If they're working for you, I'd love to hear it. Although if you're still using...

Overall, however, considering that you don't know that the Basic Text is the core book of Narcotics Anonymous (as the Big Book is to AA), I do question your overall knowledge and experience with NA. With that said, I do think there are some significant issues in the way you're addressing the functionality or defects of 12-step programs as a whole (and BV's post helps to magnify a couple of very important problems with your arguments). If you don't like the approach of seeing addiction as a disease, you can always interpret it as dis-ease; I'm guessing you've had enough of that as a result of your addiction for you to be posting here. I would challenge you to visit a large number of different meetings to hear how many addicts credit NA with actually having saved their lives. No one makes them say anything of the sort; they say it because they believe it. I won't argue with them, I'll just take their word for it. Although death could be considered the end-all of the story of any living being, I think there are enough addicts who die as a result of their addictions to accept that it can have fatal consequences. I have also come across the same statistics regarding the number of people who stick with the program, but I see that more as an equation that ought to include willingness, which is harder to put into indisputable stats. We're on the same page with the idea that no matter what, the responsibility of any individual's recovery will ultimately land upon their own shoulders. I would suggest that if willingness, dedication or tenacity are lacking, a person would likely struggle with any approach to recovery.

By the way, I think SMART really does express an excellent approach toward dealing with addiction and alcoholism. If there were any face to face meetings here, I would definitely give it a try. By the way, SMART provides its own statement regarding 12-step programs SMART Recovery® - Introduction SMART vs. 12-Step Programs: At SMART we believe that each individual finds his own path to recovery. For some that may include traditional 12-step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) or Narcotics Anonymous (NA). While the SMART approach differs from AA and NA, it does not exclude them. Some SMART participants choose to attend AA or NA meetings when they cannot attend a SMART meeting. Some find that what they hear at AA or NA meetings helps them on their path to permanent recovery.

The link to Dr. Kern's site offers "The high-functioning drinkers 1 hour intervention to safer drinking from the comfort and privacy of your home or office" and claims to be "Shame-Free! Dogma-Free! Pressure-Free! Blame-Free!" Although for me to get the full experience of Dr. Kern's approach rather than just the ad, thus being able to judge it more appropriately, I would need to spend $375 on the Bridging Session (and another $125 to get a recording of that session). Then again, if it really works and it only takes someone an hour to start getting on the path to recovery, I think it would be an absolute bargain worth anyone's time. While I see the possibility of Kern's approach being more helpful to people with a mild to moderate drinking problem (i.e. with "problem drinkers" rather than full-blown alcoholics), say in the same way that Moderation Management works for some people (one difference, though, being that MM is non-profit), the only thing is that I'm not so sure that Dr. Kern intends for his program to be used towards "crack management" rather than crack abstinence.

If you'd like to bring up your concerns or provide data that credits one program with being superior to another, I'm sure we'd all be curious to see the research. Since the subject is leading this thread awry, though (and I am aware and feeling apologetic that my own post isn't helping with that) I think it might be a best to start a separate thread on the subject. Hell, if one program is better than another, I'd love to know why for my own recovery. It might also be interesting to learn more about how each of these things relate to your own battle with addiction. I do know that you wrote that you were willing to go the 12-step method just a couple of months ago through CA, so I'm wondering what has caused you to reject the methods of any and all 12-step programs since then. In any case, no matter what road you do take, I do most sincerely hope you're well and that whatever you choose is really working out for you. Hugs to you too.

[tyler]

Originally Posted by TexasMan

If by "The Basic Text" you're referring to The Big Book, remember it was written in the late 1930's. We've discovered a few things since then.

The "Basic Text" is NA's "version" of the Big Book and it was written in 1982 and has been revised since then.

BTW, I am not a "member" of any 12-step recovery program, however I recognise that they can be of great help to many people. To make the statement that, "to put it very plainly, 12 step programs don't work" only shows ignorence on your part. They may not work for some, but you can not deny the vast number of people who have been helped over the years by these programs.

[Timebuster]

Beautifully said Tyler.

[Learn2Live]

Hi. I'm new here. I probably "belong" more on the "Alcoholism" and "Friends and Family" postings though I have abused substances but they're not my drugs of choice (except cigarettes). Anyway, I read this string and wanted to put my two cents in. Hope ya'll don't mind.

First, Vintersemestre (nice name by the way, took me a minute or two before I got the translation): I liked your simple post about death being a universal truth for us all so maybe not so effective a "threat."

Second, I want to say to Jen32, try not to beat yourself up or be too sad. I know that's kind of a stupid thing to say given what you're going through but, what I've learned in my own Recovery, and that of so many friends and family members, is that When You're Ready, You're Ready. Something will click in your brain sometime soon, and you will know that "The End" has come. I know it's hard but it helps to try to think positive about yourself. Hey, you're doin' it!!!. You are not where you were before and you should be proud of yourself for that. You are in Recovery whether you're only making it a day, a week, a month, whatever. Feel good that you are thinking about these things whereas before you probably weren't really thinking about any of this or didn't even know that you should stop.

Here's my take: Recovery is a process, not something you can just obtain or "get". Try to think of it that way to help you see all the successes you HAVE had already! Recognize that even though you haven't stopped completely, you are learning every day about this monster.

Thanks for listening.