Conflicted

[monkey1]

Pardon the cross-forum post but I realized this is probably the place for this (originally posted in Newcomers)

Some of you may know that I haven't had a drink in 6 months, but I have been on narcotics for almost that long. I am an addict. I am addicted to my pain medication (i'm saying this more for my benefit). I developed a pretty good tolerance to them and then didn't have any for 4 days while the rx switched doctors - now, I do have an actual medical reason to take them so I was in hell's basement (pain + withdrawal). RX was written for a much lower dose than I had been taking - which was a good thing and a bad thing. Not enough to control the pain, but less ability to abuse. But I do anyway. My tolerance is heading back up and I'm doing anything I can to try to get high, this doesn't get me 'high' but it must do something to make me WANT it- I hate myself for this- i don't know why I keep trying. I've gone so far as to set up a connection for oxys.
Anyway I met with a new pain clinic today who doesn't trust drunks with pills (good on ya) but would provide me the patch. I left there shaking and almost in tears. I can't go back there, I would get myself in so much trouble the minute I got that patch.
I'm trying not to give in to that possibility. I am in a panic, I feel like I'm spinning out of control.
I need to get off these narcotics! I am scared out of my mind. I'm afraid to talk about it with any of my doctors. I'm afraid of being labeled a junkie, I'm afraid I AM a junkie. I'm afraid that if I stop I will be in agonizing pain (not from the withdrawals, but that chronic pain I have. S***

Shea

[Cherybaby66]

Hey Shea! I for one don't like the term "junkie"...but unfortunately, it applies to a lot of us. We're addicts...and so are you. There are other ways of managing chronic pain other than living on opiates. Have you spoke to a good pain management doc? And yes, what is making you crave is the fact that your brain is now hotwired to expect a certain amount of codeine a day. It's an addictive drug...and as you can see from the fact that you need to take more and more to get high...you have already built up quite a tolerance. It is going to get to the point where you aren't going to be able to manage your pain OR get high off the dosage you get. What then?

I was an opiate addict for a year and a half...taking 60 pills of percocet 19/650's in just a couple of days. It was a very expensive habit too. Didn't care. Put my family into financial turmoil over my habit because I lost my job. Didn't care about anything or anyone if they couldn't get me my drugs. Nothing else matters. You seem to be in that boat right now...and you are heading for rocky waters, my friend.

I quit, cold turkey, about 54 days ago. I just had to get away from it. My husband has chronic pain issues, like you do...although, he doesn't abuse. He takes his pills only when he needs them...a lot less than what is prescribed to him. Do you have someone you can give your pain pills to that can dole them out to you as needed instead of you possessing the bottle? Sometimes that is a great help.

You have to be honest with your doctors, Shea. And yourself. That's the first step toward getting clean...being honest with yourself. You have a problem that well oversteps the need of just managing your pain. You need to get a support team on your side...and yes, that will include doctors, friends and family and a good old fashioned NA meeting as often as you can go. Of course, you have this forum too...which is a good start. The support of this forum has gotten me through some very tough times in the middle of the night.

Good luck to you, Shea. It's not going to be easy...but it can be done. You have to WANT it. Really want it...and take your life back.

[Stagebear]

Well, perhaps better to be labeled a junkie than be labeled with a toe tag in the morgue...

However, that said, whether or not you feel labeled, you have to tell your docs. Keeping that avenue open, at least for me, would spell disaster.

And I also have chronic pain and am a cancer survivor. You wanna hear sucky? I can't even take ibuprofen b/c I am on blood thinners. But it is what it is and I am where I am because of my own bad decisions.

So, again, tell someone. Going at this alone is not easy.

[tbeit]

Hi DShea I am also a drunk (no alcohol for 19 yrs) with pain issues.I was put on the patch because of less abuse yea ok.By the time I detoxed this time I was on 150 mcg of fentynal with 600 mcgs for breakthrough pain.My opinion is opiates make your pain WORSE.My pain is at a 2-3 now without opiates it was at 6-8 on them. 18 months ago I would have said "I can never live without opiates my pain is too bad" that was my disease talking.It took me about 2 weeks to come off all the opiates with the help of Suboxone short term.Then about 6 months too feel human again.
Today I am on vacation this week so far I have gone fishing,cleaned my gutters,went bike riding with my son and alot of pool time which is a blessing I havent been in the pool in 5 years.One other thing that has changed is my depression issues are 1/10 of what they were.I'm on an anti-depressant which actually works because I'm not mucking everything up with all the drugs.

Oh yea I'm Tom and I'm definetly a JUNKIE

[change4penny]

tbeit....I agree with you 100%. I have rhematoid arthritis and before rehab, I was taking thirty, 10mg of hydro or oxycodones per day. I think because of being labled a 'chronic pain' sufferer, I justified the addiction.
I'm 9 months clean now, and yes, I have pain. But guess what?...I can take Motrin and it actually helps!

Penny

[bvaljalo]

Hey Shea ...

First question ... are we just talking about 6 months total in your life you've been taking opioids? And how much, and what, have you been taking during the time you've been on them.

2nd question: I'm curious, why does switching from pills to the patch sound like such a bad idea to you? If you use them properly, they actually aren't that bad an option ... fentanyl isn't particularly euphoric, esp. in patch form. I mean, assuming you have terrible pain and legitimately need opioids, they strike me as a reasonable compromise.

One last point ... a prior history of alcohol abuse, or of course being an alcoholic, makes taking opioid pain killers EXTREMELY risky. I can't even TELL you how many times I've heard alcoholics in 'the rooms' say that they relapsed because of prescription pain killers, either going on to become addicted to opioids, or back on the sauce, or both.

So try not to feel too bad about what's gone down here. It happens, A LOT, and the fact is you are, in all likelihood, genetically PREDISPOSED to problems with alcohol and opioids (these problems really go hand in hand, perhaps more than any other combination of drugs out there), it's not because you're a bad guy/gal.

This being said, what do YOU think you need to do about this issue? What does your actively addicted mind tell you is 'a good plan' here? Just curious

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by Cherybaby66

There are other ways of managing chronic pain other than living on opiates. Have you spoke to a good pain management doc?

My pain management guy is the one currently prescribing the meds. He also has me on gabapentin - which doesn't do a damned thing for the pain but does make me feel a bit drunk. I don't like him. I went to check out another practice yesterday - they're the ones who were proposing the fentanyl patch. I've got an appointment for an experimental neurological treatment next month. The hospital I am going to has a pain center, I might try to get an appointment with them.

Originally Posted by Cherybaby66

And yes, what is making you crave is the fact that your brain is now hotwired to expect a certain amount of codeine a day. It's an addictive drug...and as you can see from the fact that you need to take more and more to get high...you have already built up quite a tolerance. It is going to get to the point where you aren't going to be able to manage your pain OR get high off the dosage you get. What then?

See this is where my stupidity knows no bounds, I set up a connect for oxys because I don't get prescribed enough dilaudid anymore and unless my pain guy ups the rx, I'd need to look elsewhere. I also assume the oxys would get me high in a way the dilaudid does not. When nothing works... I honestly don't know. And don't want to know. I truly do not want to get to that point, I want to not want the drugs.

Originally Posted by Cherybaby66

Do you have someone you can give your pain pills to that can dole them out to you as needed instead of you possessing the bottle? Sometimes that is a great help.

No, unfortunately, I will never share this with my wife or anyone in my family.

Originally Posted by Cherybaby66

You have to be honest with your doctors, Shea. And yourself. That's the first step toward getting clean...being honest with yourself. You have a problem that well oversteps the need of just managing your pain. You need to get a support team on your side...and yes, that will include doctors, friends and family and a good old fashioned NA meeting as often as you can go. Of course, you have this forum too...which is a good start. The support of this forum has gotten me through some very tough times in the middle of the night.

Good luck to you, Shea. It's not going to be easy...but it can be done. You have to WANT it. Really want it...and take your life back.

Thanks Chery. I appreciate your response. I am being honest with myself. I know I am an addict. It is the being honest with others that becomes a roadblock.

I am very grateful that SR exists and such supportive, caring folks gather here.

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by Stagebear

Well, perhaps better to be labeled a junkie than be labeled with a toe tag in the morgue...

However, that said, whether or not you feel labeled, you have to tell your docs. Keeping that avenue open, at least for me, would spell disaster.

And I also have chronic pain and am a cancer survivor. You wanna hear sucky? I can't even take ibuprofen b/c I am on blood thinners. But it is what it is and I am where I am because of my own bad decisions.

So, again, tell someone. Going at this alone is not easy.

Ok, I'll give ya that, Bear, I don't want to end up dead - at least not yet.

I gotta do something. I'm trying to work up the cajones to call my NP today and skirt around the issue until she figures it out (she knows me a little too well now) and then admit nothing. No really though, I am trying to work myself up to talk to her about it. I can't talk to my pain guy about it, at least not yet. He would stop prescribing immediately if he knew what I was doing with it.

Glad to hear that you beat the cancer. How long have you been cancer-free? That does suck that you can't even take ib, what about tylenol? What do you do for your pain?

I did tell someone... all y'all. Its a start.

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by tbeit

Hi DShea I am also a drunk (no alcohol for 19 yrs) with pain issues.I was put on the patch because of less abuse yea ok.By the time I detoxed this time I was on 150 mcg of fentynal with 600 mcgs for breakthrough pain.My opinion is opiates make your pain WORSE.My pain is at a 2-3 now without opiates it was at 6-8 on them. 18 months ago I would have said "I can never live without opiates my pain is too bad" that was my disease talking.It took me about 2 weeks to come off all the opiates with the help of Suboxone short term.Then about 6 months too feel human again.

19 years, man, that is awesome! I had 3 years once.
I would only be on the 50mcg patch and they would give me nothing for breakthrough pain. I would also only be prescribed the patch for 3 months stepping down to the 25 and then off and tough titty said the kitty if I hadn't become pain-free or pain-reduced by then, there would be no more. Right now I just about double every month., I can't see moving backward. Also, my fear with the patch is that I know I would be eating it, smoking it, or trying to make it release quicker. I cannot be trusted.
That is interesting that your pain is less without the opiates. I was just talking with one of my gastro's the other day and she was discussing the increase of pain-receptors in response to opiod use.
I hear/read a lot about Suboxone. I may add that to my talk with my NP, if I can get up the courage to actually call her.

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by change4penny

tbeit....I agree with you 100%. I have rhematoid arthritis and before rehab, I was taking thirty, 10mg of hydro or oxycodones per day. I think because of being labled a 'chronic pain' sufferer, I justified the addiction.
I'm 9 months clean now, and yes, I have pain. But guess what?...I can take Motrin and it actually helps!

Penny

I definitely have been justifying this because of the pain. I'm glad the motrin works for you now, that's great! Earlier on, I did try not taking the opiates and tried tylenol (I can't take ib because of the damage I did drinking) and it just wasn't cutting it. I kept ending up in the ER.
Congrats on the 9 months, that is terrific!

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by bvaljalo

Hey Shea ...

First question ... are we just talking about 6 months total in your life you've been taking opioids? And how much, and what, have you been taking during the time you've been on them.

No, Ive abused them in the past (vikes, percs, demerol) for about 5 years total. I haven't had any in about 13 years. Alcohol was really my DOC (25 years) until I had to quit 6 mos ago. Currently I am taking 16mgs a day of dilaudid. I snort it or crush and dissolve it under my tongue to bypass the processing in the liver. I had been taking 30mgs/d for about 3 months and 15mg/d before that until my primary turned it over to my pain guy and he cut the dose back to 8mgs/d, which left me in pain with almost no relief. I've been extremely lucky that he didn't balk at that increase. Somehow, I don't see another one in my future.

Originally Posted by bvaljalo

2nd question: I'm curious, why does switching from pills to the patch sound like such a bad idea to you? If you use them properly, they actually aren't that bad an option ... fentanyl isn't particularly euphoric, esp. in patch form. I mean, assuming you have terrible pain and legitimately need opioids, they strike me as a reasonable compromise.

Because I know I won't use it properly, and it is a very limited time that it would be available to me. I've discussed switching to long-acting opiates with my current pain doc and he doesn't think I should be on any narcotics at all so he won't continue it if I leave his practice to do that and then go back to him in 3 months.

Originally Posted by bvaljalo

One last point ... a prior history of alcohol abuse, or of course being an alcoholic, makes taking opioid pain killers EXTREMELY risky. I can't even TELL you how many times I've heard alcoholics in 'the rooms' say that they relapsed because of prescription pain killers, either going on to become addicted to opioids, or back on the sauce, or both.

Yes, I know. All of my doctors regularly remind me of this fact. I am sincerely afraid that I will pick up again soon, whether I stop using or not. It is a very strong urge, even after these 6 mos. Basically, I am in relapse as far as alcohol is concerned - I just haven't had a drink yet.

Originally Posted by bvaljalo

This being said, what do YOU think you need to do about this issue? What does your actively addicted mind tell you is 'a good plan' here? Just curious

I likely should to go to rehab. That is not going to happen. So, I need to figure out a way to manage my pain and get off the pills. My actively addicted mind does not have any good plans. My actively addicted mind wants to get my rx refilled, get some oxys and hide in the bedroom for a while. That's not right either, though. I'm going to try to call my NP and maybe talk to her about this. I may hit an NA meeting during lunch tomorrow.

[tbeit]

the patch is that I know I would be eating it, smoking it, or trying to make it release quicker. I cannot be trusted.


DShea DONT ***& with those patches.I almost died my 10 yo saved my life and now I have to live with that.The medic hit me with an opiate blocker I through them out and slapped a new patch on and started sucking on a Actiq.My wife and kid sat me down the next day and we agreed this was nuts.Went to a Bupe clinic that week and its been a hard uphill fight since.Its way better now but not perfect.I didnt think my family knew but come on thats a joke anyone who lives with yoiu knows weather you want to believe it or not.Its time to live you can do this your worth it

[Stagebear]

In all honesty D'Shea, you've been given honest answers and some great suggestions. You sort of dispute the best of them, failing to be honest with anyone who can help you more directly.
So, honestly, how do you expect to get and/or stay clean?

[Dee74]

I've gotta go with the Bear, D - if you won't speak to those most able to help you, we both know where this is likely gonna end up, man.

D

[bvaljalo]

Hmmm ... well, if you're down to 8mg/day of dilaudid from 30mgs before, then you're heading in the right direction. However, it doesn't sound like you are weaning by choice, nor does it sound like you'd be able to get your dose much lower on your own accord.

And getting off of pretty much any amount of dillies is a frickin B I T C H, that is for damn sure.

Have you considered buprenorphine (aka Subs) therapy? I used a 7 month taper on that stuff to get myself off of a 240-400mg/day oxycontin (sniffing them) habit, and when I finally stepped off the subs at 2mg/day, it wasn't that terrible. It was do-able, esp. with my mom watching over me and no keys, no phone, no money, no credit, nowhere to live, and no life in general.

Also, gabapentin aka neurontin is pretty handy when you're going through withdrawals ... if they aren't helping you now anyways, you might wanna stash some for later

[emmer]

The best I can offer is H.O.W.

Honesty
openminded-ness
willingness

If you work a program with these 3 things, you'll be way ahead of most people.

It took me years to be honest and willing and openminded.

[monkey1]

In all honesty D'Shea, you've been given honest answers and some great suggestions. You sort of dispute the best of them, failing to be honest with anyone who can help you more directly.
So, honestly, how do you expect to get and/or stay clean?

I've gotta go with the Bear, D - if you won't speak to those most able to help you, we both know where this is likely gonna end up, man.

The best I can offer is H.O.W.

Honesty
openminded-ness
willingness

If you work a program with these 3 things, you'll be way ahead of most people.

It took me years to be honest and willing and openminded.

I guess I have some more 1st step work to do, Bear/D. I've been reading the step work links that were provided in a different thread. I know your not supposed to work it alone, and I'm not actually working the steps, but trying to drive myself forward into this. I'm really not shutting down the advice and suggestions I've received here, I guess I just need some sort of push, not sure if that can be me just yet.

emmer - I do hope to get there. I'm being very closed-minded, unwilling and dishonest with those close to me, right now. I see that. I just don't know how to get ahead of myself. I'll be working on it.
Thanks again.

[monkey1]

Originally Posted by bvaljalo

Hmmm ... well, if you're down to 8mg/day of dilaudid from 30mgs before, then you're heading in the right direction. However, it doesn't sound like you are weaning by choice, nor does it sound like you'd be able to get your dose much lower on your own accord.

And getting off of pretty much any amount of dillies is a frickin B I T C H, that is for damn sure.

Have you considered buprenorphine (aka Subs) therapy? I used a 7 month taper on that stuff to get myself off of a 240-400mg/day oxycontin (sniffing them) habit, and when I finally stepped off the subs at 2mg/day, it wasn't that terrible. It was do-able, esp. with my mom watching over me and no keys, no phone, no money, no credit, nowhere to live, and no life in general.

Also, gabapentin aka neurontin is pretty handy when you're going through withdrawals ... if they aren't helping you now anyways, you might wanna stash some for later

Sorry Bvaljalo, I wrote that a little backward - I'm currently on 16 mgs/d. But 8 or 16 probably makes little difference. I am considering sub therapy, more and more. I keep toggling back and forth. I want to quit/why would I want to quit. I want to want to quit, but I'm just not there yet, I guess. My disease keeps calling -that siren song. I just hope I don't have to jump off that cliff to get them message.

Thanks for the info on the alternative use for the neurontin. I did not know that. I've been reading more about it since you posted it, I'll put some aside.

Thanks for taking the time.

[alien22]

I can definately relate to your seemingly obstinant stance on complete sobriety DShea. I have been fighting those who would like to help for years. Not to say that you are 'fighting' any of the people on this board and thread who are offering their advice, but I can see that a piece of you doesn't want to 'deal' with the pain on your own. Remember what was said about pain tolerance and the inevitable tolerance (sry, on iPod and no quotes?!). My advice is to suck it up and admit that you can't go near anything euphoric ( if this is indeed the case).