Barely a week later and surprise surprise

[Vintersemestre]

Barely a week has passed since I got my original prescription for Oxycontin 2x20mgs daily (which was inexplicably upped to 2x40mgs daily, besides the point).

Here is a list of symptoms I experienced daily and relentlessly prior to taking my first one many years ago and after attempting to stop. All of these symptoms are now gone, as they stayed gone while I was on the same dosage for four years prior this unnecessary endeavour of misguided temperance.

-Constant fatigue
-Recurrent flu-like symptoms
-Hoarseness of the voice
-Frequent tremor and trembling
-Inexplicable coughing
-Night sweats (soaked sheets, every night, all night)
-Odd overall body-temperature fluctuations, moreso in the extremities
-Infrequent heart palpitations
-Intermittent episodes of dry eyes/watery eyes
-Increased thirst
-Severe headaches in the morning
-Muscle twitching
-Chronic lower back pain from multiple injuries
-Joint pain (mostly in my knees)
-Chest tightness and pain
-Lightheadedness or feeling "spaced out"
-Inability to think clearly ("brain fog")
-Infrequent (on the average bi-weekly, so don't know if these have stopped yet, but i suspect they will) blackouts
-Verigo (caused by the SSRI I was taking)
-Brain zaps (caused by trying to stop the SSRI I was taking)
-Tingling sensations in my scalp
-Extreme sensitivity to bright light
-Noise intolerance
-Difficulty judging distances/lack of depth perception
-Everything looking two dimensional
-Inability to quickly change focus on what I'm looking at
-Ocular pressure and pain
-Frequent urination
-Stomach ache and abdominal cramps
-Intermittent nausea with occasional vomiting
-Frequent diarrhea
-Bloating and general gassiness
-Cravings for unhealthy food
-Dry scalp is improving slowly
-Excessive sleeping
-Poor quality of sleep
-Difficulty falling asleep
-Vivid and disturbing dreams and nightmares
-Depressed mood
-Suicidal thoughts
-Self-mutilation
-Frequent crying
-Anxiety and fear with no obvious cause
-Irritability/overreaction
-Causeless outbursts of rage
-Mood swings
-Dental pain
-Using the wrong word in sentences, talking slowly in a befuddled manner
-Difficulty expressing ideas in words
-Impaired concentration
-Easily distractable
-Time distortion
-Inability to perceive event continuity
-Difficulty understanding or concentrating on what I read
-Difficulty making decisions
-Difficulty integrating information

And here is a list of medication that did absolutely nothing to help any of these symptoms (besides the benzos for anxiety):
-Prozac
-Paxil
-Effexor
-Zoloft
-Celexa
-Lexapro
-Wellbutrin
-Luvox
-Remeron
-Elavil
-Vivactil
-Nardil
-Parnate
-Seroquel
-Zyprexa
-Bromocriptine
-Ropinrole
-Clonazepam
-Valium
-Xanax
-Ativan
-Levodopa
-5-HTP
-Omega-3
-B-12
-B-Comples Vitamin
-SAM-e
-St. John's Wort
-Ginko Biloba
-Ginseng
-Tylenol
-Advil
-Aspirin
-Arthrotec
-Lodine
-Mobicox
-Dolobid
-Relifex
-Cyclobenzaprine
-Robaxacet
-Tramadol
-Codeine
-Methadone
-Buprenorphine (with or without Naloxone)

Explore all possibilities.

[lostbutterfly]

Glad you are feeling better Vinter. I could probably get a doctor in Harley street to do this for me, but I couldn't afford it!!

They have done an experiment here in the UK, very limited. Heroin addicts given unlimited access to pharmaceutical heroin. One woman now runs her own magazine, beautiful office space, people working for her, everything.

She still shoots up, but she obviously functions just fine. Not spending all her time and energy trying to score. And she looks great. Maybe one day, hey?

In the mean time, I'll have to keep walking my little path to AA meetings and back again.

[whiskerkissed]

Originally Posted by lostbutterfly

In the mean time, I'll have to keep walking my little path to AA meetings and back again.

In the meantime?? You mean you would actually look forward to be a functioning active heroine user?? Holy cow Lost!! Keep walking your little path to AA...lol...

Vinter - that's a pretty extensive list you've drummed up!! I haven't read any of your other posts, but do I get that you're still on an oxy regimen? That's just what it sounds like by this post here.

[EscapedOC]

Excuses not to quit are many. My addictive brain will tell me anything I want to believe.
Sober 5 months and 3 days today.

[Vintersemestre]

I'm prescribed this legitimately for a disease... It's not an "excuse" not to quit and I'm not an addict, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the exact same amount for four years and never have gotten high once. Life isn't always black and white and I find your generic dismissive response rather ignorant.

[whiskerkissed]

My DH is on a pain management program with very mild narcotics. He's very good at being able to follow instructions on them. ME on the other hand would fail MISERABLY at following instruction!!

I do have an honest question for you though, Vinter. Might you not get high from your dose because you've simply become adjusted to them? Say you're at a level in your regimen you're just used to it? I've never taken oxys...thank goodness. I'm afraid I would do extremely bad things with them. I'm a competitive user - even against myself.

[lostbutterfly]

I'm walking whisker, I'm walking!!

I just like the idea of people being able to get their lives together because they are not being ostracised for their drug addiction. It was a very heart warming story.

Not saying that that is what I want for myself. I just want a bit of peace and serenity, just for a little while, each day. Pills can't give it to me anymore, so I'm learning another way!!!

[Vintersemestre]

I don't know why they don't get me high, they never did.

[ian_g]

I'm a little confused...so you are saying you aren't an addict yet you sought out a soberrecovery site? I read some of your older post Vine and from what it said about your drug use and what not, it seemed to indicate that you had come to terms that you were abusing drugs. Why the sudden change? Every time that I tried to use self-control, I inevitably fell right back into the pattern. If you never had a problem with drug use why seek out such a site. Telling individuals who are alcoholics and drug addicts (who have come to terms with it) that OCs are the only thing that is helping you is clearly not beneficial. I didn't want to even give a reply but I've come across a few of your post and they seem to promote drug use and no much more. If taking Oxys works for you God bless you. Many of us have lost the power of choice in the matter. We have lost the privilege. Honestly all I'm saying is telling people to explore all options who are alcoholics/drug addicts, probably isn't the best means of action. I do see however that you intent is clearly not to be harmful and I respect you trying to give guidance. It is just that many of us are unable to take a certain dose. That being said, once the allergy kicks in, the phenomena of craving starts, the power to choose if one uses or doesn't use is no longer in one's control. But thanks Vine and I am happy to see that you feel better. Please don't feel as though I'm being an ******* lol. I do like your posts where you talk about meditation...you seem to be pretty adept in terms of spirituality-esque area.

[EscapedOC]

Sorry. Maybe I guessed wrong to think someone in a substance abuse forum under a website called Sober Recovery might be trying to get clean. My bad.
That's what I'm here for anyway. Good luck.
Im new here anyway...5 months clean.

[emmer]

I think we have to be careful (here on SR) when suggesting that opiates are a choice (even in your own life)for treating depression or anxiety; just like we wouldn't go onto the AA site and say ,that, a drink at the end of the day is good for the nerves.

Many of use here at SR ,have lost fellow SR members and FTF friends because of opiates.

I don't mean any offence to you Vin........... it's just that there are people here that are stuggling hard with addiction.

[Vintersemestre]

I sought out this web-site and attempted to stop because I was on under the negative moralistic spell of the prohibition hive-mind and was pushed into stopping by family members when my life was going fine.

What benefit did I get out of it? I lost my job, am currently completely broke, engaged in self-mutilation, fell into my usual horrifying psychotic anxious depression, got all of the symptoms described above, aggravated my back injury by being too spaced out on Effexor to see the patch of ice I was about to slip on, became suicidal, was hospitalized twice... need to know more?

Of course I'm promoting their use for treatment of mental illness that have not responded to any other treatment because they work 98% of the time in the people they're tried on who were previously DESPERATELY ill and are now leading happy, productive lives. To not share my own experience would be the equivalent of keeping the cure for cancer to myself.

My posts here are just the beginning of what I'm starting. Once my wife is cured of her so-called "bipolar disorder" with the same treatment I'm receiving I'm starting not only a web-site dedicated to research of opioids to treat neurosis, but a legally-recognized foundation. I'm not letting the goons at Health Canada dictate to people who could otherwise be living happily tomorrow morning that they have to suffer electro-shock "treatment" and imbibing neurotoxic "medications" before new research is tried on them.

A perfect example that is being used more and more often in the United States (the prohibition mecca), is Buprenorphine as a mood stabilizer in people with what psychiatrists call "bipolar disorder". Not only has it shown to be more effective than lithium (not to mention it doesn't slowly kill you) at controlling mania, it cuts through depression, something which lithium tends to make worse. Want to talk about "psychiatric magic bullets"? There's a perfect example of one.

I understand that most of the people here do not benefit at all from the use of opiates - our good friend Bval is a perfect example of someone who abused them and recovered (he didn't NEED them) - but I strongly suspect that a small handful of the folks here - and I'm not going to name names - may discover at some point that it truly is "God's own medicine", and I hope they discover this before it's too late.

I'm not saying this to be rude, I appreciate that you guys can tell where I'm coming from, but if anyone finds that they're being triggered or are offended or upset by my posts, then they just don't have to read them. That's the freedom our boys are dying for.

[whiskerkissed]

Originally Posted by Vintersemestre

I'm not saying this to be rude, I appreciate that you guys can tell where I'm coming from, but if anyone finds that they're being triggered or are offended or upset by my posts, then they just don't have to read them. That's the freedom our boys are dying for.

However - and it's a simple observation from my own position - many of us addicts are obsessive/compulsive. I can't take a pill without using up the bottle. I can't NOT read a post if someone tells me I shouldn't or that it could be offensive or a trigger. Easier said than done my friend. I like painkillers very much - or rather - my disease does! My committee that meets regularly in my head just waits for new excuses to use on me to get me to pick up again. Using opioids as a treatment for disorders my brain can tell me I have when I might not is dangerous. I'm no hypochondriac - but I've lied to the doctor before.

On the flipside - it's no different than suggesting narcotics of other kinds to treat other illnesses. Opioids are still used in pain management programs - even for addicts. The trick is to use them only as prescribed - or less. For myself - it would mean someone having control of the medication and giving it to me at the proper times. Hopefully, one day the program I'm trying to work and live by will enable me to use the tools of NA to where I don't have to count on anyone but what I've learned and an HP to do the next right thing. That ain't now!!

Promoting the use of opioids in the drug abuse portion of the forum might be a bad idea, but there may be other parts of the forum that would be more appropriate for what you have to offer. Of course - this is not up to me - just a simple observation from someone who still has a raging obsession with the use of drugs and a disease just LOOKING for an excuse to keep adding ammunition to it's armory...

[SelfSeeking]

Well, crap, vinter, some people drink half a glass of wine for the "healthy heart" reasons. I'm not about to go to an AA meeting and tell the folks there who just had a heart attack they should get started on that. I think you're doing the equivalent.

[emmer]

WK , I too have lied to my doctor, in fact so many times that even when I dont want anything (dope) I still find myself in the middle of trying to scam something.

I guess its the addict side of my brain,scamming,scamming,scamming .............and like you,looking for any excuse to use.

I was going to say~ destrucive thinking dies hard ,but I guess for the addict it never really dies.

[Chino]

Hi, I'm from the F&F of substance abusers and I've been reading your posts with interest. This topic reminded me of something I read a while back in this forum, about how some recovering addicts will always need a maintenance program.

The reason stated at the time had to do with addicts and chronic pain, along with addicts who have done permanent damage to their endorphin systems. Another group was mentioned, a very small group, of people who were born with an endorphin deficiency.

In an effort to understand this disease and out of some fear, I asked my RAD's doctor about the last one and he said it's called endogenous opioid deficiency. He also told me Methadone and Buprenorphine can successfully treat it.

[Jules62]

There's a very big difference between a doctor recommending drugs for people so they can re-balance their lives and feel 'normal' than you, a self confessed addict, posting on a recovery board and saying opiates work for you?

I'm sorry but the boundaries here are more than a little fuzzy and frankly-I think that while it may be 'working for you' there is no real justification for what you're doing unsupervised.You're using.That's all.And it's not going to lead you anywhere but to hell.Have you read what people have posted to you here so far?Not one person has said-'Oh yeah-opiates-what a great idea!' No one here has had a 'good' experience and I wonder what makes you think you will be different?You won't be.It might work for now-but it won't last.

You speak of freedom?

I'd like to see you free of the hold these drugs have on you.

You're fooling yourself.And it's sad to watch.

[lostbutterfly]

Hi Vinter. I'm probably not going to read this thread anymore, coz it does give addict voice ammunition, but that is thru no fault of yours, just my reaction to it.

But you are welcome on mine!! I'm just so glad you have found something, because what you describe is a truly awful thing to suffer from. If I suffered from the same debilitating illness, I would be relieved to know there was one thing in the world that could take me out of that hell.

I just remind myself, that while I suffer from the blahs, I have never experienced anything close to what you have in the depression stakes. So I can't justify using pills for myself.

I remember your posts when you gave up, and I could feel the black despair in them. And I just couldn't believe you were managing to get thru one day feeling like that.

Luv lb xxx

[lugnut]

Makes me want to go and get my head scanned lol..

I think if it works for ya and you dont "overdue" it. and I mean take them as prescribed no abusing and the docs ok with that then more power to you. But if you find yourself abusing them and taking more to "feel Better" then you might have to reevaluate things! Although science does seem to back up your claims!!!
This was just from 1990 so I am guessing they have came in great strides from then. But it is a United States thing on not to hand them out (as you said the prohibition thing) for that.

A clinical trial conducted at Harvard Medical School in the mid-1990s demonstrated that a majority of unipolar non-psychotic patients with major depression refractory to conventional thymoleptic antidepressants could be successfully treated with buprenorphine.[13] See opioids for other (predominantly favorable) experiments with buprenorphine and other opioids for psychological relief. However, psychological distress is currently not an approved indication for the use of any opioid, and legally it falls in to a "grey zone".[14][15] In the United States, the doctor still needs the proper DEA licensing under the Drug Addiction Treatment Act of 2000 to prescribe Subutex or Suboxone for opioid addiction/dependence.

[Shellslove]

Hi Vinter...I too have been lurking your threads, intrigued by the idea that you are using opiates to treat not only chronic pain, but depression. I think it is a novel idea and one I have pondered many times in my quest to find relief from my chronic, relentless depression and debilitating anxiety. After thorough research and experience, I do truly feel that some people are chemically deficient (for lack of a better term) and that opioids may be able to fill the 'hole' that is lacking what a normal functioning brain should come equipped with.

A/ds (I too have tried them all) have never worked for me either --- and actually, neither have benzos. Quite frankly, you are so lucky to have a dr that is willing to work with you on this theory and test it. I also had a dr who proposed this theory to me and suggested opiates for depression. (I am currently on subs, but it is temporary as a means of retraining my brain of it's addictive nature) I was the one who actually shot down the idea (SO DIFFCULT) due to what many others here have said...I am an addict. There is no way I am going to take only what is prescribed, following dosage and time...put a bottle of pills in front of me and they'll be gone within hrs. Even with a highly regulated and monitored dose -- my rationale goes right out the door and I want more, more, more. I just couldn't do it--- which is unfortunate, b/c I too would love to test the theory of opiates for depression.

Interestingly, as I was reading the post where you listed all your symptoms that have subsided since using the opiates, I noticed these are the exact same symptoms I experience when going through opiate w/ds--- coincidence? You said you recall that these symptoms were occuring for you prior to opiate use as well -- is it possible that the time before opiates has been exaggerated in your memory, b/c it's blurred together with the awful experiences you may have felt when trying to come off the opiates? Just an idea. It's usually the hardest times that stick out in my mind as the most prominent. Anyway, like Lost, this struck the addict voice in me and 'rationalized' away my addictive tendencies....hey, I need opiates to be normal too!! I probably shouldn't read this thread anymore either ;/

Please do not get me wrong, I think you are onto something here Vinter...and if it works for you and you can keep it in check, I think that's wonderful --- but I do agree that it may be dangerous to bring this idea into a forum where active and recovering addicts are trying to get off drugs The addict in us will always rationalize, and this gives the 'addict voice' as LB puts it, the perfect excuse.

[Vintersemestre]

Originally Posted by Jules62

There's a very big difference between a doctor recommending drugs for people so they can re-balance their lives and feel 'normal' than you, a self confessed addict, posting on a recovery board and saying opiates work for you?

I'm sorry but the boundaries here are more than a little fuzzy and frankly-I think that while it may be 'working for you' there is no real justification for what you're doing unsupervised.You're using.That's all.And it's not going to lead you anywhere but to hell.Have you read what people have posted to you here so far?Not one person has said-'Oh yeah-opiates-what a great idea!' No one here has had a 'good' experience and I wonder what makes you think you will be different?You won't be.It might work for now-but it won't last.

You speak of freedom?

I'd like to see you free of the hold these drugs have on you.

You're fooling yourself.And it's sad to watch.

Thanks, mom. You're right and the pharmacist, psychiatrist and three neurologists are wrong. Is that it?

[Vintersemestre]

Originally Posted by Shellslove

Hi Vinter...I too have been lurking your threads, intrigued by the idea that you are using opiates to treat not only chronic pain, but depression. I think it is a novel idea and one I have pondered many times in my quest to find relief from my chronic, relentless depression and debilitating anxiety. After thorough research and experience, I do truly feel that some people are chemically deficient (for lack of a better term) and that opioids may be able to fill the 'hole' that is lacking what a normal functioning brain should come equipped with.

A/ds (I too have tried them all) have never worked for me either --- and actually, neither have benzos. Quite frankly, you are so lucky to have a dr that is willing to work with you on this theory and test it. I also had a dr who proposed this theory to me and suggested opiates for depression. (I am currently on subs, but it is temporary as a means of retraining my brain of it's addictive nature) I was the one who actually shot down the idea (SO DIFFCULT) due to what many others here have said...I am an addict. There is no way I am going to take only what is prescribed, following dosage and time...put a bottle of pills in front of me and they'll be gone within hrs. Even with a highly regulated and monitored dose -- my rationale goes right out the door and I want more, more, more. I just couldn't do it--- which is unfortunate, b/c I too would love to test the theory of opiates for depression.

Interestingly, as I was reading the post where you listed all your symptoms that have subsided since using the opiates, I noticed these are the exact same symptoms I experience when going through opiate w/ds--- coincidence? You said you recall that these symptoms were occuring for you prior to opiate use as well -- is it possible that the time before opiates has been exaggerated in your memory, b/c it's blurred together with the awful experiences you may have felt when trying to come off the opiates? Just an idea. It's usually the hardest times that stick out in my mind as the most prominent. Anyway, like Lost, this struck the addict voice in me and 'rationalized' away my addictive tendencies....hey, I need opiates to be normal too!! I probably shouldn't read this thread anymore either ;/

Please do not get me wrong, I think you are onto something here Vinter...and if it works for you and you can keep it in check, I think that's wonderful --- but I do agree that it may be dangerous to bring this idea into a forum where active and recovering addicts are trying to get off drugs The addict in us will always rationalize, and this gives the 'addict voice' as LB puts it, the perfect excuse.

I have never once told anyone to self-medicate... I have doctors looking after me and a pharmacist keeps close track on all of my pills. She told me the second more than five turn up missing I'm cut off, but that won't happen because as I've stated before, I had been on them for four years without once upping my dosage.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't really have an "addict voice", so I can't really know what it feels like. I feel justified in sharing this information, on the other hand.

Oh, and in regards to the symptoms checklist - good observation. But no, I've been experiencing this since the age of eight. I've been actively documenting it since I was fourteen, several years before I had ever had an opiate.

[Shellslove]

Hey, if it works for you, it works for you - no judgment about that. You seem to have gone through it all to get to this point and are being supervised by what sounds like a slew of drs and medical professionals who know what they are doing. If you are happy now and you've found that opiates have led to that satisfaction, then so be it. IMO, the reason most addicts turn to recovery is b/c the addiction and DOC has taken over their life and changed it for the worse...seems like it is the opposite in your case, so more power to you. I still stand by my opinion that sharing this idea in a forum where people with the some of the same habits that have changed your life for the better have ruined theirs may not be the best idea...but freedom of speech is a wonderful thing!

[finallyclean08]

I truly think that it comes down to quality of life not quantity. Would you rather live out the rest of your days in a dark depressing dungeoun, locked inside your own soul and not being able to claw your way out? Im an addict just like everyone else. But I too have suffered from depression since the age of 6 or even before that. I don't remember a time in my life ever truly being happy. I can't say that I would ever go back to opiates though they did make me feel great. But if the depression Im feeling now would go away and the doctor told me it was ok to do then I may consider it. If anti depressants aren't working, counselling isn't working, even ECT doesn't work permanently, what else is there? I get it I truly do Vinter.

That doesn't mean that Im going to go back to opiates though. Im gonna try and see how long I feel this crappy for first and see how long I can hold on. I know what depression is, it came way before the opiates.

I guess I see everyone's point too. I know you haven't told anyone to do anything but there are probably a ton of people reading this who are looking for any reason to justify why they should not quit, or should not stay clean. And this could give them the reason. So if those people ARE reading this, then they need to consider what mental health issues they had prior to any opiates were taken in their lives. And Vinter isn't saying that this could be true for all, there are so many anti depressants out there that CAN and DO work for people who are depressed or have mental health issues.

I see both sides, I have lived it.

[Vintersemestre]

I have indeed been through it all - besides ECT, because I'm just not doing that. When a doctor asked me why, not that he thought it was a good idea (it's frowned upon in Canada), I told him "I just kinda sorta don't really like the idea of someone electrocuting my brain, you know". He laughed and said he understands and has never and would never practice it.