Question: Tramadol vs. other narcotics - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

ccgirl2 · 05-12-2008, 05:15 AM

Hey. A few of you know from another thread, a few weeks ago, my nephew had a major episode and confessed to his parents he was abusing narcotics. At the time we couldn't get much out of him and he refused to seek help.

Well, yesterday, he called me (yay) and once again fessed up to his real situation. He got out of jail about 5 or 6 months ago, started using narcotics, (hydros, oxys, codeine) whatever and in varying amounts; he wasn't sure.

So a few weeks ago, when he decided to stop he startied his own taper using some T3s and when those ran out he I guess started trying to taper with his mom's prescription of tramadol (she uses it for chronic pain)

Now, I know nothing about tramadol. When he talked to me he said he's been doing like 200 mg a day he thinks. OK, is that a lot? Should I be worried? If he c/t's (like he's planning on) what should he expect? I've heard here about seizures so that's what I'm nervous about? Anything else?

And, last thing - should I tell his mom he called. I believe he meant it to be between us, but I just don't know what to do.

TiredMama · 05-12-2008, 07:00 AM

Hey CC

My experience with tramadol was horrible and it was very addictive. It depends on the milligrams he is taking. There are 50 mg pills and 100 mg.

Now, I was taking about 15-20 of the 50mgs every day so I am surprised I didn't seize and I have seen one other person on here say that they had a seizure from this medication.

It was harder for for me to get off of these than any of the other opiates.

bvaljalo · 05-12-2008, 10:05 AM

200mg tramadol a day is nothing to worry about afa serious side effects goes. That's easily within the range of what's commonly prescribed to people.

I think *IF* a person is serious about getting off of other opiates, a short-term taper using low doses of tramadol to take the edge off is, in the overall scheme of things not such a bad idea. As long as they're serious about stopping, and they DO actually taper and quit. Otherwise, they're just dragging it out, and are likely to stay hooked on opiates and/or tramadol, because in the context you describe, trams are gonna be just like taking any other mild opiate. You WILL stay dependent until you quit opiates completely, period.

I would keep it in confidence, probably, but ... do your best to do whatever is best!

Oh, and the seizure danger arises from massively overdosing on tramadol, NOT from getting off it (as with benzos).

Jane63 · 05-12-2008, 10:07 AM

I don't know much about Tramadol...Is that "Ultram"??? If so, that is the one the DRs always said was "safe" and non-addictive! Yeah, right...NOT!! ;-(
Other than that, I hope someone else comes along with some answers for you ((cc)).

JMHO, I wouldn't tell his Mom but try to convince him to talk to her about what is going on.
Best wishes!!
Jane

ccgirl2 · 05-12-2008, 10:21 AM

Thanks for the answers so far guys. I feel so bad for my brother. He's 60 years old, and my newphew is being a sh*t.

I don't even know if I believe him when he says how much he takes; I guess that's why I wanted to find out about w/d symptoms so, oh, I don't know why. I, in my heart of hearts, fear that he is NOT serious, and he's headed down that crappy road we all know so well.

yearofthesnake · 05-12-2008, 12:34 PM

Tramadol is not to be messed with and IS very addictive!
I was hooked on it for about 5 months. The most I would take was 4 pills throughout the day at 50mg. I finally decided that the drug was not going to control me anymore and took action. I tapered down from 2 to 4 pills a day to just 2 pills, then just 1 pill and then finally 1/2 tablet until I was off this awful stuff.

He should try to taper down too and get off this stuff asap cause it is not the answer.

MrsMagoo · 05-12-2008, 12:54 PM

CC- Becky seized on Tramadol but I thought she did it when she tried to quit.

kj3880 · 05-12-2008, 03:15 PM

You all know my story with tapering off perc....could not, could not, could not do it. Tried many many times to taper. I think that most of us can't do it alone. Can someone hold his pills and dole them out? That would have helped me, but of course, control freak that I am, I never allowed that.
kj

ccgirl2 · 05-12-2008, 07:43 PM

Thanks again guys. No one can hold his pills because he's been taking them from other sources. You know, this kid's 17 and I truly believe he won't make it to 21.

I think I'm going to talk to my brother. If he died I would never ever be able to live with myself.

ksos · 05-12-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccgirl2

Thanks again guys. No one can hold his pills because he's been taking them from other sources. You know, this kid's 17 and I truly believe he won't make it to 21.

I think I'm going to talk to my brother. If he died I would never ever be able to live with myself.

CC....

Is there anyway you can encourage him to try attending a meeting before telling your brother? I am not sure if you ever made a promise to him about "not telling", but it does seem as if he trusts you.

I mean, he may really be into more crap than he is letting on to. Maybe this is the only choice you have?

My prayers are with you, of course.

Sugah · 05-12-2008, 08:31 PM

Maybe it's radical, cc, but I believe that it should be socially acceptable to imprison a child for his or her own good. I don't get that "My son/daughter is running the streets every night." I don't get that "My son/daughter has fallen in with a bad crowd." I speak in ignorance as a mother who does not have these issues with her children. I know plenty of parents who do, and when I ask, "Have you cut off their funds? Have you refused to give them a car to drive?" I get dumb blank stares. As though it's not acceptable. As though it's a crime to search their room and belongings. I reserve that right as a parent when I think my child's welfare is at stake. And my kids are mostly grown now - but so long as they live under my roof, I reserve those rights.

What would I do if I smelled marijuana smoke or found pills or alcohol? The first time, we'd talk. The second time, I'd call our local boys in blue and let them know my kids were breaking the law. I wish someone had done it for me. I believe that pain and facing consequences of one's actions are the best teachers when reason fails - which usually happens with addicts. Early bottoms are a blessing. Late bottoms are often too late.

Yeah, my kids say I'm a hard ass, but they love me, and they know I love them.

Prayers for your nephew, cc.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

TiredMama · 05-12-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsMagoo

CC- Becky seized on Tramadol but I thought she did it when she tried to quit.

I knew that someone had and they were taking as much as I was. I was one of the lucky ones I suppose.

JohnnyRocket · 05-12-2008, 09:47 PM

200 mgs of tramadol should be relatively easy for him to withdraw from..... especially if he doesn't use it for an extended period of time.

Tramadol can be very addictive and many of us have found ourselves taking 4 or 5 times that dosage for months on end (that is when it gets rough, but even then I only suffered lack of sleep when I stopped using them - of course, I got over the lack of sleep by progressing to morphine then oxy then fentanyl patches and dilaudid.... another story).

Tough call on whether to call his mom or not. If you do, you'll lose his trust. If you don't and he winds up in a bigger mess, you'll be blaming yourself. I don't know your family dynamics so I don't want to opine on this one.

ccgirl2 · 05-13-2008, 05:13 AM

One very important component of this whole horrible story and K and Sugah, this is where I am having the problem; he is also schizophrenic, so Sugah, I absolutely agree with you about the tough love part, but I remember one time the voices told him to come and he ended up in NYC at age 13 (before diagnosis) As far as family dynamics, my nephew and I have never been too close, although there is much love there. And K, I don't think the boy is even capable of sitting through meetings. It's just a sad, sad situation.

***Impurrfect*** · 05-13-2008, 05:32 AM

(((cc))) - the only thing I know about tramadol (yes, Jane, that's ultram) is what I've read here....mostly from Becky. I have taken it before, for my back, but never realized you could get addicted to it until I came here.

As far as telling your brother, I'd have to say go with your gut. When I found out Brit was using marijuana and drinking liquor (2 years ago, at age 13!!) I told my stepmom (her guardian), but not my dad because of OUR family dynamics. This was after I had talked to Brit about some brutal facts. The only thing that got through to her was telling her not only is she putting herself in a position for legal troubles, but her best friend's mom, whose house they were doing it at.

I do worry that he's downplaying what he's doing...didn't most of us? If telling your brother would make you feel better, do it. More than likely, he knows something is going on and if your nephew is telling him "it's nothing", he may think he's going crazy.

Whatever you do, sending you hugs and prayers!

Amy

windysan · 05-13-2008, 04:27 PM

i never got a buzz off tramadol. i don't see the big deal with it. maybe it'll help with a taper.....as far as tapers go...:rof

Sugah · 05-13-2008, 04:48 PM

cc, I know I was speaking from a position of ignorance, and I probably shouldn't have. I've been stuck in this idea that things are so much worse and more complicated than they were twenty years ago. That's probably not true. We're all just more aware of it, what with 24 hr "news" coverage and instant forms of communication. I hurt for these kids that aren't any different than I was at that age, but the rules seem to have changed. I knew heroin and "pill pushers" when I was in my teens, and only the lowest of them would have considered selling to a kid. Now, young folks in the rooms tell me it's easier to get dope than it is to get booze. Considering the average age, historically, that people enter recovery is mid-30s to mid-40s, I worry how many of them who will eventually want to get clean won't live that long.

I'll light a candle for your nephew tonight - and for all the other kids like him.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

TexasMan · 05-14-2008, 10:53 AM

Tramadol is a synthetic opiate which functions also as an SNRI for some 30% of the people who take it thus acting on seratonin and neuroepinephrine which provides some additional pain relief.

The maxium daily dosage is 400 mgs. I took it for awhile for chronic lower back pain and it did in fact work. I had no withdrawals when I stopped it and I'd taken it for a couple of years but never exceeded the above dosage.

It does work well to withdraw off other stronger opiates.

TiredMama · 05-14-2008, 04:37 PM

Didn't for me Texas, didn't for me. Just made me more addicted.

ccgirl2 · 05-14-2008, 05:29 PM

Sugah, no worries. And I always love your posts. He's just beyond any "normal" realm of discipline. I fear a terrible end for him.

He did end up telling his mom, but still wont' go anywhere. So, the ball is in their court right now. It's kind of a relief, really.

Toomutch · 05-14-2008, 06:31 PM

I am taking Tramadol- my doctor prescribed 800 mg a day. He said to take it with my vicoden in which he prescribed me 4000 MG of vicoden each day. These are maximum amounts. At the low end I am taking 400mg a day of tramodol with 2000 mg of vicoden. In addition to these I am taking neurontin, trazadone and ativan. Honest to God- no fooling.
My doctor is aware of my alcoholism, it is in my charts. I take the first 3 meds for chronic pain the trazadone for restful sleep and ativan when I have panick attacks.
Even though I am typically on only the tramadol during the day at work. When the pain is really bad I may take the full dose and stay home from work, but that happens rarely.
Anyhoo, enough about me.
The one thing I know about tramadol is that the literature I recieved with the medication said to not quit taking it abruptly or seizure could be the result. It also says that taking more of it than prescribed could lead to addiction.

Bear19 · 05-14-2008, 09:35 PM

4000 mg of V ?!?! 400 is a ton...4000 is death.

Toomutch · 05-15-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear19

4000 mg of V ?!?! 400 is a ton...4000 is death.

I have to laugh at myself. I am not prescribed 4000 mg of straight vicoden. My pills are HYDROCODONE/APAP 5/500MG. So that means I take up to 40mg each day, the rest is tylenol.
Sorry about that - I really feel silly now. Hence the blonde hair.

Lied2 · 05-16-2008, 09:14 PM

I took tramadol for awhile to help with sleep. Went through minor withdrawals when I quit.

My Wife on the other hand has had a secret addiction to it for the past 4 years. She has had 5 seizures. I didn't know what was going on and thought it was a neurological thing. She is in rehab right now for it. She risked her life and the lives of our 2 kids every time she drove. She also took it while pregnant with our 3rd child who died 4 days after birth... I'm still waiting on a report from the coroner as to whether or not the medicine was a factor in her death... Take with caution!!!

05-12-2008, 05:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
ccgirl2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: cape cod Posts: 2,313	Question: Tramadol vs. other narcotics Hey. A few of you know from another thread, a few weeks ago, my nephew had a major episode and confessed to his parents he was abusing narcotics. At the time we couldn't get much out of him and he refused to seek help. Well, yesterday, he called me (yay) and once again fessed up to his real situation. He got out of jail about 5 or 6 months ago, started using narcotics, (hydros, oxys, codeine) whatever and in varying amounts; he wasn't sure. So a few weeks ago, when he decided to stop he startied his own taper using some T3s and when those ran out he I guess started trying to taper with his mom's prescription of tramadol (she uses it for chronic pain) Now, I know nothing about tramadol. When he talked to me he said he's been doing like 200 mg a day he thinks. OK, is that a lot? Should I be worried? If he c/t's (like he's planning on) what should he expect? I've heard here about seizures so that's what I'm nervous about? Anything else? And, last thing - should I tell his mom he called. I believe he meant it to be between us, but I just don't know what to do.

05-12-2008, 07:00 AM	#2 (permalink)
TiredMama Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 536	Hey CC My experience with tramadol was horrible and it was very addictive. It depends on the milligrams he is taking. There are 50 mg pills and 100 mg. Now, I was taking about 15-20 of the 50mgs every day so I am surprised I didn't seize and I have seen one other person on here say that they had a seizure from this medication. It was harder for for me to get off of these than any of the other opiates. __________________

05-12-2008, 10:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
bvaljalo YES WE DID!!! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: East Bay, California Posts: 1,442	200mg tramadol a day is nothing to worry about afa serious side effects goes. That's easily within the range of what's commonly prescribed to people. I think IF a person is serious about getting off of other opiates, a short-term taper using low doses of tramadol to take the edge off is, in the overall scheme of things not such a bad idea. As long as they're serious about stopping, and they DO actually taper and quit. Otherwise, they're just dragging it out, and are likely to stay hooked on opiates and/or tramadol, because in the context you describe, trams are gonna be just like taking any other mild opiate. You WILL stay dependent until you quit opiates completely, period. I would keep it in confidence, probably, but ... do your best to do whatever is best! Oh, and the seizure danger arises from massively overdosing on tramadol, NOT from getting off it (as with benzos). __________________ well across the fields and woods i'd run like a bullet from a rabbit gun back home to my bed and when mama come in from gettysburg her an' that new beau o' hers 'boy, you look like hell' was all she said ...

05-12-2008, 10:07 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jane63 Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,928 Blog Entries: 8	I don't know much about Tramadol...Is that "Ultram"??? If so, that is the one the DRs always said was "safe" and non-addictive! Yeah, right...NOT!! ;-( Other than that, I hope someone else comes along with some answers for you ((cc)). JMHO, I wouldn't tell his Mom but try to convince him to talk to her about what is going on. Best wishes!! Jane __________________ ~Hope is that thing with feathers that perches in the soul and sings the tune without the words and never stops... at all.~ Emily Dickinson Rest In Peace My Sweet Sammy...2-24-08

05-12-2008, 12:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
MrsMagoo Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 403	CC- Becky seized on Tramadol but I thought she did it when she tried to quit. __________________ 'When you're down to nothing, God is up to something.'

05-12-2008, 10:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
ccgirl2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: cape cod Posts: 2,313	Thanks for the answers so far guys. I feel so bad for my brother. He's 60 years old, and my newphew is being a sh*t. I don't even know if I believe him when he says how much he takes; I guess that's why I wanted to find out about w/d symptoms so, oh, I don't know why. I, in my heart of hearts, fear that he is NOT serious, and he's headed down that crappy road we all know so well.

05-12-2008, 12:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
yearofthesnake Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: California Posts: 24	Tramadol is not to be messed with and IS very addictive! I was hooked on it for about 5 months. The most I would take was 4 pills throughout the day at 50mg. I finally decided that the drug was not going to control me anymore and took action. I tapered down from 2 to 4 pills a day to just 2 pills, then just 1 pill and then finally 1/2 tablet until I was off this awful stuff. He should try to taper down too and get off this stuff asap cause it is not the answer.

05-12-2008, 03:15 PM	#8 (permalink)
kj3880 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: md Posts: 1,398	You all know my story with tapering off perc....could not, could not, could not do it. Tried many many times to taper. I think that most of us can't do it alone. Can someone hold his pills and dole them out? That would have helped me, but of course, control freak that I am, I never allowed that. kj

05-12-2008, 07:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
ccgirl2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: cape cod Posts: 2,313	Thanks again guys. No one can hold his pills because he's been taking them from other sources. You know, this kid's 17 and I truly believe he won't make it to 21. I think I'm going to talk to my brother. If he died I would never ever be able to live with myself.

05-12-2008, 08:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sugah Om, Aum, Ohm... Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh Posts: 2,353	Maybe it's radical, cc, but I believe that it should be socially acceptable to imprison a child for his or her own good. I don't get that "My son/daughter is running the streets every night." I don't get that "My son/daughter has fallen in with a bad crowd." I speak in ignorance as a mother who does not have these issues with her children. I know plenty of parents who do, and when I ask, "Have you cut off their funds? Have you refused to give them a car to drive?" I get dumb blank stares. As though it's not acceptable. As though it's a crime to search their room and belongings. I reserve that right as a parent when I think my child's welfare is at stake. And my kids are mostly grown now - but so long as they live under my roof, I reserve those rights. What would I do if I smelled marijuana smoke or found pills or alcohol? The first time, we'd talk. The second time, I'd call our local boys in blue and let them know my kids were breaking the law. I wish someone had done it for me. I believe that pain and facing consequences of one's actions are the best teachers when reason fails - which usually happens with addicts. Early bottoms are a blessing. Late bottoms are often too late. Yeah, my kids say I'm a hard ass, but they love me, and they know I love them. Prayers for your nephew, cc. Peace & Love, Sugah __________________ There's a train leaving nightly called when all is said and done Keep me in your heart for awhile ~WZ ANS 01/29/86 - 08/04/08

05-12-2008, 09:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
JohnnyRocket Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mexifornia Posts: 13	200 mgs of tramadol should be relatively easy for him to withdraw from..... especially if he doesn't use it for an extended period of time. Tramadol can be very addictive and many of us have found ourselves taking 4 or 5 times that dosage for months on end (that is when it gets rough, but even then I only suffered lack of sleep when I stopped using them - of course, I got over the lack of sleep by progressing to morphine then oxy then fentanyl patches and dilaudid.... another story). Tough call on whether to call his mom or not. If you do, you'll lose his trust. If you don't and he winds up in a bigger mess, you'll be blaming yourself. I don't know your family dynamics so I don't want to opine on this one.

05-13-2008, 05:13 AM	#14 (permalink)
ccgirl2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: cape cod Posts: 2,313	One very important component of this whole horrible story and K and Sugah, this is where I am having the problem; he is also schizophrenic, so Sugah, I absolutely agree with you about the tough love part, but I remember one time the voices told him to come and he ended up in NYC at age 13 (before diagnosis) As far as family dynamics, my nephew and I have never been too close, although there is much love there. And K, I don't think the boy is even capable of sitting through meetings. It's just a sad, sad situation.

05-13-2008, 05:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
*Impurrfect* Community Greeter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,818	(((cc))) - the only thing I know about tramadol (yes, Jane, that's ultram) is what I've read here....mostly from Becky. I have taken it before, for my back, but never realized you could get addicted to it until I came here. As far as telling your brother, I'd have to say go with your gut. When I found out Brit was using marijuana and drinking liquor (2 years ago, at age 13!!) I told my stepmom (her guardian), but not my dad because of OUR family dynamics. This was after I had talked to Brit about some brutal facts. The only thing that got through to her was telling her not only is she putting herself in a position for legal troubles, but her best friend's mom, whose house they were doing it at. I do worry that he's downplaying what he's doing...didn't most of us? If telling your brother would make you feel better, do it. More than likely, he knows something is going on and if your nephew is telling him "it's nothing", he may think he's going crazy. Whatever you do, sending you hugs and prayers! Amy __________________ "I'm not where I want to be, but thank God I'm not where I used to be" - Joyce Meyer

05-13-2008, 04:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
windysan Large Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: La Posts: 3,547	i never got a buzz off tramadol. i don't see the big deal with it. maybe it'll help with a taper.....as far as tapers go...:rof

05-13-2008, 04:48 PM	#17 (permalink)
Sugah Om, Aum, Ohm... Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh Posts: 2,353	cc, I know I was speaking from a position of ignorance, and I probably shouldn't have. I've been stuck in this idea that things are so much worse and more complicated than they were twenty years ago. That's probably not true. We're all just more aware of it, what with 24 hr "news" coverage and instant forms of communication. I hurt for these kids that aren't any different than I was at that age, but the rules seem to have changed. I knew heroin and "pill pushers" when I was in my teens, and only the lowest of them would have considered selling to a kid. Now, young folks in the rooms tell me it's easier to get dope than it is to get booze. Considering the average age, historically, that people enter recovery is mid-30s to mid-40s, I worry how many of them who will eventually want to get clean won't live that long. I'll light a candle for your nephew tonight - and for all the other kids like him. Peace & Love, Sugah __________________ There's a train leaving nightly called when all is said and done Keep me in your heart for awhile ~WZ ANS 01/29/86 - 08/04/08

05-14-2008, 10:53 AM	#18 (permalink)
TexasMan Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9	Tramadol is a synthetic opiate which functions also as an SNRI for some 30% of the people who take it thus acting on seratonin and neuroepinephrine which provides some additional pain relief. The maxium daily dosage is 400 mgs. I took it for awhile for chronic lower back pain and it did in fact work. I had no withdrawals when I stopped it and I'd taken it for a couple of years but never exceeded the above dosage. It does work well to withdraw off other stronger opiates.

05-14-2008, 04:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
TiredMama Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 536	Didn't for me Texas, didn't for me. Just made me more addicted. __________________

05-14-2008, 05:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
ccgirl2 Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: cape cod Posts: 2,313	Sugah, no worries. And I always love your posts. He's just beyond any "normal" realm of discipline. I fear a terrible end for him. He did end up telling his mom, but still wont' go anywhere. So, the ball is in their court right now. It's kind of a relief, really.

05-14-2008, 06:31 PM	#21 (permalink)
Toomutch with a new light in my eyes Join Date: May 2007 Location: Littleton, Co. Posts: 2,236	I am taking Tramadol- my doctor prescribed 800 mg a day. He said to take it with my vicoden in which he prescribed me 4000 MG of vicoden each day. These are maximum amounts. At the low end I am taking 400mg a day of tramodol with 2000 mg of vicoden. In addition to these I am taking neurontin, trazadone and ativan. Honest to God- no fooling. My doctor is aware of my alcoholism, it is in my charts. I take the first 3 meds for chronic pain the trazadone for restful sleep and ativan when I have panick attacks. Even though I am typically on only the tramadol during the day at work. When the pain is really bad I may take the full dose and stay home from work, but that happens rarely. Anyhoo, enough about me. The one thing I know about tramadol is that the literature I recieved with the medication said to not quit taking it abruptly or seizure could be the result. It also says that taking more of it than prescribed could lead to addiction. __________________ Good friends are like stars..... You don't always see them, But you know they are always there

05-14-2008, 09:35 PM	#22 (permalink)
Bear19 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 32	4000 mg of V ?!?! 400 is a ton...4000 is death.

05-16-2008, 09:14 PM	#24 (permalink)
Lied2 Husband of Addict Join Date: May 2008 Location: Murrieta CA Posts: 6	I took tramadol for awhile to help with sleep. Went through minor withdrawals when I quit. My Wife on the other hand has had a secret addiction to it for the past 4 years. She has had 5 seizures. I didn't know what was going on and thought it was a neurological thing. She is in rehab right now for it. She risked her life and the lives of our 2 kids every time she drove. She also took it while pregnant with our 3rd child who died 4 days after birth... I'm still waiting on a report from the coroner as to whether or not the medicine was a factor in her death... Take with caution!!!