Roxy and Oxy withdrawls

[Chino]

I'm not a recovering addict but my 21 year old daughter is. Her DOC is IV dilaudid and she's back on suboxone after being a passenger in a nasty car wreck in September. She had a couple of corrective surgeries and may require more.

Looking at your pictures, my heart breaks for you.

My daughter was on a prescribed 240ml of oxycontin a day for six weeks then tried to make the jump back to being clean. She couldn't do it and still has some pain to deal with just like you. A psychiatrist at the hospital oversaw her pain management at first then she went back to her sub doctor. Both of them advised her against trying to jump off and suggested she get back on subs. They told her the receptors would not be able to handle the pain combined with withdrawals until her physical issues are resolved.

I'm not suggesting that you do or don't get off the pills, I posted this because I hope you have some kind of plan ready when you make the leap. You have a lot to overcome and I admire your determination. Please use it wisely and my prayers are with you.

[bvaljalo]

Yah, a rapid taper/detox, using 3x8mg subs, in my experience, I'd say that should help ease the inevitable w/d's a little bit, not a lot, but a little.

Logic would seem to indicate that you'll wanna go as easy as possible, and try to make these three pills last at least a week. If it were me, I'd probably be thinking I'd do like 4mg/day for the first 4 days, then 2mg, then 1mg, then 1mg on days 5,6,7.

I always found it was best to wait at least 16 hours after my last pain pill to start them, and be prepared to not actually feel all that well from it until at least 24 hours have passed since the last pain pill. And in my experience, it's best to not keep taking more, early on, trying to feel better, cause it's not likely to work.

Obviously, however, I'm not a doctor, and I really think it'd be much smarter for you to get your doctor involved in this process. That's a pretty short taper, especially given that you're in legit pain as well. A longer schedule, under proper supervision, would be a wiser choice, IMHO. Being a slave to subs is not nearly as depressing as being a slave to norco, that much I can tell you from experience...

[Its the devil]

I took my last 3 norco 10's this mornning. So in a couple of hours it starts! BUt I had to go to court for the accident! I didnt want to be a mess this mornning . SO I ASSUME! It is down hill from here! The doctors said they are going to give me a nacropethy. Which means they are going to cut my nerve and barry it in my soft tissue of my leg! I go see the plastic doctor monday to try and correlate the skin graph with nacropethy. Hopefully they will get this done and over with before xmas but I doubt it! I am supposed to go see the pain managment doctor on thursday. But I will probally be feeling like complete **** and I hope I will have the will power to not accept my prescriptions from him. Otherwise I might just skip the appointment and deal with it. God I hate knowing what is in store for me next! But I have this in my mind! I have been mentally preparing for it for days ! I need to do it right now!

[In a Tailspin]

Let me start by saying I am not an addict, so take my advice with a grain of salt, as I cannot, in any way, say I know what it's like to be in your shoes.

I can, however, say that I have watched my abf of 3 years (who was clean when I met him) spiral out of control with pills that he was getting for legitimate pain. However, looking back (as both his gf and an RN) - I can see where his biggest downfall may also be yours. When he started seeing the orthopedic surgeon for the surgery he needed, he was NEVER honest about the fact that he had gotten hooked on oxy after his previous surgery. He, like it seems you believe, didn't trust his doctor to manage his pain if the doc knew about addiction. So the doc was fully unarmed to deal with an addict who, once back on his doc, QUICKLY lost all control. Unfair to his doc and himself.

I say this because it seems that if you only have 3 8-mg Subs.......you didn't get these from a doc. My feeling is that Sub therapy (which my abf has been on for 3 weeks) is about alot more than popping the pill under your tongue. It seems you've spent a lot of your life using a pill to fix your problem......and Subs shouldn't be seen/used that way. They are PART of getting clean.......not the WHOLE of it.

I see that you have shunned AA/NA in the past........and chosen instead to work 3 jobs and go to school. While I give you big kudos for your motivation, I would also say that all the time you're spending trying to "better" yourself through work and further education.......those things should definitely be taking a back seat to getting and staying clean........because a college degree will do you no good if you follow your addiction to the grave.

Again......I'm not an addict and can't, in any way, relate to the addcition and it's driving forces.....I've lived with it in my abf and it still baffles me. Take what you want and leave the rest!!

Best of luck to you, ITD!!

[Its the devil]

Well its been 30 hours since my last draw from norcos. I took two hot baths last night and finally decided take 4mg of subs and 3 2mg of klonopin at about 1am this mornning fell asleep until 7:00 am. Gut up poped another 4 mgs of subs this mornning! And I relaly dont feel that bad! I Am sick and confused and restless! Kinda depressed but not near as bad as i had expected it to be, Maybe by some miracle of god my plan is going to work out! I plan on taking another 4mg of subs tomorrow morning and 4mg the following mornning! Then cut down to 2mg and 2mg and then 1mg and 1mg and let it go from there and see how bad it will be! I will have to go back into surgey sometime soon in the next two weeks for a skin graph and necopathey???? or whatever it is but we will deal with when it comes! Thank you all for your support and kind words! Somewtimes I fee liek this is theonoy place I can turn to for help and

understanding may soberity fill my stocking for xmas!

[Shellslove]

ITD - hey there =) I'm a recent lurker to the boards and actually just registered to respond to your post. I have been on subs since September 2008 after a nasty 2 year habit + of opiates and Tramadol. I just wanted to say congratulations on your desire and perseverance overcoming your DOC. It seems like you're doing an awesome job, especially after the hard time you've been through!!!!!!! I just wanted to comment on the sub use - I cannot remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure you're not doing this under a dr's supervision? It's really SO important that you do!! So many people will tell you the withdrawal from subs is a million times worse than oxys, heroin blah blah - but it's usually b/c they are a) not using the subs correctly b) tapering inappropriately or not at the correct time/pace c) not using the subs for the right purpose. This is my opinion of course - the subs have been a LIFESAVER for me, my relationship and my well-being. It's especially important that you work with a doctor if you are going to need surgery (meaning possible anesthesia and legitamite pain mngmt after care) within as soon as 2 wks. Sub has a super long half life -and even if you are only using for a short detox, it stays in your body for much longer. You may need much stronger meds when admitted for your procedures (drs usually like to keep a sub patient in the ICU for after care in these situations due to the high level of pain meds needed to overcome the sub, but your sub dr can work with them.) I know you're worried about $, etc but a good SUB dr will work with you to get to a price you can afford. Also, your PCP can get certified to RX sub. MAybe you should consider a long term sub instead of having to deal with C/T? I know you want off meds, but sub can be a great 'sub' while you get your life back on track, learn new behaviors and how to live without drugs...and with/without pain if that is your choice. Sub can also help to lessen the pain, and not take your mind away. This is getting long so I will stop--- but if you have more sub ?'s - ask away!

[Its the devil]

well actually, LIke a isaid I took my last noroc on 12/15 and I ate 4mg's of subs at 1-2am on 12-16-08 I ate another 4mgs of subs at 10 am thismrnning with some klonopin an I fell alaright a little loopey from the klonopin but still functional! Compardd to the cold turkey I went thourgh last year! Tomorrow I Am going to try and drop it down to 2mgs when I wake up or if i even go to sleep. I fele like this is a miracle. friday I Aam going to drop abother 2mg and then sataurday another 2 and then monday 1 and and tuesday 1 and see what happens! IF this dosent work then I qill be beack here telling you all tha tyou were all right and what the next step for me should be! I have reaad thaat this meathod of detox works for some and i hope it orks for me! The reason I havet been tellig the truth or entering a na is becase ai mn geting my degree in psychopathology! And that will not be excepted in my field! If you understand what I saying! Please talk to me if you have the chance I Would appreciate it! Thank you and love to all of you! MAy we all be free the devilish vices! ~PEACE~ ~LOVE~ ~KENNY~

[Shellslove]

I wish you all the luck in the world little Devil! (hehe, I really just wanted to say that!) I do! I truly hope this works for you - and please do let me know if you have ?'s about the sub- even if you do decide to stick to this short detox. I myself am going for my masters in Counseling (drug addiction - of course) - I've got my ungrad in Psych. You'd be suprised how many ppl in our field have dealt with addiction and things of the sort. How does the saying go? you can't really understand until you've walked a mile in someone shoes...I personally think it's to your advantage that you'll now understand the ppl you plan on treating (not that I'm suggesting becoming an addict to be a better dr!) Now some words of caution (b/c I'm a jewish grandmom like that) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful mixing the klonopin and subs. Benzo + sub = danger! b/c they both have the potential to depress your respiratory function and slow breathing (which I'm sure you know if you's studying psychopharm.) I know of NO sub dr that will RX the 2 together except under very specific circumstances - short term and well monitored. That being said, you are not taking a high dose or long term amnt of either - but it only takes once. I'm certainly not a dr, this is just my opinion, but please be careful and if at all possible get a drs advice on this, at least. Also keep in mind the benzos can be just as addictive - but I guess tht isn't your main concern if you only have a few on hand for the W/D period.

The suboxone has been an absolute lifesaver for me -- it's not a cure - no one thing is - but it's bought me time. I'm learning new habits and how to live life and actually feel without being high! When I was using, I couldn't remember how to do that without opiates. If the short term doesn't work for you, there is NO SHAME in doing a longer round of the subs. Don't believe the 'trading one drug for another' hype. Sure, you cannot be 'fully' clean until you're off everything - but think about it. The sub allows for you to live life w/o W/D, but not get high....and if you do decide to use, you have to take the time for it to leave your system. And when it does , you're in mild W/D again- detering you from stopping in the first place. And b/c it has a small amnt of opiate activity, it takes away the cravings for opiates (the hardest part of all this IMHO.) I am all for will power and the desire to want a life free from drugs...but I know that for myself and most addicts out there...it's much easier said than done.....which is why we got in trouble in the first place! This is just what worked for me --- it's by no means the perfect solution --- but it's a start.

Also remember, even if you do decide to stick it out and go c/t off the sub detox...if you are having surgery in the next week or 2 - PLEASE tell the dr that you've had the sub in your system. W/O this info, they cannot give you the proper care or correct amount of meds when working on you...and things can get dicey. Remember that confidentiality will always come into play and no one at school is going to find out about this from your drs.

[bvaljalo]

Yes, and nor will showing up to NA meetings show up on your school record ... notice how the word Anonymous appears in the title of the outfit? Think about it. That excuse doesn't fly. You should hit some meetings my friend

And you should also save the klonopin for when you get completely off the bupes. You'll need them a lot more then vs. now, plus as Shelly said, it's not entirely safe to mix opioids and benzos in general.

[Its the devil]

Its day four! I have made it this far! I am down to 2mg of sub today! and I have 6mgs left at the house! I feel like this is a miracle. I am going to go to a NA on Sunday after work if I have the time! Finals are this week! But I Will get there to taste it at least once! I Went to the pain Doctor told h I'm what was up! HE just Scripps me more PK"s and Patches! I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT! So i told my orthopedic doctor what was up! And he is going to postpone the surgery until after the new years! I Am going to drop myself down to 1mg and 1mg and so on and so on till they are gone! I Will stop with the klonopine till I Am out of subs! I Am also going into psychopathology! Thank you to everyone who just talks to me like I am a human being! You have all these friend that are in your physical life but when times get ruff I turn you guys again! The same friends I had over a year ago! Thank you so so much! ~LOVE ~KENDALL~

[bvaljalo]

Hey, Kendall, glad that your spirits seem to be better, and you're not freaking out so much

A couple things though ... first off, this really isn't any sort of a miracle. You see, this is what subs DO, this what they're for ... keeping you from feeling like crap. They are, however, still an opioid medication, and thus you're going to be in for a rough patch when you stop taking them. As I told you before, this one-week run will help take the edge off of what your w/d's would have been otherwise, but you are still going to go through w/d's when they run out. So ... be prepared.

Also, I have to wonder ... you're going to be going through surgery very soon, and gauging by the nature of your injuries, I'd guess that surgery is gonna be quite painful in the aftermath. You're gonna likely end up on morphine for at least a few days, and quite possibly on narcotic painkillers for at least a while after that...

Don't get me wrong, anytime is a pretty good time to try to get clean, and I applaud you for it ... but I just worry a bit for you in this situation ... you taper off the bupes, you go through feeling crappy for awhile, you are likely to be JUST starting to really feel a lot better, then BAM, you go in for surgery and have to get doped up again, out of necessity. This will almost certainly lead to your having to tough out withdrawals again, only a couple weeks after the last time you did so (meaning now). This path to me seems a bit unnecessarily difficult, I dunno ...

[Its the devil]

i can handle pain! I can ssit under a tattoo neeedle for hours and hours! Pain dosent bother me! Feeling like a zombie bothers me! I can do this! I can!!!! I WIll I have too!

[Its the devil]

Its the will power to know I can do it! To know I own myself and my soul not something or someone or some substance!

[bvaljalo]

Okay, so you're saying your plan is to get clean now, and then in a couple weeks, you're gonna have a painful surgery ... at a hospital, obviously ... with free drugs at your immediate disposal ... with THE PERFECT excuse to use those drugs ... at a point where your body is going to be naturally very low on it's own painkilling chemicals due your only recently having gotten clean, having had barely any time to work on actual 'recovery' ...

I just gotta say, ITD ... good luck with all that

It's all well and good to talk about how much pain you can handle when you're sitting comfortably on some subutex right now ... but this situation with the surgery is a little more complicated than just the 'physical pain' aspect of things.

It's kinda like, when you're on dope, it seems like when you think about withdrawals, you kinda think they aren't really THAT bad, like 'Hey, I can tough 'em out'! And then ... you get there. And you can't.

All I'm trying to tell you is ... you are not choosing what I would personally consider to be the logical approach to this situation. In my book, the smartest thing to do would've been to stay on the norco, trying to keep my dose down in the meantime, tried to get the surgery as quickly as possible, told the doc to give me the minimum of morphine afterwards, and the weakest of pain killers to take home. Then I'd have used those as sparingly as possible, weaning down, then I'd have used the few subs I had to wean off of those in the end.

I'm sorry, but unless I'm totally missing somethign important here, I'm just really confused as to how your approach to this situation makes logical sense, ITD?

[Its the devil]

BVALJAO You know your probably right! And I usually just jump off the cliff! But I felt like i was dying inside! The surgery probably wont be for at least three weeks since the holidays! I have three days left of bupes! And I guess I will take it from there! I do not have control over my use of proper PK"S i just eat them, until i fell no pain at all! I'm a addict! So i thought the best thing to do was just quite before i killed my self from too much or respiratory failure of liver damage! I told my or-tho surgeon what I am doing and he said we will deal with properly when the time comes as long as I Am honest! I just appreciate being around and talking to people who have been there who understand whop dont treat you like a piece of ****!

[Chino]

A good question to ask your surgeon now is what does he normally prescribe for this type of surgery, and how long? Will pain affect your physical recovery and how much pain should you expect? Whatever his answer is to the last question you can expect more because your receptors will be raw.

These are the questions my daughter learned she absolutely had to ask to protect her recovery from addiction.