exjunky

I know what you are saying, and in a way you are right, but there's a built-in contradiction here. Drug abuse goes through stages, initially it's the denial stage ("I can quit whenever I want... only dumb people get hooked... I will only use on the weekends..." etc.), then it moves into a romantic stage ("I admit I'm an addict, but I love it") ... then in stage #3 everything comes crashing down around them, and they really want to quit, but can't. Also, around this time, the addict finds they stop getting high from their dope!!!

You see the contradiction? When the addict hits rock bottom and no longer can derive any happiness from the drug, they stop getting high. Three months ago I was shooting hydromorphone as often as 8 times a day and I was not getting high. I would do shots that should kill a moose, and didn't flinch. But nobody here would call that "clean" in any sense of the word!! That's not clean, that's a tolerance.

On the other hand, if an addict quits the needle and switches to methadone, and marks their calendar as the day they made the decision to quit, then I say let's celebrate that date with them as much as they like. If they go 30 days on methadone, buy them a cake with 30 candles, whatever it takes to reinforce their decision to take a step in the right direction. I never actually said methadone users were clean, I said that if they want to call it "clean" that I would "go along with it"--it's a harmless lie designed to help somebody else.

littlethings

[QUOTE=exjunky;1526830]I know what you are saying, and in a way you are right, but there's a built-in contradiction here. Drug abuse goes through stages, initially it's the denial stage ("I can quit whenever I want... only dumb people get hooked... I will only use on the weekends..." etc.), then it moves into a romantic stage ("I admit I'm an addict, but I love it") ... then in stage #3 everything comes crashing down around them, and they really want to quit, but can't. Also, around this time, the addict finds they stop getting high from their dope!!!

You see the contradiction? When the addict hits rock bottom and no longer can derive any happiness from the drug, they stop getting high. Three months ago I was shooting hydromorphone as often as 8 times a day and I was not getting high. I would do shots that should kill a moose, and didn't flinch. But nobody here would call that "clean" in any sense of the word!! That's not clean, that's a tolerance.
QUOTE]

I know the steps of addiction.... I have been through it and watched people go through it. that was a good way of explaining it. props to you.

contradiction?? I see that the contradiction lies within the fact that you shooting up eight times a day was IN NO WAY a form of you admitting to your problem, reaching out for help, getting help, or trying to better your life. People who are on methadone from a clinic (PRESCRIBED) are doing most, if not all of those things. They in turn, if they do not use street drugs, are clean. I did not say that you are clean if you use street drugs and are not getting high.

Gmoney

Littlethings,

First, you say you think that people on methadone are clean, the you turn around and say they use it to get clean. Sure, there's a contradiction there. You either don't see it or don't want to. Either they're clean or they're not. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am, but it doesn't make you or I right or wrong.

And no, I've never been on methadone nor would I have. On top of that, I know plenty of addicts who "kicked" their habits without it - either in a jail cell, treatment facility or a hospital (if I had to do it, I'd go the hospital route). They did it without methadone because they didn't want to continue using a drug to counter the withdrawal of another drug (i.e., drug replacement program). I'll also add that NONE of them used other illegal drugs during their first days or weeks, so at that stage of their program they were clean. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it sounds more like personal opinion that it does fact. Now, if you're referring to methadone addicts during their initial phase of treatment...I can see how trying to determine an accurate dosage may involve some trial and error, but even during that stage of their program they are still using a narcotic substance to counteract the withdrawal symptoms of another narcotic substance. For me, this is not clean...it's substitution. It's drug replacement.

And no...clean isn't about just not getting high. Many addicts will tell you that in the bitter ends of their active addiction, they used just to function, not to get high (this includes prescription meds). Their bodies craved a substance, and if not fed, they would get violently ill. And depending on their DOC, the illness didn't have to be physical. So not getting high is only a part of what being clean is, for me. Exjunky offered an example of how this is true for others.

You also mention that methadone addicts eventually DETOX from methadone. If they were clean, why would they need to detox? Detoxification from a substance means there is a reliance on said substance because it is a "toxin" and addictive. I don't know, but it sounds like using methadone is still active addiction, and active addiction isn't clean. And just because you can get a prescription for a drug doesn't mean you're clean either. Just ask all the addicts who visit this site that used prescription drugs. I take blood pressure meds because I have hypertension, not to reduce withdrawal symtoms or avoid kicking another drug cold turkey. If I take an antibiotic, it's to kill an infection, not to reduce withdrawal symtoms or avoid kicking another drug cold turkey. If I take a tylenol for a headache or arthritis, I'm still clean because it's non-narcotic, nor is it drug substition or drug replacement. I find it humorous how some folks grasp at straws to make their points when no logical comparison can be made. Oh yeah, in case you didn't know, prescribed narcotics and street drugs are both drugs and it's not what you used that makes you an addict.

Littlethings, you also mention that you've been on methadone and got clean. I also noticed that you haven't been here long. Might I ask how long has it been since you detoxed and stayed clean? Just curious.

Windysan, in all the years I've been involved in NA, I've never heard the terms "dry-doper" or "dry-drunk" used. I have heard dry drunk used in AA, though.

exjunky

I know you didn't, that would be silly. That was my point, the same one that you made yourself: there has to be more of a measure than simply "not getting high".

So you can split hairs over the definition of clean all day long without getting anywhere. One guy says dogmatically "if you take any drug at all you are not clean" and then somebody says "well I drink coffee" and somebody else says "my doctor told me to eat one aspirin every day for my heart", and the discussion gets so hair-splitting and technical it's nauseating.

So sweep all of that aside and just look at what really matters, the person who is trying to improve their situation.

Evanna

That may be your belief and you are entitled to it Garry. From where i sit that was a ridiculous statement though.

There are many ways to recover. You clearly chose the NA way which is cool. I am open minded and i would advocate NA to anyone. However, i dont choose that path. I dont do the NA thing and i dont count clean time. Never have done. Couldnt tell you how long i have been clean. Somewhere in the region of 4 or 5 years, possibly longer. There was a day back then when i used for the last time i was simply to busy trying to get through it to pay attention to the date. It really isnt terribly important to me either. What is important to me is that i am clean today. There is never a day goes by where i forget where i have come from and i have absolutely no hesitation about my recovery.

tiburon88

I'm not sure of my clean date either. It seems to anger some people that I come across.

Gmoney

I hear you. Your point of view is based on your experience and mine is based on my own. I respect that you have good reason for why you haven't kept track of your clean date, and as a matter of fact, you've expressed it very well. If you've read this entire thread, you may have noticed that I also gave what I consider good reason to remember when I got clean. Yet...not once have I said anyone else's view was ridiculous - from where I sit.

Part of my experience is this: I've met numerous addicts who (for one reason or another) couldn't remember their clean date or never gave it serious concern. Each and ever one THAT I MET ended up using again. So, what I believe has a foundation in MY experience. I'm open-minded enough to understand that there are probably a multitude of exceptions, but I just haven't witnessed them YET.

Ridiculous? I doubt it. The clock is still ticking and more is always revealed. This thread started with basically an inquiry about why people count their clean time, but like most threads it got steered into other related areas. Oh well.... I'm done.

:horse

PeachyClean

counting...> it's a personal choice. I never counted until about 3 years ago when I joined another recovery forum and everyone knew their clean date?? I found that I was somewhat out of place. All I knew was that I had stopped using sometime in "september"... many septembers ago... wasn't even sure which year exactly. After doing some research... I discovered that my clean date was 6 years before I joined that forum ... time sure does fly when your busy living.

Every September I do reflect on how long I've come from that hell of an existance.

PeachyClean

I don't know my clean date exactly, and I know I can not EVER use again nor do I want to nor am I substituting one drug for another.

Isn't NA and AA the same thing?

jane_668

I have several sobriety dates but nevertheless I keep track of them on my calander. I never thought they may be useful for anything but self pitty.But I was wrong because just the memory of these clean days helped me pull through my relaspses.They gave me hope that at some point I was drug free and it's worth it to try again. They were my connection with the clean world.
I was prescribed Klonopin by my doctor for amonth but I was still taking it 5 months later.So it all depends on the person and the way he's taking his medication.If you feel that methadone is helping you to get off drugs then that's good for you .However, I hope that you're not rationalizing your drug use because methadone can get high like any other drug.So be careful.

Evanna

Ah, there it is again. The conviction that there is only one way and those of us who choose a different way will, in the end, all relapse and die.

littlethings

[QUOTE=GarryW;1527186]Littlethings,

First, you say you think that people on methadone are clean, the you turn around and say they use it to get clean. Sure, there's a contradiction there. You either don't see it or don't want to. Either they're clean or they're not. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am, but it doesn't make you or I right or wrong.

And no, I've never been on methadone nor would I have. On top of that, I know plenty of addicts who "kicked" their habits without it - either in a jail cell, treatment facility or a hospital (if I had to do it, I'd go the hospital route). They did it without methadone because they didn't want to continue using a drug to counter the withdrawal of another drug (i.e., drug replacement program). I'll also add that NONE of them used other illegal drugs during their first days or weeks, so at that stage of their program they were clean. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it sounds more like personal opinion that it does fact. Now, if you're referring to methadone addicts during their initial phase of treatment...I can see how trying to determine an accurate dosage may involve some trial and error, but even during that stage of their program they are still using a narcotic substance to counteract the withdrawal symptoms of another narcotic substance. For me, this is not clean...it's substitution. It's drug replacement.
QUOTE]

I honestly don't mean to sound rude and I understand this thread was started to discuss clean dates and in turn we end up talking about whether or not methadone is clean.... but if YOU YOURSELF have NEVER been on methadone... who are you to talk about whether it's clean or not???? I would NEVER, NEVER go and talk about alcoholics being clean or not clean, crystal meth addicts being clean or not clean, or question any other addiction that i myself have not been addicted to(for I have NO ROOM to talk, if i have never EXPERIENCED IT MYSELF). I don't care how many friends of yours have went through it, you really don't have room to talk if you haven't experienced it. GRANTED, you ARE entitled to your opinion, but don't put things out here for people looking for help and reading this.... then they read YOUR posts from someone who has never personally been through it. I think that is wrong. That would be like ME going into an alcoholics forum and trashing whether they're clean or not if they've had a glass of wine. And as far as where am i getting my facts from?? STREET EXPERIENCE. I never said they were KNOWN FACTS. In my experience, in the outpatient methadone clinic i attended for 2+ year, the MAJORITY of people countinued using until they reached their stable dose. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION WHERE I GET MY FACTS FROM WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO A METHADONE CLINIC?? Seeing as, If i remember correctly, you go to NA, I MYSELF have not and would NEVER question any "facts" you say about NA BECAUSE I MYSELF HAVE NEVER DONE NA.

I do not know what you've been through and I may be wrong on saying whether or not you have room to talk.... but obviously we differ in opinions and experiences. Let's leave it at that.

littlethings

I'm not sure if you read any of my prior posts, but I am no longer on methadone and that was one of my points with the "clean", "not clean" thing. You are NOT clean if you are getting HIGH off of methadone. You are not on your stabilized dose if you are.

Gmoney

Naw...you got me twisted. I didn't say the clock was just ticking FOR YOU. It's ticking for us all, and what I believe today (based on my experience) I may not believe tomorrow (more is always revealed if I'm open). If you've read some of the numerous posts I've made, you'll know that I firmly understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I've met people in NA and AA who accumulated 15, 20, & 25 years go back to using. A few died. Relapse and death is an equal-opportunity destroyer regardless which path you choose.

Oh...and no, AA & NA aren't the same.:ghug

Littlethings, best wishes!!

PeachyClean

oh.... what are the differences? just curious.

Peter

AA deals with recovery from one specific substance....alcohol.

NA deals with the broader spectrum of addiction to all mind and mood altering drugs.

This is one of the more obvious differences with the two.

PeachyClean

ok... but isn't the literature/program the same?

Peter

Both programmes use a completely different set of literature but they both espouses the Principles of the 12 Steps as written by AA's founder Bill W.

PeachyClean

So essentially they are the same.
Are you saying that the 12steps/AA/NA started based on the BELIEFS of 1 person??

Evanna

Nice post Garry and i am glad i got you all twisted. I have to own that i am a little prickly around this stuff. :ghug3