ZorbaTheGreek

Hello,


Before I begin, I have read many threads here where this community has helped so many people in so many different cases. I really hope some of you guys might be able to help me. I have a few problems, and am going to try and fix them at the end of the month. I will try and put this all in as few words as possible.

After school (collage) I decided to enlist in the military to do my fair share and help my fellow country men. I lost my closest friend, and I felt I had to play a part. I ended up doing 3 tours. My last one, I nearly lost my life. I was actually declared dead. I was shot in the spine and I have some shrapnel around parts of my back. I was in the hospital for several months in Germany as well as in rehab. I was in good shape before this, I was a semi pro body builder, an all round athlete, and it great overall health. However, I did have an anxiety problem and I was born with some back problems as well. But had it all under control (for the most part).

Fast forward a few years. I am no longer in the military, I got married and began working. My wife was a witch, she married me for nothing more than to get US citizenship. I wasted 7 years of my life on someone who had no intention on raising a family with me. I was lied to and I became an emotional wreck. That was just icing on the cake…my mind was all ready a mess from some horrific experiences before the military, than watching my closest friends get killed in front of me, getting diagnosed with PTSD and a few other issues.

My life seemed to come to an end. I had no job, I am partially handicapped, I don't have my wife at my side anymore, I pushed all my family and friends away from me, I am a loner. I live alone. I dine alone. I VERY rarely meet up with old friends. It's nice to do so, but sometimes seeing old faces trigger bad emotional responses. Now on to my main problem.

My back problems are VERY VERY complicated. I've been operated on 4 times. And each time, I just got worst. My doctors have me on extremely high levels of opiates, they want to operate on me again….but this time they told me I risk becoming paralyzed if the surgery doesn't take. And to be honest, for the very first time in my life….I'm scared beyond control. I have been heavily medicated for 2 years now, it's the only way I can walk, feel my feet, live more of a normal life. But I am done with the pain meds.

I now have a heavy addiction to opiates. I'm at a point where I have to take extremely high doses to get relief. Doses higher than what my doctor prescribes. When my scrips run out, I get other opiates to help with my pain. But now, even if I'm not in pain….I need to take them because if I don't, I get sick right away. So I'm dependent upon them. It's been over two years, I need to stop. I tried stopping 6 months ago with subs, I did a 10 day detox. Everything was a blur in life. I stopped the opiates, and finished the subs. Than I had an accident and fell down a VERY long flight of stairs. I didn't break anything, but I was stuck to the floor for 5 hours before I could get help. I thought I was honestly going to die….again. I made it to a phone, called an ambulance, and went to the ER.

The pain I was in was a 10/10. I could not eat, talk, NOTHING….the pain just took over my whole body and mind. I couldn't do anything but just lay in bed and shake. I was nothing but dead meat. And what did I do? Got back on the opiates again. It was actually incredible, I want from a 10 to a 2 in just 10 minutes. So I am now back on HIGH doses of opiates. A few kinds, one being hydromorphone….the other, well…I "forgot" what it's called. Please, not everyone understands this. Some people use these drugs for recreational purposes. I use them simply to try and feel like a normal person. I just want my life back. I gave up on help from those at the VA.

So in about 3 weeks, I am going to start a sub detox program again. Last time was hell….I know how to do it, I spent days researching and reading and speaking with others who have done it as well as doctors. I know about the COWS scale and when to induce and what sups OTC I should take, etc. I decided to move somewhere far away and live in a secluded area. I no longer want opiates in my life. I have trouble focusing, concentrating, working, doing everything. My entire life is a total disaster because of my past troubles and all I've endured. Everything from war to wife to wounds of all sorts.

I guess what I really want to know is how I can make the WD sides easier on me. What I went through last time was hell….and swore I would never pick up another opiate again. But after my accident falling down the stairs because I couldn't feel my feet, legs, body, etc…I made the mistake and started up again.

And now that I am getting ready to do the sub program again…I am ever so scared of the sides and the WD. I really don't know if I will be able to manage it. Part of me has given up…I know that sounds bad, but thinking of going through this again is driving me crazy and scared out of my mind. I will never be one to "throw in the towel" and do something stupid to myself, but I was hoping there might be some new methods to aid in the WD process?

I was told if I ran a testosterone (steroids) cycle, it would help with the WD sides. I used anabolics in the past and am familiar with how to use and dose them. I don't know if this is true. I was told that inducing endorphins in my brain will help. Sex for example….I hear that can aid in the process. Have not dated or seen another woman since my wife left me, not sure if I'll be able to find a partner when I look and feel the way one does when in WD.

I guess I could call an old "friend" that would "help". Not really the kind of guy that calls lady companions off of an escort service….but if it will help. I was told laughter helps make endorphins….so do I watch comical movies? I heard exercise also helps in a MAJOR way…but last time, I was shaking and sweating and had the chills….I couldn't train, and I don't think I could become sexually active when I am in that state.

I wrote a bit much….any more ideas on how to make this detox easier on me would be a great help. Perhaps there are some new methods I have not heard of??? I refuse to do this crazy surgery and risk being put in a wheel chair for the rest of my life. I'd rather live with the pain all day….just get used to it I suppose. Thank you.

Z

This is my first post, I read all the rules and I really hope I didn't break any. If I did, please forgive me and mods, please revise or delete. Thank you all, and God Bless.

Dee74

Hi and welcoem Zorba

I have no experience to share but I wanted to acknowledge your post.
You'll find a lot of support understanding and encouragement here

thanks for your military service

D

AdelineRose

Welcome, and I'm so sorry for everything that has gone on..just wow you are ALOT stronger than you know. If you could handle 3 tours and everything that went on over seas and even in your personal life YOU CAN DO THIS.

I choose not to do a suboxone detox but am staying on suboxone for a while until I feel I have my life in order. I am 9 months sober off of heroin.

As for sex making you feel better, that is true...but most people I know that want to get some relief just masturbate since really all you need is to "get off" to get that temporary relief.

I have found learning breathing techniques to calm yourself helps. I also used meditation in the past to try to just not focus on the hell that was occurring.

Vitamins, staying SUPER hydrated, forcing yourself to eat, and forcing yourself to walk around help. If you can get into a hot bath or a hot tub that will help a lot also.

I have had a doctor prescribe xanex and valium to help me sleep (can be risky because they are very addictive but hey I was a heroin addict for 10 years I never saw risk In anything until I have been sober). Sleeping medicines can also be a big help.

Taking Tylenol and Alieve regularly can stop a little bit of some aches (although with all your other medical issues that might not be very effective).

Heating pads on back and legs can help calm you down. Listening to soft music, having Netflix to just have something play episode after episode after episode can be super helpful to just keep something decent on the T.V.

Usually doctors give blood pressure medicine to people who are withdrawing usually one called Clonidine and it actually helps a lot more then you would think.

Doctors also sometimes give Gabapentin which if you have a doctor that will prescribe it THAT WILL HELP THE MOST OUT OF EVETYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN.

When it comes down to it, nothing can make it go completely away but these tid bits used to help me get through withdrawel. If you are doing a sub detox after the first day day in a half you should be feeling pretty decent and by day 3 the subs should have to well. Then you slowly come off the subs but maybe staying on them could be an option for you? Only you know your body though.

I wish you luck, feel free to reach out to me If there is anything that you want to ask you can always private message me in case I don't see a comment here.

Good luck!

ZorbaTheGreek

Thank you for your kind words, sir. Yes, I will have plenty of benzos on hand. I actually took a great deal less last month, so that this month I would have a lot more on hand. They do help, but honestly...I can't tell the difference between 2mg and 8mg at a time. I am prescribed 2mg 4X a day, but can get away taking half of that with just a little awkwardness.

Tylanol will not help me...I wouldn't notice a thing. I have gaba on my list and did forget to mention it to my doctor. Clonidine for sure, that goes without saying. I have read a lot of studies where people are actually using subs for back pain relief. However, I don't want to trade one habit in for another. I never realized how powerful these medications were, I had no clue that they can completely take over someone's life in a matter of days/weeks. When I was at my peak when I was at the hospital, I kept pushing that button for relief I still have marks on my thumb from the button indentation. My body would tighten up and it would feel like someone was inserting a scolding hot knife into my back. But with the meds, I became relaxed, the knife was removed, I could focus, concentrate, eat, etc. But over time, I have noticed the damage it has done to me. How it has changed me as a person. Waking up and the first thing I do is reach for a pill box that is wrapped around my neck. I no longer get any more than 4 hours of sleep a day....I wake up from the pain.

I had one friend of mine suggest medicinal marijuana to take. I don't know if that is such a good idea though. The hotel I plan on checking myself into has a gym with treadmills, they also have a pool. BUT....I want to stay as active as possible and keep my mind as occupied as I can. Getting lost in a series of television shows is a good way for time to pass by, even reading is a great help but sometimes the silence bugs me out a bit. Soft music with dimmed lights are how I try and fall asleep.

Last time, I started off with 4mg of sub. A few hours later, I really didn't notice much of change...I didn't notice some of the sides go away, however....I took another 2mg and it made a big difference. So I am trying to decide if I should start at 8mg (that was my plan, but didn't have so much so I started at 4 but ended up using 6mg). I know some docs and clinics start you off on 8/16 and in some cases 24mg. I think that is a bit excessive. However, I really don't want to get hooked on this junk. I think it's a miracle drug to be honest, I tried cutting cold turkey.....no way in hell. Subs help a great deal.

I'm going to tell my doc I used Gaba before when I last used subs, do you mind if I ask how you think it's best used?

I am planning on booking a 3 night stay at the hotel....should I try and extend that visit? I was hurting for 5 days last time....but again, I was using a lot less sub because I only had a total of less than 30mg to work with. Believe it or not, I was actually left with 2mg at the end. I should of used the 2mg extra that I had on day one. I had cut those 4mg strips into .25 mg slices at the end. I did so before hand because I knew I would have the shakes and was seeing double in some cases.

If you can think of anything else to help me out with, PLEASE do let me know. Again, thank you all!!



Z

AdelineRose

So I have to start this off with "No medical advice I am not a doctor blah blah"

BUT as an addict to another addict..

The amount of pain medicine you are on...start at 8mg. Hell you could take 24 and there is no harm of you "taking too much"..common now let's be serious you aren't on perks... I would take 8mg and give it a good hour and half If I could wait that long and then if I still felt bad take 4mg more..repeat. Sometimes the first day you have to take a little bit more then you would need to take other days.

As for the gaba.. man you have been through the ringer and back something simple as "my back is killing me I have taken gabapentin before and it really has made a difference" and being your history and that they don't blink about giving you every medicine in the book gabapentin is not something that they are going to give you a problem about. Once again "I am not a doctor" but when I am withdrawing and feel like I am in the depths of hell taking about 3,000 mg and yes I mean 3,000 allows me to not feel like I might literally break my own leg just to be able to go to the hospital and demand something.

As for subs for pain relief, you aren't in that category. I don't care what people say, there is no way subs are going to give you pain relief from what you are saying. There is what doctors claim, and what we all know for the actual truth, and if you tried to use subs for pain relief... you'd end up with an extra dependence without the plus side of no pain.

Having benzos will help a lot, before I was prescribed Seroquel (an anti psychotic since I am bipolar) for sleep I used to take about 6 or 7 benedryl to try to fall asleep or a bottle of Zz quill..I know that could sound excessive but when you are sick and can't sleep and your staring at the wall hey you try things.

I can't think of anything else at the moment..I think all the main things are covered.

Oh 3 days might be cutting it pretty close 5-7 would be your best bet

ZorbaTheGreek

I was on seroquel for a few years, but I am off it. The last time I tried to detox, I made a big mistake of using it again. I was told (by several) that it would help with WD. That was sooooo wrong. It made me feel like crap until it was out of my system. I won't make that same mistake again.

About taking too much....I was only talking about the xanax I am on. 2 or 8mg, it feels the same. I was not talking about the subs. For sleep, I am going to get back on Rozerem....I was using it for a while. It takes a few weeks to begin working and I started it up again last week so when I'm in WD, hopefully I can get more than just 4 hrs a day of sleep with the extra benzos and Rozerem.

Benedryl doesn't knock me out like it does for some....not sure why. I use it all the time because I have a lot of food allergies. I can't eat most fruits or veggies, and if I do by mistake....my lips and throat swell up so I always have some on hand. Hell...even with pizza, if the sauce is too freshly made (usually a good thing) the sauce in the pizza will give me an allergic reaction. Sucks. So I am always on vitamin sups.

Seeing how I was a semi-pro body builder in my younger years, I often used anabolics from time to time. I was told by several and read that testosterone can help with WD. Same with human growth hormone. All of which I am very familiar with. I can't really find any conclusive data, but I know when one is on so many opiates for so long, test production drops. I've had mine tested and I have always leaned on the average side.

With that said, I am thinking about starting some anabolics and HGH as well. These take some time to begin working, depending on what anabolic I decide to use....so I need to find out rather soon if in fact they will help. There are both short and long acting (ester) forms of testosterone. If testosterone will help me, I can start using a long ester version now and it will start working when I am in WD. OR....I can simply use a very fast or a short acting ester kind of testosterone when I begin my sub treatment. What are your opinions on using anabolics and human growth hormone when trying to detox? I know that HGH will most certainly help with depression and help stimulate production of endorphins in me....I'm not trying new things, I have used both HGH and anabolics in the past. They both made me feel great, I just hope that they will help me when I start to detox. Thoughts?? Thanks!

ZorbaTheGreek

I was thinking 3 days at the hotel when I'm at my worst, and the rest of the time at home. I have a dog to care for. I can have someone go and feed her, but...I was hoping 3 days at the hotel would be OK than just ride the rest of it off at home...

Marcus

Welcome Zorba. Thanks for your service. I have detoxed off an IV heroin habit (up to 2 grams of raw a day) at least 20 times. It has been well over 4 years now since I touched an opiate. I have tried all the drugs you spoke of (Sub, Gaba, Benzo's, Seroquel, Clonidine). Also was on Methadone for a year and a half or so. Never heard anyone say steroids though. I know you suffer from pain so not saying I understand that part of it - I just used to get high and blot out life.

Anyway ever consider straight up cold turkey? For me Sub didn't seem to help that much until I was over the hump anyway. I would get a hotel room most times too because I didn't want my family to have to see me like that. Also did inpatient detox 4 times, but eventually liked the hotel room better because I could just be left alone. Didn't have a roommate or people trying to drag me to group while I was hurting.

You did 3 tours and have been declared dead! I would think a few days of tossing , turning, sweating, barfing up bile, and crapping in a hotel room would be a piece of cake. Yes I was anxious going into it, but if I had my mind made up I was going to get through it - it was completely doable. I pretty much knew how each hour was going to go and just had to ride it out.

Eventually getting off dope was the easy part. It was the staying off and living day to day that was hard for me. Sounds like you are mainly just dependent on the opiates which should mean once you clean up staying off might not be that bad. You will have to find some healthier ways to try to manage your pain. Good luck my friend. You can do this!!!

AdelineRose

I am a girl so I don't know anything about taking testosterone and have never taking steroids or known anyone that used them so I can't be any help there sorry.

3 days in the hotel and the rest at home will be perfect. Sometimes after the first couple days it is nice to have our pets around us anyway

Sounds like you have most things covered hopefully someone who knows about steroids and testosterone will come along to answer about that!

Marcus

You still with us Zorba? I hope the hotel / detox worked out for you. Either way check in dude!

ZorbaTheGreek

I'm here fellas....the day after tomorrow I begin. I have been away from the boards because every time I think about it, I start having a damn panic attack. I have most of my stuff together....I'm just really really dreading this. I have knots in my stomach. I know what lies ahead of me....and the thought alone kills me. But, it's a battle I must fight. I will be back again before I am induced. Thanks for the help everyone....God Bless.

ZorbaTheGreek

I know how subs work, I know they are a stronger opiate. Forgive me fellas, I am trying to explain myself the best I can. I'm seeing info left and right and some of it gets a bit confusing. This AM I took my dilaudid and my occasional oxy as the weather really had my back in pain when I woke up. I probably should not have taken my oxy as it has a longer half life...I had just woken up and took it without thinking because I was in such a rush to seek relief from pain. So now my I have a slightly longer acting opiate in my as well as my dilaudid. So I may have to adjust my math here. As of now, if I take nothing more....I will be have gone without ANYTHING for 22 hours. I think that by hour 22...I will be DEEP in WD and probably closer to a 30 on the COWS. I don't think I ever went 22 hours before. BUT...since I took the oxy, it might take some more time. Last time I waited 12 hours and it worked.

When I first took subs, I started to feel a bit better a few hours after I took 4mg. I was still very uncomfortable, so I believe I took another 2mg if I recall. I did feel a great deal better withing 4-5 hours after taking it. But I was in no way out of the woods.

Tomorrow is when I am going to get induced and I only took my AM dose today at 12. My appointment is tomorrow at 10. So I am going to do my very very best not to take anything for 22 hours. I remember last time that by the 11th hour I just wanted to jump off a cliff. It was horrific.

My fear is that I might be waiting too long. 22 hours is A LONG time for me. I know I won't be able to get any sleep tonight. After 8 hrs or so...I really start to feel like >>>>. Is 22 hours too long? I have read that I should wait at least 12 hours with dilaudid, but I took oxy as well as I usually do when the weather is humid and my back swells up...but I want to play it safe, be as sick as possible without doing any damage before I start the sub dose at 10am tomorrow. Right now, I am 19 hours away and I feel fine. But in a few hours...I know I'm in for hell.

Should I just hold off on everything for the next 19 hours, or should I take a final dose once before I go....say 14, 15, 16 hours before? Obviously, if I'm not at 26 at the docs office...I won't induce. I'll just sit in a room until I reach that living hell than induce. 22 hrs is very long to go without anything...and I fear it might be too long. Thoughts???

Thoughts? I'm 19 hours away....and just thinking about it is getting me all anxious. Shall I dose once again or just fight it out? If I don't take anything, it will be 22 hours without anything. Please let me know ASAP. THANKS!!!

Marcus

Let us know how it goes Zorba. Based on the time of your post you should already be at your doctor and hopefully induced. Hopefully your doctor told you what was safe and how long to wait. Obviously COWS isn't perfect and I was always better off waiting a little longer versus inducing too early. Take care my friend :-) !!!

ZorbaTheGreek

Hell...sheer hell.

This is where I am at...I'll do my best to be brief and quick because I don't know how much longer I will be able to be on a computer and see straight.

Today was the day to induce.

I waited 25 hours....I went to the doc, and I still did not reach a 26 on the COWS sheet. She didn't even know what the COWS sheet was.

So, she wanted me to go get a script filled, and induce at home when I pass the 26 on the COWS.

I pick up the subs, I go home...and wait about 26 hours total. I reached 29-30 on the COWS sheet. She wanted to induce me with 8mg. I told her I would rather cut that dose in half....maybe more. She said fine.

Before I continue...I have never been so disrespected in my life. Everywhere I go, my family, friends, strangers....all thank me for my service. I don't go around boasting about what I've done. But it feels good to know there are Americans that actually care and support our troops.

This doctor.....was so rude. No respect. I was not even allowed to ask a question. She wouldn't look me in the eye....only to look at my pupils. I told her I was not a 26 yet....she looked at me like I had 3 heads. She had NO CLUE was the COWS sheet is. She said she induces patients by the size of their pupils. That's it. She bragged that she took a special class to dispense this medication....yet had no clue what the COWS was. She knew I was a decorated soldier....and I believe that is why I was shown such disrespect. No care, no humanity, and extremely rude. I'm one of the kindest men you will ever meet...and out of respect for the doc that I knew for 30 years who referred me to her, I kept my cool.

I had several questions I wanted to ask....about the gaba, clonidine, lope, etc. etc. She would not give me any gaba or clonidine. She said it was not needed. She left the room....had me wait there for an hour and she said she forgot I was still here. Meantime, I'm in sheer pain, sweating, feeling ill, had to use the restroom. And I know why she treated me like this. She is from the middle east...and one of the nurses there told me that she "does not like soldiers". I honestly felt like I was being treated like some kind of rapist. Anyway...moving on.

At hour 25+, I was really in deep so at 5pm today, I took 4mg....half of what she wanted to start me out on. I probably should of taken 2...wait, than another 1 or 2. But I was 100% sure I was ready to start. Sadly...I was wrong.

After I took the 4mg of subs, I figured I should start to notice a little relief...as I once did in the past, especially using 4mg. Nope...in about 20 minutes, my world was rocked upside down. I thought death was upon me. I got deep WD. I couldn't feel my face, hands, feet....was throwing up, I felt like I have never felt before. I have seen several kinds of hell....but this hell was by far the darkest I have ever seen.

I get on line....I wasn't going to call the doctor because she was clueless. I did try though, left a voice mail...never heard back from her or from the service. Wasn't shocked.

On line, I read that if you slip into pre WD...you can take an opiate to feel better. However, the few sources that I read all said that the dose has to be large, and it will not last that long. I was vomiting violently. So....with my head down, I took a heavy dose of dilaudid using another ROA. I only do that maybe once every other month if I have a fall or injury. So I took about 80mg or so. And in about 20 mins...I felt normal. I did so at around 8pm. It's now almost 12 and I feel fine.

At that point when the WD was so bad, not 100% sure if it was the smart move....but I felt better. Now...am I feeling better from the dose of dilaudid that I took....or am I feeling better now from the 4mg of subs that I took at 5pm? I don't know.

Right or wrong....I did it. I said to myself, try it....or go to the ER. So I tried it and feel better. I just don't understand why I went into PWD after 25 hours on a short acting opiate. I didn't think that was possible.

So this is where I stand. I'm going to try and sleep soon...maybe take an extra 2mg of alprazolam to help me stay asleep, even though I sometimes get the opposite effect. Happens when being on benzos for over 25 years I guess.

I just need to know what my game plan is for tomorrow. Do I wake up and take a small dose of say..... .5mg of sub to see what happens? Or...do I have to start all over, wait to hit 26 on the COWS sheet, than start subs again?

Am I feeling "OK" now because of the 4mg subs....of from the shot of dilaudid? I don't know. I just need to know what course of action to take tomorrow. I mean...I believe the subs stay active with me for some 36 hrs. or so? Do I have to induce again all over? My doc wants me to take 2mg 3X a day. Again....far too much IMHO. I was thinking 1mg 3 X a day for the next 2 days, than go 1mg 2X a day...and slowly taper off. I just need to know if I have to induce all over, or have I been induced and should just take small doses until it's all over with.

Please, if someone could shed some light on this for me tonight....I would really appreciate it. I hope I will be able to sleep....I will have my computer on hoping someone can chime in and give me some advice. Those that did take an opiate when in WD after inducing too soon, said they were OK. But I don't know if they had to start over or just start taking small doses of sub. Thank you all so much....God Bless.