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Old 11-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Suboxone...heave or hell?

I just started suboxone several days ago after 6-7 years of daily opiate use. At the time of going on subs I was taking around 300-500 mg of hydro/oxy. Now I am reading all these blogs on subs and it seems people are ripping them for the harsh withdrawal. I'm on day 5, my dr told me plan on at least a year. I'm wondering is it possible to taper down to a VERY low dose, say .25 mg per day? Than maybe use tremadol to deal w any overwhelming side effects? Anyone on subs what are your opinions on suboxone itself?
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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S/R doesn't seem to have a large number of respondents under suboxone use. I've been asking your same question here, and at many other sites. Have yet to receive a response.
I guess I'm the only one to have enough experience with this to give a response. The only problem is. I have not totally quit using suboxone. Maybe that's the problem. No one else has quit using the taper method. I did not take nearly the dose of codones you were. I have tapered my suboxone use .25-.50 mgs. Depends on the dicey cut. However, I still use within a 4 day period. I'm sure I could jump now, but I do not want to experience any withdrawal effect. So I am taking the very long slow taper.Skipping 3 days and I had some muscle cramps in the stomach, etc. I'll let you know how this goes as I get bolder.
I've been on sub's for about a year now. If your still less than a couple of weeks using sub's and have overcome the codone w/d's, now would be a good time to get out, if you can do so without relapse.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Suboxone seems to get a bad rap around here and there is definitely a reason for that, but I also think people who have successfully come off don't necessarily come here to report about it. The people who have stuggled or abused it do. You definitely can't just take suboxone without doing any other kind of support and expect to just walk away. If you get support and do it right and taper slowly once you hit 2mg it can definitely be done without too much discomfort. When you jump off at 6 or 8 mgs of course you are going to feel like crap.

I came off of 8mgs (not really by choice) and the withdrawals were not fun, but they were nowhere near as bad as heroin withdrawals. I was still able to go to work and function, but felt pretty dam terrible and it lasted a bit longer than typical opiate withdrawals.

That being said you need to do some research on your own. Need to get some outside support. Figure out some ways to cope with life that doesn't involve checking out. Personally I think doctors start people on way too high a dose. Suboxone is very strong. That is why you hear of people taking like 1/4 mg and it being enough to hold them. I am not saying doctors should prescribe 1/4mg, but 20mg+ seems crazy to me. I was doing insane amounts of H and 12mg was plenty. It is meant to help with cravings not make you feel out of it. But as always find a doctor you trust. Ask questions. If you don't feel comfortable ask more questions, but of course you need to follow their advice in the end.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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with my experience with suboxone.. maintaining on it has it's pros and cons.

the pro being.. it will help get ur mind back to a sober state. meaning you won't be living a lifestyle of chasing pills or needles.

but the con is, is that if u stay on it for a while, you will experience withdrawal symptoms, which usually are milder but longer in duration.

i've done both. i did a short suboxone taper of 21 days and i had physical withdrawal symptoms linger for 15 days. but then again, i was sticking half a gram of pure heroin into my arms.

i recently did a short 3 day suboxone taper and i have to say it was too short and had no impact on my outlook on things.

i'm currently also on day 2 of cold turkey.

good luck!!!
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't know if I really have any business given advice on suboxone or not due to my brief use of them but I'll give my personal thought on them. I believe ( and this is my belief alone) its like trading one addiction for another with the only change being the differents in the way they make you feel and the time it takes to wd and get to back to some what of a normal life. Subs offer you the chance to stop and take a breather from haveing to worrie about when you will need to take your next dose due to there longer life span and don't give the high feeling effect when taken at the right dosage. While some other forms of oppied based meds dont last as long and make you feel as if you have to constantly chaseing the high feeling to keep from going into wd. But with the use of subs comes with a hefty price! The time it takes to wd from subs is much long than other opieds but in most cases dose not take you completely out of commission like wd from percs and vics would. With a busy life style like a full time job and family most people cannot aford the down time needed to go through wd and other people just the thought of wd scares the he'll out of
them! So with the main hope of any treatment is to be come free and sobber and with some form of wd almost unavoidale, the question is which could you
deal with better?
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Thank you everybody. All the comments where very insightful. I can't say I know much about withdrawal other than by reading about it and the waiting to induce suboxone. I've been on for about 9 days now and reduced myself to 4 mg. with the extremely long half life it's hard to determine how much to take. Day 1 was 16 mg and I have just been taking less and less everyday. I must admit its great not fretting over running out of pills. I think at the point I was at H was right around the corner. Idk I hope I can keep dropping sub Mgs at the rate I have. I do plan to taper to crumbs, not jump off at anything over .5/.25 mg. Again I really appreciate all the comments and insight from those of you who have traveled this road. Peace
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Sub good luck to you man. You are a strong mofo to be able to cold turkey. Much respect.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Dang! Congrats on stayin on those subs for so long! And I mean that.

For some reason I couldn't get myself to stay on cuz I always knew I could get my DOC.

That takes some determination and it seems like u got it!

I think it's good that ur doing a fast taper as you will probably face minimal withdrawals that way... They might be dragged out a few more days but I remember it being manageable.

If u can.. U should start exercising while on the suboxone to get ur body in shape.

I found that being in good health helps tolerating the withdrawals a lot more.

Ur already at 9-10 days.

We are on the same boat basically.

So... Don't let me catch up with u! Haha

I hope u stay 7 days ahead of me... Til the end!!!

Stay strong.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:26 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi, I am a newbie here on this site but SO glad I found it.. I was hooked on the 100 mcg.'s of Fentanyl patches and got so tired of them so wanted to try the Sub treatment.. OK I will be honest and say NO I was not in full withdrawals when I went (Sat. and today is Monday) and when they gave my first dose I became immediately sick, started puking, I felt so cold inside..Just so many weird feelings..Hell the damn doc didn't even know what to do so he called his nurse in.. He put me on 3 of the 8 mg.'s daily and after my first dosing I slept literally for 2 days.. I am still a bit nauseaus and feel sluggish and kinda weird.. I just wondered if this is a normal thing and just how long will it take the fentanyl to get out of my system.. I KNOW the patches were still in my system on my first dose and that is why I got so sick but still unable to eat along with the other symptoms I mentioned above..I've all ready introduced myself in the "Newbie "Forum" and would like some help as far as getting used to subs, am I still having withdrawal's from the Fentanyl, when the withdrawals will go away..Well just so much to ask ..Oh one more thing I wanted to mention is this weird tingling sensation I am having in my muscles too.. PLEASE help and Thanks and I sincerely appreciate it
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Cheyxox these symptoms are NOT normal and you need to consult your doctor.
If your doctor can't give you answers, then you need to go to a different doctor.
You got sick in the waiting room and the DOCTOR didn't know what to do and had
to get a nurse to figure it out? That would kind of make me worry.

If you took your dose and then slept all day sounds like your dose is too high. At only 100mg of fent. a day you shouldn't need a high dose of suboxone. (I'm not trying to give medical advise just saying that maybe you should get a different opinion if this continues to happen).

If you are on the right dose you shouldn't feel anything. You shouldn't be in w/d symptoms, you shouldn't be tired, or feel any kind of high. You are just supposed to feel normal. Maybe write a journal of how you feel before a dose, after a dose, and how you feel as the day goes on and if your doctor just shrugs you off well then that is up to you but I would get a different doctor. Having a doctor you trust is REALLY important expecially when it comes time to start tapering. If this doctor doesn't know what to do when you throw up what will he do when you come in there asking for info on tapering?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Cheyxox the subs are meant to relieve w/d symptoms. From what you said I think you put yourself into precipitated withdrawals. Google that if you don't know what I'm talking about.
You have to wait until your almost into fullblown w/d's until you take your suboxone dose. Usually 24-36 hrs, but depends on your dosage and amount of time you've been on fent's.
I agree with Maylie. Sounds like a very high dose of subs in a day and it's no wonder your feeling quite sick. You should be much better by the time I hear from you again. Then we can go go into sub usage after things calm down.
Best to you. Talk soon.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Cheyxox88, I'm new to suboxone treatment, too. I went from 4-500mg oxy per day onto suboxone. My doc said I only needed to not use for 12 hours before I started subs, but if I was on fent patches (which I've also used) that I needed to wait 48 hours before going on subs. Sounds like you didn't get that long and probably did go into precipitated withdrawals. I agree with Maylie and Ollie's advice, too.

My doc also started me slowly, I went in for two full days and a partial day and he started me at 8 mgs. After lunch the first day wd's started hitting hard and he increased dose again. It was a slow steady increase which I think is probably the best way to go.

I sat in the clinic all day, sweating, shivering and being totally knocked out by the subs but am really glad I was right there where my doc kept checking in on me. Like others said, you might want to look at other practitioners if possible.

I'm getting used to subs, not being so knocked out by it. For me it has been a big change going from oxy to subs. Emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually. It's not an easy miracle cure. It's a way to start getting a grip on living without dope, snorting, needles, whatever. And that is a huge transformation process.

I am grateful for subs but am definitely struggling. I have lots of pain issues which have totally resurfaced and subs really doesn't address. I guess I'm saying all of this to say that your experience may not really be unusual. I think those who have softer transitions are probably unusual.

Hang in there.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Now on day 18. Still doing 4mgs of subs. Find myself fantasizing about oxy and having some trouble dealing with anger and sadness w/o pills. I'm staying on subs ultimately and was hoping I would be going with less this far in. I guess lyoness post struck a chord with me. I feel for someone who has real pain issues. I was thinking about that today. Wtf do you do if you have to have a major surgery or anything where you really need painkillers? Anyways , good luck all. Stay strong
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:58 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Hope, I just went through surgery to have my gallbladder removed. I had to be in pain and nausea for 3 weeks before the surgery could be done. My doctor's knew I was an addict. I did receive a script for Norco's and took them appropriately. Half of the script got thrown out after I was having little to no pain. I would have had my husband dole them out if needed but he was watching me and checking on me.

I was scared that I would relapse but I made it.

My doctor offered me suboxone treatment to stay off opiates. I didn't take him up on it BUT if I relapse one more time will consider it in the future.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Just wanted to update. It has now been 3.5 months On subs. I have gotten myself down to taking 2mg per day. I have not relapsed despite plenty of opportunity. That's one good thing about being on sub. Anyways I will continue to ween myself down. I feel pretty good all in all but do seem more depressed than before. Anyways here are the stats this far. 7 years of painkiller use 400 mg per day at peak. 3.5 mo on subs. Starting dose 16mg , 2mg a day as of today. Good luck to all peace
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Hello Hope. I was on the subs for over a year. Got down to 2mgs a day like yourself. The sub treatment really worked for me. I'm totally clean now. I feel great and there's a sense of accomplishment as well. Of course talk to your doctor when you decide to kick it all. I'll be more than happy to share how I got out with very little withdrawals.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Wow. Reading this thread really freaked me out. I already pretty much knew this but I didn't realize just how extreme a case mine has been. But the first thing I wanted to say to the person having nausea and difficulty eating is that you might be allergic to our intolerant of naloxone. The buprenorphine itself is the opiate agonist that fills the receptors and stops the withdrawal and cravings - the naloxone is just there to act as an antagonist and both keep people from abusing it by injecting it (when it was ask still in pills) and to keep you from being able to get high. But some people are allergic to naloxone, I am one of them. I was started out on 16mg Suboxone t hen whenI still had cravings was raised to 32mg a day. And in the beginning, if I took extra ones, I could feel a little bit better than normal (normal f or me, which is depressed). So I was taking sometimes over 60mg a day. I thought the nausea and gastroparesis (paralysis of the stomach) were just side effects I had to live with. My stomach got so bad I literally could only eat baby food and mashed potatoes and scrambled eggs, and that was even just tiny amount at a time, even when I took only the prescribed amount. If I ate real food, it just sat there in my stomach and didn't digest and eventually all soured and made me incredibly nauseated. I could eat a serving of a cooked vegetable and a half piece of chicken for dinner at 7pm and the next morning at 11 or whenever I got up, I would still feel full and bloated and be sick. I'd make myself throw up and everything I'd eaten 18 hours earlier would still be there unchanged. I had all kinds of tests done and even was told I had gallbladder diseas and had surgery to remove it. I don't know when I finally made the link but I eventually realized that it was the suboxone causing the problem. I bought this up over and over and finally was allowed to switch to plain Subutex (without the naloxone) and the stomach problems got about 70 percent better right away. (I don't know if the continuing problems are from the buprenorphine or because the naloxone had already damaged my stomach beyond repair. But now no nausea: I can eat most things and it just takes a while longer to go through. If you are still having stomach problems including acid reflux or indigestion or nausea, try to get them to let you switch to subutex. They don't like to because it is pure buprenorphine and as such could be snorted or injected, but I've never considered trying either. Trust me, it's not pworth ruining your entire digestive system. I now have GERD and Barrett's Esophagus (a pre-cancerous state if the lining of the esophagus) from throwing up so much acidic stuff so often for so long.


I have been on these meds four years now! I was never told that there would be s long, difficult struggle to get off it, it that I would have to taper or told must people only stay on it a short time. I was told it was usually a couple of years or three seven and that some people needed tutu stay in it for life.

My doctor doesn't k now it but I have tapered myself down to just 8mg a day yet that last several months. (I would have switched long ago but he's the only game in my area.) I believe he would keep me coming in e every month for an office visit and drug test for another four years if I stood for it.
Etat
OTOH in a way it has been good-there have been many times I would probably have thought I HAD to take narcotics for pain (surgery, dental implants) and might have relapsed if I'd taken it. Instead I found out that ibuprofen actually really works pretty well and that being in pain us very unpleasant but it s will not kill me and I can tolerate a lot more pain than I thought I could.

The Subutex is still my opiates safety net. I still have emotional issues that haven't been dealt with and probably will never be fully resolved. As long as I am l "protected" I don't have to use will power to stay away from opiates. That's not how I want things to have to be but it's better than taking 8 Percocet a day.

I'll probably try to always keep a back supply if it, even after I'm off it. My opiate withdrawal s were so bad I came close to suicide many times. Not the physical stuff, that I can take, but the emotional pain was what was unbearable. I have some kind of genetic neurotransmitter dysfunction so I'm always starting out a few levels below a "normal" baseline. When I go down, it is waaaaay down.

Sorry this is so long, I meant to just tell people about the possibility of stomach issues with naloxone and got carried away.

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Old 02-19-2013, 08:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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ThaNks Ollie , I'm def interested in this information since my end game is being on nothing. How hong did you spend tapering? How low of a dose did u go before you stopped taking any subs? How where the withdrawals you experienced? No rush but when you have time this info would be much appreciated. Thanks again peace
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:04 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I actually got out with very little withdrawals. Took suboxone for approx. a year or so. Started with 8 mgs, quickly reduced to 4mgs, then to 2 mgs. Just kept reducing to 1 mg, then skipping days to .50 mgs. This was all in a 7 month time frame. Slowly but surely. Started skipping up to 3 to 4 days and dose .50mgs. I never felt much withdrawal doing this. Maybe a little lethargic at most. But I've felt that when sober. I didn't leave myself high and dry. Just take everything until your out, then withdraw. Not the way to go. I had saved some vicodens and a strip of suboxone. I finally just quit. On day 5 I was feeling some withdrawals, so took a few vicodens, because I didn't want to feel any withdrawals. That worked. Dosed 20-30mgs of vics when needed for a couple of weeks. Quit those and in day or so felt very sluggish. Just allowed myself to feel that way for a day, while at work to boot. Then took my last few doses of subs. It's been awhile now, and I didn't really experience any kind of withdrawal. When I ran out of oxycodones over a year ago. I never want to go through that again. Once again, talk to your doctor. I kept mine totally informed. Best to everyone dealing with this. I've been clean for over a few months now. It can be done.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Congtulations on making it, Ollie! We all definitely need to read more positive stories like yours, helps give us hope!

I'm halfway through my subs taper and it's been a rough ride. A big part of the problem for me has been my subs doctor. He's just not very supportive, not very forthcoming. He's the kind of guy who'd rather confer with his "equals"--other docs--rather than just be really clear and informative to his patient, me. I'm the type who needs a very informative and caring doctor, so this poor match between us has made things immeasurably worse.

I've been struggling with sudden, deep, suicidal depression the past few weeks, couldn't figure it out. A knowledgeable friend thought it was a bad case of PAWS. I felt angry that my doc didn't tell me this.

Well, finally the other day I got him to talk and he said that me being on subs is basically being in chronic withdrawals! That sucks! I told him my understanding--not from him cuz he won't answer questions--was that subs was supposed to PREVENT PAWS, not drag it out. I really could have used this information going on, like three months ago. Sh*t! What kind of doc is this anyway?

He also finally told me that he thinks I'm having Depression unrelated to going off opiates/PAWS. Would have been nice to have that information weeks/months ago, too. I'd go to someone else but he's the only game in town. The other subs doc is an hour away and is an addict himself (which I don't mind) and a sexual harasser (as in drugging his female employees among other things) which I really, really do mind. One of the disadvantages of living in a small rural area.

Anyway, I am concerned about how my subs taper will ultimately go and if I'll stay in "chronic withdrawal" afterward. THat really freaks me out. Thankfully I"ve been saving some to have when I'm through with doctor subs in case I need to do the .5 or .25 thing for awhile.
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