Hello & my subutex taper plan

[seelivemusic]

Hello, so glad I found these forums and I will be sure to pass the address along to some other folks I know. I've been on subutex for 8 months and it saved my life but my plan has always been to taper at some point. I started at 24mg, then 16mg, 12mg, and now 8mg once a day.

Since subutex has such a long half life my plan is to spread my taper over a few months so that both my body and mind can deal with it. Next month I plan to cut to 6mg, then 4mg, 2mg, 1mg, and finally .5mg. I have read that for some people the hardest part of the taper is from 1mg - .5mg - 0mg so I was wondering if I could take my subutex every other day because of its long half life ant that might make things easier on my body and mind.

Again, glad I've found yet another recovery resource!

[Dee74]

Hi seelivemusic
Welcome.

Are you seeing a doctor? Those are good questions to put to them.

We can't give medical advice but we do share our experience here - I have no experience of Subutex, but others will be along

D

[seelivemusic]

Dee74, thanks for the input I should have added a few things.

I am seeing a doctor for subutex treatment and while I will follow his guidelines I am looking for others experiences as well. While I respect my doctor and really like him, he hasn't been thru a sub taper and may not have been addicted to opiates.

[cjsg]

When I was taking suboxone I had a hard time following instructions for the first week or so. I had to literally, let my doctor take the wheel. He was good to me...always consulted with me when planning and starting a taper. I deferred to his judgment one time when I thought I was ready for a taper and h e thought it better to not do so. I learned that his objective point of view can be invaluable. Sometime we feel willing and ready to do things that that other may see that it might be more prudent to slow down a bit... or speed up a bit...whatever. I think it is wise to allow your doctor to treat you... it seems like you have your whole taper planned out beforehand. i don't know if that is wise. Should you have a say in your treatment??? most definitely, but you shouldnt be calling all the shots alone. My treatment was best carried out step by step in complete communication with my doctor with no premature tapers. I made the choice to allow my doctor to do his job and give his suggestion an honest and decent go of things because my past decisions regarding drugs showed me that I hadn't a clue. Wanting to taper and get off suboxone is great But take it one step at a time.. and take each step in its proper place. This is just what I learned from my 2 and a half month experience on suboxone. it worked perfectly for me..but only when I followed instructions.. beginning tapers on your own might lead to failure. not always...but it could happen. You could feel you are ready when in fact you aren't. Anyway, that just my opinion. i wish you luck. Suboxone worked really well for me and I am thankful to my doctor.

The hardest taper for me was from 4mg to 2 mg. Every step down after that was nice and slow..and deliberate. I had no significant discomfort, but a few annoying cravings from 7 to 14 days clean.

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by seelivemusic

I was wondering if I could take my subutex every other day because of its long half life ant that might make things easier on my body and mind.

slm,
Welcome to SR. I have never tapered bupe to numbers nearly as low as 1mg and .5mg. So, I have no personal experience to share. I have read of others doing the "every other day" thing for tapers. It makes sense that the long half-life would make that possible.

I must say that I agree 100% with your idea that dosing every other day could be a wonderful psychological boost: "Hey, look at that! I went an entire day without taking anything!" Yep! It sure sounds like a psychological shot in the arm for recovery (no pun intended).

[seelivemusic]

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate them. I do plan to listen to my doc first and foremost but I am also looking to learn from others personal experiences.

It has been my decision to seek suboxone treatment thru a professional after much research and discussion with others. I never planned to be on suboxone for ever and it was always my intention to taper after a year on maintenance. If I am wrong and cannot deal with life without suboxone, the door is always open for me to return.

I am addicted to alcohol as well and I don't think I would have been able to stay sober without this suboxone program. I certainly don't think I would be looking at 9 months of sobriety next month without some type of maint program.

[NEC4]

Hey, don't know if you are still checking this, but I tapered off subutex. I did it slowly, dropping by 2mg per month or every 2 months. Getting down to 2mg's was easy, but after that any smaller dose made me go into withdrawals! I am pregnant (reason I'm on subutex instead of suboxone) and I did it! I made the jump from 2 mg's! I know your doctor has to be the one to advise you, and they usually know what's best. People on here or other forums may say that doctors just want their patients $$ so they keep them addicted, but I beg to differ. I think you have to get really tired of the subutex/suboxone and be ready.

My withdrawal experience: day 1 fine, day 2 starting to get the hot/cold thing, sneezing, crawly skin, can't sleep, diarhea (mild), all of these were very tolerable I kept thinking when are they gonna get bad, day 3 the same, day 4 thru 12 diarhea once daily, mild stomach pains, NO ENERGY, no sleep, day 13 a lit'l more energy and a lit'l more sleep, day 14 more energy than day before and diarhea once slept for about 6 hours last nite as opposed to the 1-2 hours all the nights before, day 15 today diarhea once more energy.....

My doctor REALLY did not want me to quit! She was scared I would start using other stuff while pregnant which would be more harmful to the baby. I quit because I didn't want to put my baby through withdrawals! After the delivery, can I say what will happen with me and my drug use or suboxone? No! If I wasn't pregnant would I have quit? Prob. not! I hope I won't go back down that all consuming road again though! The clouds have parted and the sun is shining through! That clarity you get when the old drugs out and subutex/suboxone is in, gets even clearer without sub.!

[tsmba]

Glad you were able to taper. Hopefully that works for you. I would caution you about thinking "I can always go back". That may be true to some extent, but we can never be certain that we will make it back with sanity and/or health intact. The other point I disagree with is that final statement about seeing life with greater clarity sans suboxone. You may or may not have been implying that being on suboxone somehow diminishes quality of life.

There is an entire range of outcomes for those of us on maintenance, none of which are dependent on our dose or how long we have been on the drug. Our ultimate goal is long-term sobriety and stability, no matter how it is achieved. For some, tapering down or off of suboxone is possible, and that is wonderful. However, those who require dosage changes or need to continue the meds are in no way diminished. It takes whatever it takes.

I would suggest paying close attention to your recovery program in the coming months and years. Discontinuing maintenance and having a child are two extremely stressful life events that leave you vulnerable. Obviously, your doc had concerns about your decision. Taking all of those together make it especially crucial to remain vigilant.

[NEC4]

Thank you for your comments! I AM an addict and don't think I was "mentally" prepared to quit taking it! I believe my doctor is wise. I also believe I can survive a few months without caving in, but if I don't subutex is the safest way according to my doctor. I have said in another post that I have read on forums where people say the doctors are just wanting $$ trying to hook people on suboxone= trading one addiction for another! I could not DISAGREE more! I believe suboxone is an indefinite help for those with addiction, and I personally know I would still be taking it if I weren't pregnant. I am trying to be careful though and not put too much faith in myself, just trying to survive the next few months! I in no way judge or think someone's quality of life is less due to suboxone being their lifelong treatment. Coming from a long line, on both sides of my family, of addicts I would NOT even be willing to say, "Well, if you are absolutely going to be on something, suboxone is the lesser of the two evils! Being an addict vs. suboxone treatment oh choose suboxone".

As for the statement I made about "seeing life with more clarity" let me clarify: my mind was so messed up from the med's I was taking before suboxone treatment that I could think more clearly on it. Maybe it was because I was less stressed (not having to worry about getting my next fix, people finding out, etc.) or maybe it was the plain and simple fact all those other drugs were out of my system and only suboxone was there. Regardless, there is a crispness/clarity to my thoughts and senses now. I noticed it about 2 days after I quit the subutex. Maybe it's a pregnancy thing? Maybe it's because I was stressed about taking it during pregnancy? Not sure! You say you disagree with my point "about seeing life with greater clarity sans suboxone", if this is not the case for you because you took it, weaned, and were no less "clear" then I believe you. I believe I could get to a point where I crave drugs, worry so much about taking them again, or a host of many other reasons that my quality of life would be better on suboxone...might be there in a split moment!! My personal experience at this point (this exact moment) is that I honestly believe I have greater clarity.

I'd also like to ask, what do you mean when you say, "I would caution you about thinking 'I can always go back'"?. I'm hoping you mean the road back may be dangerous if I go back to using other stuff before subutex/suboxone? Am I gonna go insane because I don't have anything in my system? I believe you have great advice and understand addiction, so I'm asking this with all sincerity.

And thank you for the statement about it being crucial to remain vigilant! I was actually shocked at the fact that my brain has already tried to talk me into taking narcotics so soon! So I am trying to prepare for the worse and get some support!

[tsmba]

Good discussion you started!

What do I mean about the notion that buprenorphine will be there if needed? A lot of patients say similar things, kind of along these lines: "I'm OK now, but I know bupe will be there if I need it". That kind of statement is a projection, and assumes that the individual's current way of thinking will be in place at a future date. This may or may not be true, but it seems to ignore the progressive nature of our disease and our own faulty thought processes.

The term "progressive" regarding addictions means that our disease marches on whether or not we use. It was explained to me like this: if I quit using today, stay clean ten years, then start again, my disease will pick up as though I had continued using those ten years. Not a pleasant proposition, by any means! I (of course in my infinite wisdom) discounted that whole notion...until I resumed drinking after eight years of sobriety. That relapse lasted less than 48hrs, but was utterly terrifying.

My first sponsor (now deceased) told me that times would come when the only thing standing between me and a relapse would be the strength of the program I chose to work. Like most things I'd hear from oldtimers, I felt that it would never be true for me, then learned (the hard way) that they were correct. There are many realities to being an addict that are tough to swallow. The disease marches on but, if we follow some simple steps, we can live wonderful lives a day at a time. These concepts are so easy to say, but SO difficult to practice!

[NEC4]

I think that I understand what you are saying!? The "faulty thinking" is part of my problem. I know that I still have the mentality that the drugs (whichever ones) will always be there for me, but in reality I know they are dangerous for me. It's that first part. I realize that I have to face why I think they'll be there for me if I NEED them. It feels sooooo good to check out! It's so selfish though and even destructive to me. When I read comments that say something along the lines of, "your brain will always crave opiates", I think to myself, "well I guess I'm eventually going to cave in...can I really fight this forever?". My doctor has told me that it's not just convincing yourself they are bad for you, but why do you think you NEED them! In all honesty I really don't know the answer to that!

[tsmba]

I think one of the toughest challenges in recovery is coming to terms with the disease concept. This is where one of the paradoxes of the program helps immensely: the notion that when we surrender, we are freed. Of course, this cannot be a single event, it must be ongoing. No one wants to have a fatal disease, but there is a way to cope and live a good life.

It took many years and several bad relapses to finally admit deep down that my thinking was at fault. I had to learn that I was my own worst enemy. I cringed at the idea of meetings and I certainly did NOT want to get a sponsor. I could list endless reasons why I was an exception to what I was told I must do. This kind of thinking is what they call "terminal uniqueness" and it truly is a killer.

I think everyone who has been at it awhile feels frustrated when dealing with newcomers. We recognize erroneous thinking because that was exactly how we thought. I used to envy some of the oldtimers who seemed so laid-back and peaceful, and I wanted what they had.....but, of course, in my own way. It fosters a good deal of gratitude when you get lucky enough to survive your own screwy thought processes!

[seelivemusic]

Thought I'd check in as its been almost a year. I really wanted to taper down from subutex last year but my doc convinced me to wait a bit longer. I'm now down to 6mg/day and then 4mg/day, then 2mg/day, then 1mg/day, then 1mg/every other day. Hopefully I will be subutex free by the spring of 2011.

One thing I've noticed in reducing my dosage is that I really feel it if I miss a dose. Previously I could skip a day without any problem whatsoever but now I just can't do that. I want to get off this medication but I know that if there is a decision to be made between taking heroin and getting back on subutex that I will always choose the subutex.

[snowman76]

Good to hear your taper is working successfully SLM. I don't have any experience with subutex but I was able to successfully taper off of Methadone. But I'm sure they are similar as far as taking them very slowly and to not "rush" the taper. October 1st makes 5 months for me!