relaspe is part of recovery????

[heatherette]

i was clean 20 days and have been relapsing and am on my second day of detox once again from heroin only difference this time is i started using my arms instead of my lungs to get loaded. i was just looking for some help how to get suboxone legally without insurance. how much would it probably be, how to find a doctor liscenced to prescribe it, ect. My problem last time in recovery was lack of sleep. I went 20 days with little to no sleep and coulnt take it anymore. i NEED help cold turkey was too intense to even describe. my tolerance is so high and i definatly need some sort or medical assistance but i dont want to go to methadone for im sure obvious reasons to those who know what im talking about. i would love to hear some advice or even just a little support.thanks.

[dgillz]

What do you mean "buy it legally without insurance"? Sorry maybe I don't understand how this works but is it not like buying anything else? They don't take cash? It is illegal to sell to an individual? It has to be cheaper than the heroin right?

As to find someone who can prescribe it, SoCal is heroin alley. Look in the newspaper or google it.

[Ago]

Relapse isn't part of "my recovery" but it's part of "my story" and "my experience", someday, this will be part of 'your story" and "your experience" and will be part of your arsenal to help others. Thinking of it that way helped get me through the darkest times, I knew this too would pass, and that one day I'd be able to use it to help others.

I had one sponsee that went 32 days without sleep I think it was (I'd have to ask him) coming off Oxy's, I'd see him looking more and more mangled every day, he eventually got through it and has nine? ten? years now. My other opiate/Oxy sponsee has eight years and just had a beautiful baby.

My personal experience with heroin withdrawals is watching my sister kick for a few months at my house, on my couch, took her awhile but she eventually also got through it.

You can do this, keep reaching out for help.

[URMYEVERYTHING]

Relapse is a part of your addiction not a part of your recovery.

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by heatherette

i was just looking for some help how to get suboxone legally without insurance. how much would it probably be, how to find a doctor liscenced to prescribe it, ect.

The Suboxone website has a "find a doctor" function. You plug in your zip code and the distance that you are able to travel. A list of docs, addresses, and phone numbers will be displayed. Some Sub doctors are cash only. They require money upfront. However, I have heard about programs for those who are income eligible. Tony (Mr Phreez) had a thread awhile back that listed the website. You can check Tony's old threads.

I know the frustration of getting in some days only to relapse. It wasn't so very long ago that I got 10 and then 12. I just couldn't put them together. It was horrible. Keep trying heatherette. I hope that the above information is helpful.

[Timebuster]

Originally Posted by heatherette

this time is i started using my arms instead of my lungs to get loaded.

You shot dope in your lungs?…that’s a new one me.

Keep coming back…it works, if you work it.

Ivan

[christin1225]

I know the frustration of getting in some days only to relapse... I just couldn't put them together. It was horrible.

You shot dope in your lungs?…that’s a new one me.

Keep coming back…it works, if you work it.

Sometimes it seems to me that the pain, frustration, and hopelessness of relapse can be forgotten, or maybe I take myself a bit too seriously because it's so recent. Anyway... having set my life on the hope that "it works, if you work it", I hope that nothing ever discourages you from coming back, heatherette.

(And I agree... relapse is not a part of recovery, it's a part of the disease. However, if we are fortunate enough to learn something about our disease from a relapse, it can set us on the road to recovery. If we learn nothing, we simply return to active addiction).

I hope that you have learned something about your disease.

[JRNeuber]

Heather,
Suboxine will give you a chance to recover control over your life. Just google "suboxone" and you will find a provider locator for access to the doctors in your community that are permitted to prescribe it. I'm on the east coast, so don't know the pricing structure in your region. But here you'll spend about $250/month for the prescription on top of whatever the doctor will charge for his office visits. Expensive, yes, but a generic is supposed to become available in the next few months that should relieve some of that cost. But it's still cheaper than an untreated addiction when all of the costs are tallied up, including risks to freedom and health.

I wish you luck. Try this--you are worth whatever the cost-- and many are finding salvation in this medicine.
J.R. Neuberger
National Alliance for Medication Assisted Recovery

[kj3880]

I didn't use insurance, and it was $100 a visit for me. Once a month. A lot cheaper then the drugs I was on. There are many sub docs who don't work with insurance clients, like mine. From what you have said, sub might be a good thing for you to try. It was a miracle pill for me. Try to find a doctor with a lot of experience, who is somewhat easy to talk to.
Let me know if you decide to go with sub, and I'll share some of what worked for me with it.

Love,
KJ

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by JRNeuber

you are worth whatever the cost

Hmmm.... I'm becoming a regular on this thread.
I absolutely agree that you are worth whatever it costs. Though, some of us don't have what it costs. My original doctor required $150 cash, credit, or money order per visit. The first month was $400 due to the $250.00 induction that had to be paid before the regular $150 visit. I hope that if you need, you can find assistance.

and many are finding salvation in this medicine.

The praises of Suboxone may be many, but please understand that they are not the end all of recovery, at least not for many addicts. I highly recommend that you read the article that I have posted to my blog about why 12-Step Programs are still necessary, even with DRT (otherwise known as medical assisted recovery).

[dgillz]

Originally Posted by Timebuster

You shot dope in your lungs?…that’s a new one me.

She smoked it? Just a guess.

[jimhere]

the idea that relapse is a part of recovery is something that has been sold to alcoholics and addicts by people who claim to be our friends. To sum up my views on the subject, it is bullshit.

[Sugah]

Relapse is my ego convincing me I can control it, or that I'm the only one harmed by my actions. Have I relapsed? In the technical sense, yes. I was 19 my first attempt at sobriety. It took me another fifteen years of beat-downs to finally get humble enough to go to any length.

Suboxone or no suboxone -- I have no opinion, except this one: I have yet to meet anyone who used chemical means alone to get clean, no program of any sort, and got free of them (methadone/suboxone) without relapsing. I do know a number of folks who have come into AA after having kicked a habit, only to replace it with booze and find it to be just as much of a problem.

Gotta learn to live clean.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[barrylane]

Originally Posted by Timebuster

You shot dope in your lungs?…that’s a new one me.

Keep coming back…it works, if you work it.

Ivan

i'm pretty sure she meant she started shooting, other than smoking it... have you ever tried any NA meetings? i didn't hear whether you said or not... you need support of other addicts that know how you are feeling, and can see how you're feeling... that will never happen online... heroin addicts are liars... we can't help it... i know, i was one of the worst... you name it, i did it... you can't beat it alone... and the sub and the methadone are only band-aids... i'm not saying it won't work for you... i'm just saying if you want to get off the dope, you'll do anything to get off... you do anything to stay loaded don't ya? i know a lady that just celebrated 2 years clean, and did it with the help of suboxone... maybe i could hook you up with her... personally i never had that option... the prison docs wouldn't give me any! they literally told me if i died, the world would be better off... that was 4 years ago.

[christin1225]

Originally Posted by barrylane

i'm pretty sure she meant she started shooting, other than smoking it...

That Heather went from smoking to shooting was obvious. After all, it's a normal progression. I believe that any question about what the post implied was an attempt at humor. It's just that the timing (when someone is struggling with relapse) was poor, making it not particularly funny, in my opinion anyway. But, hey, we all get it wrong sometime. So, we keep coming back.

Originally Posted by barrylane

you can't beat it alone...

Originally Posted by barrylane

the sub and the methadone are only band-aids...

Double

i know a lady that just celebrated 2 years clean, and did it with the help of suboxone...

This is wonderful to hear, Barry. Thank you! If there's any chance that you can get your friend to post her story on SR, I'd love to read it.

the prison docs wouldn't give me any! they literally told me if i died, the world would be better off... that was 4 years ago.

This goes to prove that even doctors can get it wrong. From what I'm reading, Barry, I think that it's safe to say that the world is a better place with you in it.

Heather... your turn, kiddo. How are you doing today?

[heatherette]

im doing much better but am still not sleeping or eating anything. but my withdraw the first time was far worse due to a way higher tolerance. so im just trying to keep focusing on how much easier it is this time around. im just glad im back in recovery and thanks for all of your support and advice. I think I can make it through without the subs now that im supposedly in the worst of the withdraw days. I think I can make it. I've been spending most of my time in the bath tub just reading and thinking. I've forced myself out of bed and to a meeting. Which really really helped. I want to get the big book I just need to ask next time how and where and how much it is to get it. and to answer the big debated question yes I did mean i went from smoking it to injection. but only in very small quantity thank god. I pray a lot and ask god to help me through withdraw with is mentally very helpful. I also noticed this time around I have a much better attitude and am using the tools around me (meetings/this site/ect.) and instead of laying around scaling my bedroom floors for another hit, I just look at myself like a sik person that needs time to get better and am much more spiritual this time. Again thank U ALL for everything, its nice to know somone understands my disease first hand.
OH AND I HAVE A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE 12 STEPS. can i work the steps out of order? i have already admitted to myself a lonnnnng time ago that my life has become unmanagable. and i think it would be really helpful for me to write down alll the things ive done wrong and am sorry for to my family and give and talk to them about it. and come clean to them about my relapse. also I would love to write down my defects of character and give and admitt them to god and pray that he removes them or whatever. How do u know when to move to the next step? or which one im ready to start on? how should I go about finding a sponsor. Ive been talking to a 42 year old man who is 11 years clean from heroin and insists that he be my sponsor. I heard male/female sponsorship isnt the right way to go about it. how should i tell him no? should i tell him no? im very confused where to even start in working the steps and going about beginning in the tools to my recovery. please, any advice or simple answers to my questions would be great.
thanks again everyone, u done even know how much this is helping me along the way.

[dgillz]

Stay way the hell away from that man! Especially since he is insisting.

One of the main reason we promote same sex sponsors is this: When you work the steps, you are going to tell your sponsor very intimate details about your life. Such intimacy invokes strong emotions and can lead to emotional bonding, especially with women.

Men (I am male BTW) are less likely to emotionally bond than women because by and large we are less emotional creatures. However lots of men realize this and seek out female newcomers to "bond" with (no one is a better actor than an alcoholic/addict). These men know that the emotions that will naturally come out working the program (especially the 4th and 5th steps) might lead to physical intimacy as well. This is doubly true because the average newcomer is vulnerable on multiple levels.

The process described above is called "13th stepping". The men that do this, while they may be sober, generally are not practicing a good program and are not there to help you, IMHO. Google "13th stepping" and you'll find some other people's ESH (experience, strength and hope) on this issue.

[dgillz]

In terms of working the steps, IMHO they are meant to be worked in order. Having said that, a sponsor is the person that will help you work the steps. There is a great book on sponsorship that helped me when I was trying to find a sponsor,"12 Step Sponsorship - How it Works". Hazelden - www.hazelden.org - is the publisher. Hazelden publishes many books about recovery.

In terms of finding a sponsor, go to several NA meetings and find a woman who you admire, and ask her to sponsor you. If she can't, she will likely know someone who can.

[mumbai78]

No relapse is not a part of recovery. It is an excuse people make up to keep relapsing.

[kj3880]

When we are new in any group, we seek to find a way to belong. Many of us latched onto an established member of the opposite sex and used that relationship as a way to immediately feel we fit in. But this is a path to disaster. The man (or woman) is using his/her status as a member with clean-time to attract and bind a newcomer to him/her. Once the member gets what he/she wants, and starts to realize how sick and toxic the newcomer still is, they generally dump them, which often leads the newcomer into a shame spiral, and far too often, a relapse. Or they trap them in like a hostage, just as sick and toxic as a relapse.

Something similar happened to me at about 5 months clean. A man started hanging about, acting as if he were interested in my recovery. He asked me for coffee "just as friends." He wouldn't tell me how long he'd been clean. He would say, when I asked "We all only have one day!" Yeah, whatever. I mean that's true in one sense, but I certainly don't want to be riding around town with someone who's still trying to fix. I found out eventually that he was in recurring relapse mode, even though he'd been in the fellowship for years. That was what was attractive to me, that he knew all the literature, the information, the people in our fellowship. He was more outgoing than I am, and he could (I thought) introduce me to some good women. But he was insecure, and he tried to isolate me.

I found out the hard way that it is better to make my own flawed, uncomfortable, newcomer way then to hook up with a sick man and use his way in to recovery.

And only the sick ones want to hook up with newcomers. I mean, what is that about? If they've done all this work on themselves, why would they want a partner who hadn't? The answer is that many of them are frauds. They've been around, sure. Some of them have even managed to stay clean. But they aren't honestly sharing what's going on. They haven't gotten to the bottom of it all yet. They haven't done the work. Or maybe they did some of it, didn't like what they saw of themselves when they opened that dark box of diseased mind, and closed it right back up.

Eventually, I broke it off, and started hanging with the women. It was easier to work on myself with people who weren't secretly trying to use me.

Love,
KJ

[christin1225]

heather,

I'm so glad to hear that you are doing better! You sound very committed to your recovery and that is awesome. The advice that has already been given is excellent (re female/female sponsor/sponsee relationship). Please follow it.

I would not suggest working the steps out of order. Of course, life will bring opportunities for you to do the steps out of order. For example, your mother knows that you've stolen from her in order to get drugs and you want to pay her back. You're clean and have gotten your job back. So, you want to start making weekly payments to her. Although making direct amends is the ninth step, there's no reason to postpone the opportunity just because you haven't worked steps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8.

It's the same as if I had a conviction that God wants me to join a particular place of worship. I wouldn't delay joining just because I hadn't "formally" given my will to Him in the third step. However, when it comes to "working" the steps: sitting down with your sponsor, the Big Book (or NA text), and whatever other AA/NA literature that your sponsor might suggest, I believe, they should be done in order.

Personally, I think it is ill-advised to do a fourth step without having done the best third step that you possibly can make. Thinking that I was ready, I tried it. My reaction was one of: "How can I face everything that I'm listing without being able to numb?" The answer for me is to have made an excellent third step. That's my hope for this next time. I'm a particularly difficult case for the third step, I think. My sponsor is very patient with me and has taken me back to step one, giving me things to do to help me work my way back to the third and the fourth steps.

I hope that this makes sense. I'm so proud of you, heatherette! You are simply doing awesome!

[mumbai78]

Originally Posted by kj3880

And only the sick ones want to hook up with newcomers. I mean, what is that about? If they've done all this work on themselves, why would they want a partner who hadn't? The answer is that many of them are frauds. They've been around, sure. Some of them have even managed to stay clean. But they aren't honestly sharing what's going on. They haven't gotten to the bottom of it all yet. They haven't done the work. Or maybe they did some of it, didn't like what they saw of themselves when they opened that dark box of diseased mind, and closed it right back up.

Serves as good reminder that not taking a drink or not doing drugs is not the equivalent of sobriety

[barrylane]

Originally Posted by heatherette

how should I go about finding a sponsor. Ive been talking to a 42 year old man who is 11 years clean from heroin and insists that he be my sponsor. I heard male/female sponsorship isnt the right way to go about it. how should i tell him no? should i tell him no? im very confused where to even start in working the steps and going about beginning in the tools to my recovery. please, any advice or simple answers to my questions would be great.

A 42 year old man with 11 years clean time should know better than to insist on being your sponsor... that sounds more like something someone with 11 days in the rooms would say... trust me, i see your picture... he's not thinking of your welfare, he's thinking of his rewards... get a female sponsor, and concentrate on the steps... please don't take offense... i only meant that in the best way.