Suboxone -a Must Read

[gtinney1]

I'm so glad I found this site. There is a lot of bad info to be found on the net concerning discontinuance of this drug. I will not start by bragging about what drugs and quantities of them I have taken, but in order to gain your confidence in this matter I will say that I spent thirty years of my life in pharmaceuticals (breaking into pharmacies and medical facilities). I know drugs, and I've experienced more withdrawals then I could count or care to remember.
I found sobriety in 1997 in A.A. and related 12-step groups. I have about six one-year (of sobriety) medalions in my desk drawer, each of those representing a relapse sometime between one and two years sober. Even working the steps, having a sponsor, and going to meetings, I am a chronic relapser. So after my last episode, over three years ago, I went to an "addiction recovery" doctor, who, I found out later, also provides pain management. Seems like an oxymoron doesn't it? He put me on Suboxone, and I have been taking 24mg. a day for over three years. My insurance covered the visits and prescriptions so it seemed like a very good thing. Especially since this drug seemed to work wonders. I felt "normal". It didn't make me dopey but I felt good, and it did give me a little lift. Great!
The dosage was way too high and I was forgetting to breathe at night, so I saw a sleep speciallist to see if I had sleep apnea, and got some Xanax while I was there - a leathal combination with Suboxone. Well one thing leads to another, as you know. I started drinking too. The wonder drug wasn't working wonders. Even before all this extracurricular began I was beginning to notice a change in my personality. I didn't know who I was anymore. The core of my being was saturated with this powerful drug. It was the rock on which I stood - which was really more like sandstone, flecked with fools-gold.
I told my doctor I wanted to start getting off of it. He recommended reducing the dose by 2mg per month. That means it would take a whole year to get off this stuff. I couldn't do that. I was already messing up. Drove my truck into a ditch and got a DUI from the Xanax incident. I was breaking my wife's heart, and I could have killed somebody, including myself.
I had tried in the past to reduce my dosage on my own, but I was unable to function. I was confused, sick, irate, and irrational, and I have a business and a wife I would like to keep, thanks to God and A.A., so before long I was right back to the dosage that worked (or didn't). I was in deep trouble. I was trapped.
I made a decision to get off this crap, a commitment to myself and no one else. I had once gone cold turkey from methadone while lying on the concrete floor of a county lock-up. If you can survive that you can survive anything. We're resilliant people. I have also been to expensive rehabs. Here's the deal, I got on-line to see what people do to get off Suboxone, since it's one drug I never had experience with before and wanted to know what to expect. There was a lot of drug talk, and in my opinion little helpful advice. People were giving these outrageous schedules like take 8mg. for three days then six mg. for one day, then eight for two days, and six for three days, etc. I gleened what helpful information I could, trying to dispell the fear as I read stories of lingering hell. I got on my knees and prayed to God to give me wisdom to do the right thing and to see me through this and lift me out of it. And I clung to that hope throughout, and still am. I decided to keep a journal to give an honest depiction for anyone seriously considering either taking or getting off of Suboxone. It was originally intended to be a "how to" for people seeking advice. But I made a drastic decision and took a drastic course that I do not recommend. I went from three 8mg tabs a day to two tabs for two days, to one tab, divided into two seperate doses for two days, to a half a tab for one day, and finally a quarter of a tab. Since it takes about two or three days for the bad stuff to start happening I was able to work up until the one tab day. Then the bedlam.
If you go to a detox ward they will give you a sedative, they will make you get out of bed and participate in activities. They may take you out to play volleyball, where you will witness how retarded drugs make people, which will help convince you that you don't want to be one of these shuffling, whining, crumbled pieces of humanity who can't even slap a ball over a net (of which I was one). They will try to make you eat and drink fluids. They will make you sit and listen to psycho-babble most of which you will not comprehend as you just want to go to bed and lie in your own little hell. You will be released before the sedatives are even out of your system, leaving you lost in a hopeless state disarray.
So here's what I do recommend : work with your doctor.
But if you are an addict like me, who never could take drugs as prescribed, I don't see how all of a sudden we will be able to stick to his prescribed reduced dosages. When I read "take one tablet every four hours" my brain thinks that means take four tablets every hour for optimum effect.
My main concern here is to help and not harm, so I'm stressing once again that I am not writing a prescription here. I'm trying hard to keep it in the context of what I did and what it was like for me, not necessarily what you should do, but hopefully you will find this information advantageous.
The following was written as a method to myself, and which I applied:
Get some A.A. literature, it's easy to locate. The Big Book and Daily Reflections specifically. Go to meetings and ask for help, but not during the actual meeting as there are some with prejudice toward addicts. There are many addicts there though so ask around. At least get some phone numbers so you will have someone to call when you need someone. When they tell you to call even if it's four in the morning they mean it.
N.A. may be great in some places, but down here there doesn't seem to be much recovery going on there. I felt like I was hanging out with a bunch of junkies who didn't have any dope. A.A. is the way. You may even find out that you might be an alcoholic. I am.
Make a commitment. You will need to take a minimum of a week off from work. It's been two weeks now that I've been unable to work. Thankfully I own my own business.
Get on your knees and pray, even if you don't believe in God (you will after you see His power work in your life). Ask Him to bring you through this ordeal safely, to give you strength and to restore your life to what He would want it to be. Begin your reduction and cling to this hope. Read your Spiritual and recovery materials. Probably should do this prior to the detox as well. If you are an addict but don't consider yourself an alcoholic, wherever you see the word "alcohol" exchange it with the drug you are currently struggling with. Alcohol is, after all, a drug. A sedative hypnotic. You will be amazed how much of yourself you will see in those books, and you will find the true nature of your dilemma and how to overcome it.
Do all the things they would have you do in rehab, i.e. Get out of bed, take showers, brush your teeth, eat if you can. Fresh fruit is best tolerated and is good for you, especially bananas -they provide potasium which will keep you from cramping. Drink LOTS of water. Do not take vitamin B or anything that will stimulate you such as coffee, cola, or power drinks. You will be wired to the walls already. DO NOT drink alcohol, or you may find yourself on the next episode of COPS, or worse. As soon as you are able, put on your tennis shoes and go for a run, but not on a busy street. Run, don't walk. This will help kick in your endorphins, the body's natural opiate. Try to do this every day. It will help. Make those phone calls and go to meetings as soon as you can. Ask someone to take you there. Don't drive, for now.
This is good advice for any detox.
Now, specifically relating to Suboxone. Hopefully there aren't many people out there who were on as high a dosage as I, or for as long a period as I was on it. I don't want to instill fear. Fear is the enemy! But I will now relate my experience with detoxing off Suboxone for information sake. There are still doctors out there claiming this to to be non-addictive or less-addictive than most narcotics. B!!! S!!!
Remember, I was on a high dosage and did a fast detox that no one in their right mind would endorse, but I was going to die from relapsing so I saw no other choice. As they say, individual results may vary.

I found detoxing from Suboxone far more mentally challenging than physically.
I experienced hot and cold flashes, chills and relatively minor aches. I was surprised that I had only a little diarrhea. In fact I was constipated up until about two weeks after my last dose. Then the diarrhea started. This stuff clings to your opiate receptors and doesn't want to go away. The detox is a test of endurance. In other words, it's going to be a long road.
The first night I was really going into withdrawals I went to bed with my wife and when she turned out the lights I felt like I was buried alive in the darkness, suffocating in it. I couldn't see anything besides the hallucinations flashing in my head. I had to get up. I have been staying in a separate room ever since. I found it beneficial to keep the t.v. on at low volume to help me sleep. Well, not really sleep. To keep the hallucinations somewhat in some sort of framework. I would find myself working diligently cutting straight the uneven edges of pieces of paper with a pair of scissors and think to myself, Why the hell am I bothering with this? Then open my eyes and find I am just laying in bed, still. One time my wife came in to check on me (God bless my wife) and while she was talking I thought I was brushing my teeth, but my arms were laying at my side. I could actually feel the toothbrush between my lips and my arm moving it up and down. These are just a couple of examples. Most of it is too crazy to even try to explain. This went on for three days and nights, to the best of my recollection. That's why the tv was beneficial, what I was hearing would at least keep my brain from going places I did not want to be, left on its own volition. When I shut my eyes it was like they were still open, only a few shades darker. I went six nights and seven days with no sleep at all. Roid Rage x 10 = I went for a run and it was very surreal. I feel like I'm on PCP mixed with steroids. I start to feel a little better sometimes then it comes in another wave and I'm jumping up and pacing and sitting back down, practically running in place while sitting on the couch, pounding the table and screaming in frustration. The blankets on my bed are tied in a knot from my spin cycle. My poor wife, God bless her soul. She's been very supportive and basically leaving me be, cooking for me; yes, I can finally eat after two weeks. She's a retired nurse, so she took my blood pressure and pulse when I thought I was going to pass out a couple times. I read a story of a lady who when detoxing from this stuff was concerned about her racing heart and was very offended when her doctor told her it was all in her head. He was right. She just took that the wrong way. My blood pressure and pulse were perfect. It was in my head. But not imaginary.
My wife (who has a painful medical condition) keeps her meds in a safe I'm unable to crack, short of blowing it up. My goal was to go completely clean, but it has become necessary to take an occasional sedative. As far as non-abuse potential sedatives go phenergan works pretty well, so she has dispenced one to me on occasion. It might help you get two or three hours of sleep. Benedryl might be good for one or two times, it helps with the watery eyes and sneezing and may help you sleep a little. But sometimes it can turn on you and make you figgity instead of drowsy. So use it sparingly. Unfortunately I have had to take a Valium a couple of times to keep from, or to stop me from being, totaly berzerk.
This is one of the most difficult things I have ever done. But I'm keeping my eye on the prize. I want my wife to have the man she married back. I owe that to her. Wonderful woman. And I want to be the man that I was when I was sober. Suboxone is not sobriety. It's a cheap (expensive) imitation. It's the worst drug I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. I'll take methadone withdrawals on a concrete floor any day of the week over this.
I'm keeping in touch with an old A.A. friend. I made it to a meeting. Reading my Bible and Big Book. I'm clinging to God, whom I trust with my life. He's the reason I have a home, a business, a wife, and even my life, and that I'm sitting in my office typing on my computer and not out working in a field at Angola State Penitentiary.
I know this has been long, but I wanted to be as informative as possible. I hope this post will offer insight, hope, and courage to someone who is as desperate as I, and knowledge to those curious if this drug would be a good option for them. I know it sounds scary. It is. But be brave. The benefits of freedom from this horrible addiction far outweigh the hardship. He who makes the sun to shine and breathes the breath of life into the world has the power to deliver us onto the path of life and to keep us from harm. Be brave.
The trick is to keep trusting Him even after the crisis is over. That's where I fall short. I get busy and become "self sufficient". This time I'm hanging with the old timers (A.A.s with long sobriety). I want to be that guy.

P.S. My wife just informed me that it was fourteen days ago that I flushed the remainder of my Suboxone down the toilet (she wrote it down), which was two days after I took my last quarter of a tablet. So I must be doing pretty well if I can add that up to sixteen days off of it. Still pinging off the walls though. THIS TOO SHALL PASS!
One other thing, if you are thin you may want to bulk up before detoxing. I lost eight pounds in two weeks. For me that's a benefit.

I will amend this when when I am fully back to normal. In the mean-time if I can offer any moral support to anyone please let me know. I don't usually spend a lot of time on the computer so if I don't respond promptly hang in there. Look forward to seeing you all on the sunny side! Gerry (gtinney1)

[cjsg]

This deep strange mental stuff you mention really jumped out at me because I have been on this stuff for a 5 days and have had nothing but a rough time. Starting late on day two I felt like instant psychiatric ward patient. I have a few episodes daily during which I completely stress and or freak out and havea little psycho anxiety attack or something. One day I was hell bent that I was going to die. The next day I was driving and suddenly thought that i was going to wreck because I felt really floaty and disconnected and felt that I was floating someone above by body....I even have a mental snapshot of how I looked in the jeep from my supposed position above the drivers seat looking down on myself. Even as I write this i feel mentally challenged and very frustrated because my mental deftness has been screwed up so much that I can hardly process or vocalise a single thought. It´s unnerving, all of these psychological or mental symptoms I have noticed. But then I tell myself.. oh your just an addict and not very objective... how can you truly know what is happening for sure. I am not sure what to think about this drug as yet. I have experienced almost constant nausea and headaches. My hands and feet feel somewhat swollen, and I have broken out in little bumps along my hairline on the forehead, and all over my face and neck as well. To add to the craziness My heart has skipped a beat on on 4 different occasions. Of course I could be imagining all this and I am trying a great deal not to put to much drama in this thing, as I am prone to do sometimes. Even so, my experience these last days has thrown up some red flags for me....... OR maybe I should shut my mouth, but I really do hate the slightly szchizophrenic , floating, disconnected sensation I have felt throughout this first week.
Maybe I´m overreacting... and imagining things, perhaps not......do you see the dilemma?
I´m glad your doing well. I know it has had to be hellish beyond belief.
Good Luck and Good Job
Chris

[gtinney1]

I noticed that your on your computer at 1:am. Not sleeping.
You may be on too high of a dosage. Tell your doctor immediately. You're endangering yourself and others, especially while driving. This is a powerful drug. Don't keep your mouth shut either. People need to know what this drug does, especially the drug companys, doctors and pharmacies who supply it.
I had to get a partial refill and my wife cut the pills into 1mg. pieces. which I have taken one or two of over the last couple of days. I'm going to lose my clients and I have a stack of unpaid bills rising on my desk. I was amazed at how much better I felt after taking only a 1 mg. chip of a pill. I don't regret my rapid detox. I do regret that I've had to take minescule doses so far along down the road in order to function at all.
They say if you walk twenty miles into the woods, you have to walk twenty miles to get back out, so keep that in mind.
Keep posted
Gerry

[cjsg]

Hello
Yes, last night i had serious sleep issues. I seem to fall asleep on this Sub and wake up with the perception that I have slept for 3 or 4 hours, only to find out its only been an hour and a half.
I thought the same thing about not driving. I have only driven a few times around town since that day but, I think I won´t even risk that until I stabilize or stop taking this.
I have only taken this for a week and last night I was thinking that I might look for a state run detox, or a cheap medical detox. I, just like you with your clients etc, have serious financial hardships at the moment. I ahven´t had to go thru these hardtimes in a long time. I´m not going to go under but at this point, a 700 dollar detox would be break me. I just feel confused... should I hold out and do the 2 month suboxone program my doctor planned or hit the 7 day detox so I can start IOP. Those are my choices. I really really feel the need to be in meetings and an IOP, but when i go to the meetings I feel so strange being on this. I have been going to meetings, reading and praying and it seems I can´t get past a certain point because I feel as if working on sobriety while I am taking this is somewhat of a lie..... in my case anyway. I would not judge anyone who decided to take this or anything. My comments regard my opinion in my case. I´m sure there are´people who have been helped by this. I am convinced this medication has helped many many people and would never judge anyone who is taking it, we are all different. I just feel weird taking this. It is surprising how well it deals with with my withdrawal symptoms and cravings even when I was taking 16 mg a day instead of the 16mg the doctor prescribed daily.
Tomorrow I see the doctor at 1pm. I definately made a list of everything that I have been thinking.
I would love to be able to put some serious effort into the recovery program.. I just feel a bit like a hypocrite being on this medication, which has helped me but at the same time the psychological and physical ailments I have suffered since last wednesday seem to be on their way to outweighing the benefits..
WHo knows, I am still determined to get well, and tomorrow will have a talk with the doctor and get his opinion. He is a long time family friend so I´m sure he´ll take care of me... Take care all
Chris

[gtinney1]

Hey Cris,
I can't give you medical advise, or even tell you what to do. You are correct about it not being a true recovery while under the influence of suboxone, unless it's part of a plan to achieve complete freedom from mind altering substances, which seems to be the case for you at this time. I found that while on it I cannot experience the cleanness of spirit that one finds in recovery. It puts a wall between you and the Spirit of the Higher Power we must depend on in order to survive and live a happy sober life. But be patient my friend. Keep working with your doctor, being as honest as you can with him, yourself, and others. Sometimes if feels hopeless, but there IS hope. Keep up the good fight my brother in arms. I need you as much as you need us, so keep us posted. Together we lift each other up.
Gerry

[kj3880]

I just want to say that subs were a miracle for me. I'm not at all saying that they are for everyone. Certainly, if you are on Xanax, it could mess you up badly. But I just wanted to say that when I followed my doc's instructions, I had an almost painless experience. Of course, I went to NA almost daily and worked a vigorous program of inside recovery, too.

Love,
KJ

[cjsg]

HELLO

I´m just kind of poking back in re reading etc...

I continue to be a mental wreck to some extent but I´m almost convinced that its mostly due to the xanax withdrawal made worse by the sub. In addition.. although I had detoxxed off ultram and xanax before I had not experience withdrawal at the astronomical doses I had become accustomed to taking...so It is only logical to assume that they might be more fastidious and more severe this time around .

I, strangely enough DO feel better in a million other respects. I got bumped down 2 mgs in this suboxone and I think the fact I am tapering off has made me ecstatic. Even sitting in a meeting on the sub doesnt bother me quite as much because I AM literally on my way to get off it. I have to be honest...maybe its just a moral issue for us gt but I still agree with you on that spiritual purity, I do feel something in the way still. Others might not feel this so acutely. I can´t help it I still dsense this in my case.. however it is made better by the fact I sliced 2 mgs off the sub dose and that the other things I am doing are starting to bear fruits. you know.. the meetings, the online recovery reading, the forums etc.

I still feel the annoying junk.. the mental wierdness, the inability to sleep more than an hour or so at a time....only god knows which drug is to blame, but I have the sneaking suspiscion the Sub has helped a lot but has been responsable for a lot of the wirdness as well. Whatever the case I am manageing to glean the good from the bad and have felt advances in the last few days..

I hope all is well and everyone is able to muster thier resolve and strength to stay the course
Chris

[kj3880]

I recommend that if you are having trouble sleeping while on subs, to not take any after lunch time. Because they can make you have trouble getting into REM, deep sleep. You can get that floaty, dreamy, one-hour nap sleep, but not eight good hours, if you are taking them in the evening. I could never take any in the evening due to this.
I used to take one dose in the morning, one at lunch.
KJ

[gtinney1]

Glad you are doing well (relatively speaking).
A while back, prior to my detox, my doctor had given me a prescription for Seroquel to take at night to help me sleep, and I think he was trying to treat my other symptoms with it as well, i.e. depression, confusion, anxiety, etc. I pretty much forgot that I had this medicine in my drawer. Actually I think I was afraid to try it, since I had bad experiences with so many other psychotropic drugs he had prescribed. I read up on this drug on the net. It's used for treating disorders from bi-polar to schizophrenia. Out of desperation I took a half of a 100 mg tablet a couple of nights ago and slept like a baby for nine hours straight. My wife said I didn't even snore. I used it again last night with just as good results. The hard part is waking up. My body and mind desperately need this rest so I'm very glad I tried this. Wish I had done it sooner. It doesn't seem to help with any of the other stuff, but it sure puts me to sleep. Thought I would share this with you. You might want to ask your doc if he or she thinks this might be good for you.
Just wanted to add, Xanax is a tough thing to kick too, even on its own. It throws you in a dark, mental play-pen and leaves you there in your pissy diaper for a long time. An abusive parent\ guardian indeed. (hyperbole, of course).
Have a great day, and a bright hope for tomorrow.
Gerry

[jimb]

I started suboxone 10 days ago 24 mill a day day 8 and 9 i droped it down to 16 mill so my detox wont be so painfull ill stay on that for a week then drop to 8 and see how i do im so glad i made it from the methadone line they brang me up to 130 milll and i knew i did not want to be there for life,with that place almost killed me i cant stand it 4 months of hell everyday in line to get off oxy now im going to meeting reading the big book meeting people and it makes me want to really be clean of everything im going for it all ,and just wanted to share with other people i like the help i get here by reading other stories and sub is suposed to have milder withdrawl i sure hope so peace be with all jim

[gtinney1]

Good luck to ya'.
Keep in touch.
Gerry

[baggervance]

I hope its going well and continues too. My worst started for me on my 16th day and I had to endure that for 19 more days. My withdrawl from subs was hell hope yours is better.

[gtinney1]

Thanks,
I was hoping to get some input from someone else who had been through this. It's been about four weeks now since I started my detox. I found it necessary to take small slivers of tablets 1 - 2 mg. pieces to keep from totally losing it. This stuff must have permiated every molecule of my body. Never in my life have I seen something take so long to get out of my system. I know every time I take another piece it's prolonging the process, but I'm starting to panic about losing my business, wife, and even my life. I feel like I have brain damage, like I'm on some crappy kind of speed mixed with PCP.
Will take the final plunge this weekend. This is some BAD MEDICINE! -at least for long-term usage. I will post again when my brain is working properly (by faith) for the knowledge of those who need to know what they can expect.
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)~: