LiveInPeace

After I completed Step 6 and 7, my sponsor said to make a list of people I had harmed. I found that vague and confusing. I'm confused about who should go on my list, because I really don't understand what is meant by the word "harm". I had a long step 4 column 1 list, but I don't think I harmed a lot of the people. Resented, yes. Harmed? I'm not sure.

Some harms are obvious, like to those close to me, but with other people, I think I resented them, but didn't necessary harm them. Or, I harmed myself by letting stuff get to me, wallowing in angry self-pity, etc. Or, I vented about stuff to others, and they are the ones I think I owe amends to because the person I vented about didn't know I was venting about them. Is this right?

I'm also confused as to what should be a direct amends and what should be a living amends. Let's say I realize now I was probably not easy to work with. Do I go back and make amends to every single person I ever worked with (I have worked with a lot of people and at a lot of jobs since I was a teenager), or do I make living amends, by changing my behavior and not acting like that ever again? Or do I just make amends to the really big ones that stand out?

Any advice so I can understand "harm", and who needs to be on my Step 8 list, would be appreciated. Thanks!

Tommyh

direct amends is where I approach someone f2f and make the amends,living amends,while not specially mentioned as such in the Big Book,is where I change my behavior,especially towards them.I can make no amends unless I change my behaviors anyway.That must come first.

a harm is where I interfered,damaged,or hurt someone in different ways resulting in some sort of damage to them,deliberately,or not

such as emotional,financial,physical ,etc and it could be relationship wise

we are like a tornado roaring our way thru others lives........hard not to hurt someone else

harm- to injure, hurt, wound, maltreat, mistreat, misuse, ill-treat, ill-use, abuse, molest


we hamed ourselves quite a bit,didn`t we?

LiveInPeace

Thanks, Tommyh. :-)

I think I'm in a lot of fear or something about not getting Step 8 right and screwing it up. I need to say some God Affirmations. I find my fear still takes over so quickly sometimes and overwhelms my faith. I've got to work on that more.

Thanks for explaining the difference between direct/F2F and living amends. I'm so glad I get the concept finally that this isn't about "apologizing" but about "changing"...as in "changing behavior". That had to be drummed into my head over the last couple of years listening to some great guides/sponsors share at the meeting! :-) I thank God He is helping me see my behavior in writing my turnarounds and then in reading them during my 5th step. But I still fear I'm missing something.

Ok yes I forgot....my sponsor did mention the emotional, financial, physical harm. That helped and I added that to my list.

What do you mean by "relationship wise"? Like if we stop being friends with someone over something stupid? Or do you mean a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship or spouse relationship kind of thing?

Yeah the harms to myself were painfully obvious in my "dishonesty" and "self-seeking" turnarounds. I was embarrassed reading all that nonsense repeatedly! lol

Thanks, Tommyh!

Tommyh

I hurt others relationships
I kept a drinking buddy,Jimmy out a lot,mooching off him for drugs and booze....I had no concern for his wife and 2 kids.....they was kind of like collateral damage that took me some years to see how I hurt them too,of course he was mainly to fault but I had a wrong there also

and of course I made some people jealous with my behavior and hurt their relationship


you could just list the suspicious stuff after praying and they will eventually sort themselves out if they don`t belong there

only wrong way is to not do it

I am sure you will do a fine job

LiveInPeace

Thanks, Tommyh, this was helpful. :-)

Post Step 5, 6, 7 I do now see that I was always very selfish with my friends. I wanted things the way I wanted them, and I didn't always have regard for their wants or their time. It helped to read your example to process it . I think I need to sit with God on that for some time. Thank you for getting the wheels cranking. I was too much in fear to even pray about it. I've got to catch myself before the fear hits...

Interestingly enough, one coworker's memory popped into my head a couple of times today. I couldn't remember her name, until suddenly I saw her first name in print and it hit me. I've added her name to my amends list. God works in mysterious ways...

tomsteve

"I think I'm in a lot of fear or something about not getting Step 8 right and screwing it up."
36 years of living with the last 23 in a bottle, there was absolutely no way I was going to get every instance of harm I did. I received great news on not getting all of them out:
The steps aren't one and done. They MUST continue for my lifetime. There have been many times something popped up years into recovery.
A d I had a solution.
Something important on the next step- step 9-
Except when to do so would injure them or others. I had to really take a good look for making amends- checking my motives-where it had the possibility of hurting someone else. I wanted to sweep off my side of the street, but I also didn't want to bring something up that could cause trauma. It would t have been wise to run to the husbands of the wives I slept with to make amends.
There were some amends I didn't go right out and do. I wasn't willing. Yet.
There were others I wasn't sure about my motive, so I prayed to God, then waited for an answer.

Good on ya for asking questions and getting this far in the steps!
F.E.A.R.=
False
Evidence
Appearing
Real

january161992

my sponsor said my 8th step list was incomplete because i didnt include my parents

he had to educate me that parents generally love their children and the fact that i completely divorced myself from my family in the 80s when i was trying to drink myself to death hurt my parents

i thought hurt only meant stealing or something bad like that

i added my parents to my 8th step list

Tommyh

january,I stood,sat,and knelt by my parents graves many times.I talked,prayed,read letters and finally one day it was over.I was able to find peace with what I had done to mine.

Centered3

My parents were extremely emotionally/psychologically abusive. I didn't harm them so I had no amends to make. However, I did make a living amends and it was an amazing experience. I was told "be nice", "go there for what you can do for them", "be kind, loving, tolerant, and patient", "bring God with you (most important), as well as "set boundaries where you need to and take care of yourself because as God's children, we do not grovel or crawl".

The most important thing I realized when making my living amends to them, was that *I* changed how I react and respond to them, but just because I changed does not mean they will. And I've accepted that.

To answer your question, harm can be physical, emotional, sexual, financial, or any self-seeking behavior if you're thinking of yourself and not others. So no, harm is much more than "stealing" and things like that. Something I was taught early on to keep in mind: "Hurt people hurt."

The beauty of doing a 4th step that includes a "column 4" is that we see in column 2 harms (or things we perceived as harms) others did that hurt us, and that in column 4, we see how we harmed others by our selfish, self-seeking, self-centered fear based ways of living. We forgive others and we forgive ourselves. It's a full circle, really. And God forgives us, too, for not doing His will. Forgiveness doesn't mean we're ok with what happened, but that we are letting go of the anger now and make the choice to live in the present moment instead of the past.

The amends to your parents sounds like you were only thinking of yourself (selfish, which most of us alcoholics/addicts are when suffering from our spiritual malady) when you cut them off when you were drinking.

An amends would be owning up to that, apologizing, asking if there was anything else they'd like to say, and most importantly, changing your behavior going forward.

I wonder if there is a list somewhere of types and examples of harms.

mfanch

I didn't need to "make" an 8th step list per se. I already made it when I did my 4th step (and the BB mentions this on pg 76). People I had directly harmed was easy enough. The people on the other lists (resentment, fears, sex lists) weren't so easy. That is where the 4th column of these lists is so important!! Where was I "selfish, dishonest, self-seeking, and frightened?" Many amends come from there.

There was a lot of abuse in my family of origin. Although I did not "harm" them in a direct, outward way, I used my childhood experience to define them, myself, and make decisions. I did view them as bad people rather than sick. That is where my amends came from for my family. I was judgmental and afraid. I worked with my sponsor to plan the appropriate amends. Once done, more fear fell away and I forgave them as sick people who lacked tools. For they were a product of their own abusive upbringings. It was an amazing experience.

mfanch

tomsteve

I found it important to include the sex and fear inventory in the 8th step,too.

Berrybean

I remember being very surprised that most of my items on my amends list ended up coming from my resentments list when I looked at, and truly acknowledged my own part in things that had bothered me for years. My sponsor laughed when I pointed that out to her. Well, I suppose that was the inventory I entered into with the most gusto so I reaped what I sowed there didn't I. Lol.

As far as how best to make amends, I went through the list and was very anxious about how to go about doing this for most of the items on there. Obviously financial ones were fairly straightforward. Some, esp ones that came from 'Justified' Resentments, were incredibly difficult for me to find clarify on alone. But thankfully my sponsor was able to help me work through them and make a plan of action for tackling each one. Actually many of mine ended up being Living Amends. That was a massive relief at first. Then I realised that this meant each of these amends would be on-going. Gahhhhh! Seemed pretty impossible at first. Thank goodness for 'Progress not Perfection' eh!