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We Agnostics question

Old 12-29-2010, 09:47 AM
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Question We Agnostics question

This is related to step three and turning your will and life over to God. We Agnostics seems to promote the idea of God as creator rather than God of your understanding. I was wondering first if people agree with this statement or not, and then whether this effects your ability to work step three as described in the book. thanks
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:51 PM
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To work steps 2 & 3, one *must* have some concept of a Higher Power. The chapter "We Agnostics" speaks specifically to those having difficulties with grasping the concept. I think you are reading things into it that aren't there.

One good explanation I heard on a speaker recording suggested that someone simply envision a Higher Power that is exactly as they wished it to be.....end of exercise! For me, the key point was that, whatever that Power is, it is NOT me. Its not a complicated concept, unless we choose to make it so!
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:47 PM
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Agnostic is natural...we tend to not believe what we cannot see, feel or touch.

Lots of people screw around with what the steps say. The bottom line is an HP is open ended.

Lots of "we agnostics" is very condecending, but if you look at it from another perspective..there is room for the agnostic. The aithiest has a harder row to hoe, but the steps still have room for them.

Historically the first AA members were from a christian background, but that doesn't mean the solution is only for christians. It was simply couched in terms that they shared in common.
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Old 12-29-2010, 07:49 PM
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Actually, thenameiso....... "We Agnostics" isn't step 3, it's step 2. Step 3 begins on page 60, in the middle of the page where it reads, "Being convinced (of the A, B, C;s), we were at Step 3...." Basically, just about everything prior to page 60 is step 1 and 2. Of those pages, there are 59 #'d pages + 30 Roman Numerals ....or about 80 pages. Of those 80, all of them up to p44 (We Agnostics) deal with Step 1.

That bit out of the way, I only find "Creator" used once in We Agnostics, on p56....but it's used two or three times in previous chapters. Bill (and the first 100 who contributed to the book) spoke about THEIR experience with THEIR Higher Power, and their experience may be different than yours.

When you look at Step 2, it says CAME TO BELIEVE that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Came to believe tells me that it's a process...an ongoing process....not necessarily something you or anyone is going to get completely, right away. Being open...and willing....to the process is the key. Page 44 drives the point home with, "...some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life - or else." They didn't say "find a Christian way of life," a "Muslim way of life," a "Buddhist way of life," nor do they mention anything about Religion.....they're simply say a spiritual way of life. You're free to choose what that looks like. Whether your HP is God or not it up to you. Whether your HP is The Creator or not is up to you.

In the United States (where the book was written), the majority of the ppl are Christians (or something close to being a Christian). Just on the percentages, most ppl you run into who are "spiritual" will tend to fall into one of the Christian faiths (or something similar to a Christian faith) . That was true of Bill, Bob and the first 100, so that's what went into the book. And don't forget, the book came out in 1939. By then, Bill had about 5 yrs in sobriety, Dr Bob had 4+/-. Their "experience" with and understanding of their HP changed over those years (ref. Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers and AA Comes of Age) as it did for the first 100.....as it has for me in my 3+years...and as I'm sure it will for you when you put some years under your belt.

And keep in mind, "God" is a pretty roomy term..... IMO, Allah, Jesus, God, Jehovah, the Great Cosmic Force, etc..... they're all different "names" for the same thing. Lots of folks view the term "God" as a Christian name.....but it doesn't have to be that way. To me, we're all praying to the same dude....regardless of what we call Him/Her/It.

And again.....the steps don't instruct you to "understand who/what God is." That's simply not possible..especially when you're first tackling the subject. The steps will bring you to your own personal experience with a HP of your own understanding. You'll come to that understanding by working the steps and surrendering to the process of the steps. And like I said above, your understanding of your HP will likely change over time just like mine has.

Don't stress out over whether "your understanding" is complete now....or whether it's "right" or not. The main thing is that we realize that, if nothing else, WE are not the highest power......a good dose of alcoholism should be enough to convince us that we're certainly not more powerful than booze......and a solid inventory in step 4 will teach your infinitely more about what power you have and don't have.

Pages 44-45 hit a little harder where they warn that "a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were (not) sufficient to overcome alcoholism. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshaled by the will, were not sufficient, they failed utterly. Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a powerby which we could life and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves."

Hope that helps....
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by thenameiso View Post
This is related to step three and turning your will and life over to God. We Agnostics seems to promote the idea of God as creator rather than God of your understanding. I was wondering first if people agree with this statement or not, and then whether this effects your ability to work step three as described in the book. thanks
Okay interesting. One reference for Step 3 that I like is from From "Barefoot" Bill L. A , (Working Step 3) a through read for sure...yet a good one.

I personally don't have a Higher Power of my understanding that resembles anything like like in the Big Book.

I see the BB authors delineate their connection to a Higher Power...God as they understand him. Then instruct the reader how that relation works with regards to the 12 Steps. It is exactly their path...again their path...to their HP.

Is my understanding of God no less because I have a different understanding? Is my spiritual connection to my HP less significant because I don't have the exact understanding of God as the authors of the BB have?

To what ends can I, a follower of the 12 Steps work a program of recovery and still maintain the integrity of a HP that personally relates to me?

In question is my understanding of an HP. But this question need not be answered by the BB authors. For that would be beyond mere suggestion into the realm of distinct instruction come of. Violating any resemblance of a program of suggestion...I guess it need not be.

I have been exposed to those that have interpreted the 12 Step program of AA...in a rather codified way, worked a program of recovery as such. I recognize such individuals quickly. I offer no resistance...it is as it has been instructed to those...blessed be in all your interpretations. Obviously it has worked for you and countless others.

Me, I merely accept my role as the more interpretive member of AA as a whole. Staying sober ODAAT. And fitting into a program that is completely counter to my world view. What an interesting trip it is.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:40 AM
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I agree with what you said... I don't think the author of the chapter gives room to interpret it so that God to be a "God as we understand God". It is of a specific type of God that has a level of participation in our lives (the all powerful creator). I also feel like the chapter is towards those who have become disillusioned by God and religion and is really trying to convince them to come back into the flock and accept God once again. I felt like the author is saying that it's OK to be agnostic, but your wrong.

I personally found no comfort in the "We Agnostics" chapter. I pretty much ignore the chapter because I begin to become a little bit self-righteous and condescending (which does more harm than good for my recovery).

I feel uncomfortable using the term "God" and "Power" (with a capital 'P') because I feel like those terms imply something much more than just something greater than ourselves. The way I try to get around this is by replacing every reference to "God as we understand God" (and even "a Power greater than ourselves") with "a resource that is greater than ourselves". When I do that, I can comfortably understand and accept not only step 3, but step 2 as well.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:55 PM
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It took me years to get past the third step. Mostly because the 12 & 12 said, "that other Steps of the A.A. program can be practiced with success only when Step Three is given a determinded & persistent trail."
Then I heard a speeker say," When you pick up a pencil & paper to do your fourth step inventory, you have done the third step well enough to go on with the rest of the program!"
Worked for me.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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When we got to Step 2 before I got sober, I never took this seriously because I didnt believe I needed to be restored to sanity because I didnt believe I was insane since I never was arrested, I wasnt living on the streets, etc etc etc. Through very good sponsorship, I saw my alcoholic insanity as this: repeated attempts to control AND enjoy my drinking, swearing off drinking after a bad run forever and really meaning it and then going back to it with months of abstinence...and suffering from strange mental blank spots where alcohol is concerned I can not differentiate the true from the false..."it wont hurt me this time and here's how...."

That was what I needed to see to believe that I needed to be restored to sanity, and seeing that playing the old tape through wont work for me, it made me open minded to the God thing as I needed to be at that point. Additionally, seeing people in AA put this process into their lives and get better also gave me the idea that "if it worked for them then maybe it will work for me"....the mustard seed of willingness to believ I had, and I went with it...my sponsor had me list the qualities I would want a best friend to have, and that was God for me. It worked.

When we got to Step 3, there were some requirements...was i convinced of the ABC's? And was i convinced that my life run on self-will cant be a success?

If I wasnt, why would I wanna turm my life over to God?

Then, my excperience is the prayer is just an affirmation of the 3rd step decision, and I have taken the 3rd step when I am writing a resentment list. Why? Because We Agnostics tells us that sometimes we had to SEARCH FEARLESSLY, but He was there, and by writing this 4th Step is my searching fearlessly....when I heard Bob D say this it blew the doors open for me....

It makes sense when you think about it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:46 PM
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:16 AM
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This chapter i found baffling when I first came into the rooms. I still read it and came to really like it. I found it useful to read this in conjunction with specifically step 2 in the 12 & 12. The nest chapter (in the 12 & 12) is also quite useful. As has been said before the step says "Came to believe..." and "could restore us to sanity".

I spent an awful ammount of time on this step. I thought I had to be a philospher or theologian. I spent ages trying to find a god. Buddha, Loki and Jehovah. Yet, while i liked these things and had a lot of time for people who had them as their higher power; I could not take the leap of faith.

Then a kindly man spoke to me one day. You been coming a while haven't you. Yeah I said. Why do you keep coming back. Because I believe AA will help me not drink one day at a time and help me not be so nuts. There you go, at this point you are believe AA, a power greater than you could help you not drink and restore your sanity. He also said other faith would/could happen if open to it.

So here I am a former atheist, now a praying agnostic ( because I just dont know about god(s)) who still believes the steps and AA can restore my sanity. I suspect their might be a guardian spirit or what not but cant prove it. It was so much easier when I didn't have to know but just belived that something greater than me could help restore my sanity. The only thing is I know if there is a higher power, is that its not me!! When I drank sometimes I would oscillate in thinking I was worse than poo on a shoe and that I was the new son of god.

I now pray something I had never done, I use the word Lord out of habit, as that was the way I was taught when I was a kid. It started with the serenity prayer and the St Francis prayer. I pray that I can be useful little engine and do its will and not mine. I also pray that my defects of character to be taken away and for help to pass through the day being a help to people and that my anger be curbed just for the day. I pray for willingness to do that I dont want to do. I pray for peoples HP to give them what their HP thinks they need. I dont know whether these prayers go to Juda, Allah, buddah or to the inbox of some space alien; working on an intergalatic garbage hauler, called Dave. But prayer helps this alcoholic.

One day I hope to have a higher power, as yet I dont have one, but I am willing to have one and maybe when the HP is ready to grant me knowledge of him/her/it I will know.

I hope this might help. If it doesn't, no biggie, just my experience.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:25 AM
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I struggled with this at first. I even thought I would go to meetings but not really work any steps, because I don't covet a religious God. But I'm at almost 60 days now, and my mom (who has been in the program 35+ years) told me something the other day. I was stressing about something or other (trivial I'm sure) and she said "You can plan, but you can't plan outcomes." Well that hit home with me. Just knowing that when I've done all I can do, it's out of my hands. I don't know exactly who takes care of the rest, but it's not ME. I don't have to picture Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. I just have to know that there are things I can't control. I'm ok with this!
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobochk View Post
I don't have to picture Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. I just have to know that there are things I can't control. I'm ok with this!

Congrats on your 2 months Hobochk! Exactly. You can choose your own concept of a Higher power of your understanding. As long as it isn't yourself.

My higher power is G O D - Group of Drunks and that is what has worked for me. That is what I love about this program. Being able to chose your own concept of a HP. If I was told I had to go to church and believe in any one's else's God I wouldn't of stayed in AA.
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Old 11-27-2011, 06:00 AM
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I had no concept whatsoever of who God was until I was halfway thru my 4th step. We Agnostics says that our Creator is deep down inside of us, but the word Creator is just one mother word Bill uses for God.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:56 AM
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I made AA my Higher Power. The third step tells me to turn my will and my life over to my HP. So, it's telling me to do the rest of the steps if I want to get sober.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:25 AM
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I'm at Step 3 today, meeting my sponsor to "work" this step... she says it's the first action step.

At this point, I'm seeing the HP as: AA program itself (collective experience, wisdom, etc); internal "god" or whatever the common thread that runs through everything that is alive... I guess it could be a pantheistic view, and I think about the god molecule (higgs boson) to visualize this; and then I have buddhist leanings as well and have started a meditation practice, so I meditate rather than "pray" to some external, creator type of God figure.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:17 PM
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I too struggled with the God concept in the beginning and it took me several months to finally understand that the book mean simplye that I AM NOT IN CHARGE. something, or someone else has to be, or I can not stay sober. After I was able to accept that I started to feel the presence of a higher power in my life.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:21 PM
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Thanks, yes I get that it is not me. But viewing it in the negative that way, that I am "not" god doesn't help me so much as trying to visualize it in the positive... what is that other thing out there that I am not? I hope this makes sense.

So, it's very easy for me to see AA program (power in numbers concept, and collective wisdom) and the people in it as that thing, first and foremost. Then I can also see this power as energy... energy pervading all life and all living things. Quantum physics perhaps? The unexplained matter than holds all living things together, the god molecule.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:36 PM
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I gotta HP real quick.
but then about 17ish months into recovery, I was comin back from a visit to my oncologist. we were settin up for a serious round of chemo for me, and everything I was told had me in a wee bit of shock.
anyways, I had to stop for gas on the way back. I was leanin against the car toppin of the tank and saw a HUGE maple tree out in a farmers field. it occurred to me:"huh. I can see all them branches on that tree right now. but come summer, the leaves are covering up the branches and I cant see the branches, but I know them branches are there holding up those leaves."
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:38 PM
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we claim spiritual progress over spiritual perfection.
it doesn't matter how deep my understanding of my HP gets, it will always fall short, for to fully understand and comprehend my HP means I am equal. I did that before. it didn't work too good,other than to get me into the doors of AA.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
I was leanin against the car toppin of the tank and saw a HUGE maple tree out in a farmers field. it occurred to me:"huh. I can see all them branches on that tree right now. but come summer, the leaves are covering up the branches and I cant see the branches, but I know them branches are there holding up those leaves."
That is scientific observation, I'd say... but sure, I get what you mean about this metaphor.
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