Prayer.

[Dan]

Modern prayer researchers currently identify four modes of prayer used in the west today. Does an additional mode exist? Is there a fifth mode of prayer that allows us to participate in the outcome of the events within our bodies as well as the world around us? Recent findings in remote temple sites where these traditions remain today, combined with new research into some of the most sacred and esoteric traditions of our past, lead me to believe that the answer is "Yes!"

Much of our conditioning in western traditions for the last one and one half millennia has invited us to "ask" that specific circumstances in our world change through divine intervention; that our prayers be answered. In our well-intentioned asking, however, we may unknowingly empower the very conditions that we are praying to change. For example, when we ask, "Dear God, please let there be peace in the world," in effect we are stating that peace does not exist in the present. Ancient traditions remind us that prayers of asking are one form of prayer, among other forms, that empower us to find peace in our world through the quality of thought, feeling and emotion that we create in our body. Once we allow the qualities of peace in our mind and fuel our prayer through feelings of peace in our body, the fifth mode of prayer states that the outcome has already happened.

Quantum science now takes this idea one step further, stating that it is precisely such conditions of feeling that creation responds to, by matching the feeling (prayer) of our inner world with like conditions in our outer world. Though the outcome of our prayer may not yet be apparent in our outer world, we are invited to acknowledge our communion with creation and live as if our prayer has already been answered.

Through the words of another time, the ancients invited us to embrace our lost mode of prayer as a consciousness that we become, rather than a prescribed form of action that we perform upon occasion. In words that are as simple as they are elegant, we are reminded to be "surrounded" by the answer to our prayers and "enveloped" by the conditions that we choose to experience. In the modern idiom, this description suggests to us that to effect change in our world, we are invited to first have the feelings of the change having happened.

As modern science continues to validate a relationship between our thoughts, feelings and dreams with the world that surrounds us, it becomes more likely that a forgotten bridge links our prayers with that of our experience. The beauty of such an inner technology is that it is based upon human qualities that we already possess. From the prophets who saw us in their dreams, we are reminded that in honoring all life, we accomplish nothing less than the survival of our species and the future of the only home we know.

Comparing Modes of Prayer Through the Example of Global Peace

Logic-based prayer: asking for intervention

1. We Focus upon present conditions where we believe that peace does not exist.

2. We may feel helpless, powerless or angry at the events and conditions that we are witness to.

3. We employ our prayer of asking by inviting divine intervention from a higher power to bring peace to bear upon individuals, conditions and places where we believe that peace is absent.

4. Through our asking, we may unknowingly affirm the very conditions that we least desire. When we say "Please let there be peace," for example, we are declaring that peace is not present in a particular situation. In doing so, we may actually fuel the condition that we have chosen to change.

5. We continue to ask for intervention until we see the change actually come to pass in our world.


Feeling-based prayer: knowing that our prayer is already answered

1. We witness all events, those of peace and those that we see as the absence of peace, as possibilities without judgement of right, wrong, bad or good.

2. We release our judgement of the situation by Blessing those conditions that have caused us pain. The Blessing does not condone or consent to the event or condition. Rather, it acknowledges that the event is part of the single source of all that is. (Please see the book, Walking Between the Worlds: The Science of Compassion, for details.)

3. By feeling the feelings of our prayer already answered, we demonstrate the ancient quantum principle stating that the conditions of peace within our bodies are mirrored in the world beyond our bodies.

4. We acknowledge the power of our prayer and know (feel) that the focus of our prayer has already come to pass.

5. Our prayer now consists of:

1. acknowledging the peace already is present in our world by living from the knowledge that such changes have occurred.

2. empowering our prayer by giving thanks for the opportunity to choose peace over suffering.


Source.

[roa]

Dan,

"acknowledging the peace already is present in our world by living from the knowledge that such changes have occurred.

empowering our prayer by giving thanks for the opportunity to choose peace over suffering."

I have practiced this kind of prayer for years and firmly believe that "asking prayer" does in fact acknowledge and increase that which we are trying to avoid. For example when I am asked to pray for healing, I do not "see" the person in an unhealthy state, but rather I "see" them as whole, in health.

I believe this is proven to be effective even in a simple experiment with plants. Whereby plants subjected to positive thought respond and grow better than those not subjected to the same positive thought. There have been many studies done with human "subjects" proving humans also respond to positive thought. The emerging field of energy medicine is based on those principles. In the practice of distance healing, it is not uncommon for recipients to know when the "energy" (or prayer) is being directed toward them. I not only find this facinating but also practice energy medicine.

Very interesting subject, Dan. Thanks for getting me thinking about this again. My true passion lies in the power of prayer and energy medicine.

Ro

[Ann]

I think it is interesting what science can find, and I truly do believe in the power of prayer. Prayer helps me and hopefully helps the person or situation I am praying about. I don't know or pretend to understand the scientific reasons that may be, but I think I know the spiritual reasons and that works for me.

If I am spiritually connected to the God of my understanding through all things in the universe, then it makes sense that my prayers would also be connected in some way. I'm just not convinced that science understands the spirit yet.

Just my thoughts.

Hugs
Ann

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Ann

I'm just not convinced that science understands the spirit yet.

It never will. Spirit's got like a 100,000 year head start on where it's going. Science will forever play catch up, if I'm not able to see how they complement eachother rather than exclude their respective places in my life.

...a forgotten bridge links our prayers with that of our experience.

Might take another 100,000 years to remember that bridge.

But that's very Darwinian of me

[Ann]

Hmmm, I think science is part of it, it's part of everything in the universe and how it all interacts to be how it is today. It's the scientists who concern me, and their interpretations of what they consider "scientific" fact. I believe in research and I believe that we all learn from it and that the world today is a better place because of it. But researching prayer and the spirit have me wondering if they don't sometimes look at results and then make them fit the causes.

Keep in mind this is just one codie's thought, and I'm feeling free to express it here for the sake of discussion, and not because I don't respect that others may see it quite differently.

My feelings are that the "spirit" is something within us that connects us with everything else in the universe and with what I call God. I don't think the universe got here by a great cosmic accident, nor do I think that two people procreated a whole bunch of other people and here we are. Again, just my personal views.

So, IF the spirit is that connection, then it is also a "message" centre of sorts. Intuition, gut feelings, and instinct may all be our spirit's way of receiving messages. And if we can receive, then perhaps we can send, through prayer, positive or negative thought waves, or other "spiritual" means.

Here's the catch, for me anyway, I think that the Source of this power, through which it all flows, is what I call God. What others call God isn't important to me. God, The Great Spirit, The Beloved (in Sufi poetry) is all the same source to me. It's a choice of language thing, what we call It/Him/Her.

Where science and I become separated, is that I am uncertain that there is or ever will be a "great truth", a scientific explanation for what this is or how this happens. Perhaps there will. Once upon a time people believed, truly believed that the earth was flat. Science proved it different. That said, I think that there is and always will be mysteries of spirit that are simply beyond human comprehension, now, later, and with or without that bridge.

I need to rest now, LOL, and think about what I just said. But I think I said it clearly and the way I intended.

Your thoughts on this interest me, and the thoughts of others.

Hugs
Ann

[historyteach]

Thanks for posting this, Dan.
It contains ideas revealed in Jewish mysticism too, (I am NOT a scholar of the Kabbalah, I have only done readings on it.)
I think Ann makes a point in her understanding of the connection of all to the Source, which I too call G*D.
I honestly don't think it matters if it can be understood by science. Well, maybe for those who need that type of proof. But, then, they would probably be sceptical anyway of the proof! Bottom line, "proof" is irrelevent to me. It is experiential. The experience of that connection is the only way it can be known, in my opinion. Those who have experienced it, know it to be. Those who haven't, doubt.
I've read studies - double blind studies - where patients where prayed for. Neither the doctor nor the patient was aware of the prayers being sent. The patients healed faster. Just as Ro's plant study showed.
But, I think that this post points out a very important piece often left out. That by dwelling on the negative, we increase it. By recognizing the positive, we also increase that. We have choices in life. Dispite the chaos I'm presently experiencing, I choose to focus on the positive. The JOY! The blessings I have be given, through no other reason than that gift of G*D.
I'm human. I do get caught up in the chaos at times. This is where I attempt to recall that joy, those blessings, the positives. In doing so, my world changes.

On another thread, (over in naranon), we have decided that at 6PM EST, we will all say the word, "love" at once.
I invite any who read this to join us....
And imagine the possibility....
Shalom!

[Ann]

I've read about those power of prayers studies too, Teach, and find them amazing.

I need to claify one thing that I think I missed. I agree with everyone that our own positive or negative energy affects us and perhaps those around us or even those for whom we pray. I think what I missed is saying that I don't believe it all comes from us, that God has the most important part of this.

If I pray for rain, and I am a farmer, perhaps my positive energy will flow into the sky and help this happen. But let's say that next door, they are praying for sunshine, for other good reasons, and their "prayer" energy starts flowing too. This is where I think God is in charge of all of this. He hears our prayers and it is His will that will be done. Perhaps God has other plans for me, that farming is not where I am supposed to be, so if I don't get my crop, perhaps I will move to the city. Once in the city, I may do something good like save a child from running in front of a car...see where I am going with this?

I think that there is a bigger plan than just our prayer energy. That's where science and I part ways. I think that God is with us when good happens, and I also think that he is with us when bad things befall us. It is OUR faith that determines whether WE stay connected with Him. He is always connected to us, if we leave the channel (spirit) open.

I could site other examples, but I think you get my drift?

Hugs
Ann

[splendra]

((((Dan))))

I do love you and even more so with you bringing up this subject!

A scientific definition of God that I really like is:"energy neither created or destoryed". My prayer can be like this too neither created or destoryed....it's deep and I am really reaching inside to try and pull out the words. I learned that prayer is answered always and that because we are created in God's image our words are powerful.....so whatever we affirm is what is...

Like ((((roa)))) I belive in distance healing , energy healing or, even being a prayer warrior. I too wish to spend as much time as I can developing in these areas. Thanx Dan!!

[Dan]

... Knowing that my prayer is already answered...

Anyone else really like that?

So what am I praying for then...
Ooooo, I know

I pray that I can somehow overcome my human condition, with all it's limitations, to see.

I don't think we've evolved enough yet, as a sentient species, to know either way, whether prayer works or not.

[indigo]

I truly beleive that all is one and no truth any more or less than another concerning our connectedness.

Sensing Unbroken Wholeness

We may then consider every cell in the human body as a library of information. Each cell is made of molecules, each molecule is made of atoms, and atoms are made of electrons, neutrons, and protons. In connection with Einstein's familiar formula, E=mc2, we have been taught that matter and energy are equivalent, that we can convert energy into matter, and that the energy in a piece of matter is equal to the mass of the matter times the speed of light squared. Thus, even minute amounts of matter represent a lot of energy However, while in the past it was believed that electrons were particles-matter existing at some point in space-now, according to particle physics, electrons are not particles all of the time, but sometimes behave like waves of light. The current consensus is that they are both wave-like and particle-like, as is all matter. In fact, in the world of quantum physics, it seems these elementary "particles" (including electrons) don't really exist at all. What does exist are relationships, correlations, tendencies to actualize from a multifaceted set of potentials. A quantum physicist might say that electrons, like all other subatomic particles, are described by a "probability density state." At this level it is strikingly evident that there may be no objective physical reality at all. What the scientific community once thought was there in the sub-atomic realm and what the educated world was taught to perceive as real simply does not exist.

The new physics tells us that matter may actually be nothing more than a series of patterns out of focus and that subatomic "particles" aren't really made of energy, but simply are energy! The subatomic world of electrons, protons, and neutrons may thus be viewed as patterns of vibration within what Rupert Sheidrake calls a morphogenetic field, an organizing field that underlies a system's structure.

We know we can convert matter into energy. We can burn wood and get heat. We can mathematically determine how much heat we would get from a pile of wood by using Einstein's formula. And the reverse is also true; energy can be converted into matter. For example, high-energy laser light can be observed to produce particle and anti-particle pairs. Cosmic rays, which are highly charged photons of light, have been observed to change form and become matter. Light, X-rays, and radio waves can all be converted back to particles. When their waves are slowed down they attain mass while retaining some wave-like characteristics.

Light also can either be considered a wave or a stream of particles. We know that photons carry energy, and that the amount of energy carried by a photon is proportional to the frequency of the light. That is, the higher the wave frequency, the more energy it carries. For example, X-rays and ultraviolet light have high frequency and high energy, while radio waves and infrared waves have low frequency and low energy.

Just as surprising as the apparent ethereal qualities of matter is the fact that it is the observer who brings the possibilities of the micro-world into existence. In experiment after experiment, it has been shown that when the observed function, the wave, interacts with the observing system, the person making the measurement, it changes to a new state. And whether what comes into actuality is a wave or a particle depends solely on the structure of the experiment. One interesting aspect of the apparent dual representative state of matter is that it is not a dual property of the particle, but rather a property of experimental observations. Niels Bohr, who is regarded as the father of quantum physics, pointed out that a particle only becomes a particle when someone is looking at it. The new physics tells us that the observer cannot observe anything without changing what he sees. Moreover, Princeton researchers Brenda I. Dunne and Robert G. Jahn have shown that this concept is not limited to the microworld of quantum interactions. Astonishingly, they have, through a series of well documented experiments, established that our minds, our intent, can alter the outcome of events.

The implications of these findings are far reaching and significant for the world of everyday activity and human interaction. They imply that by our conscious intent we bring into manifestation what we want to perceive-that we can and do shape our reality.

In addition, according to new scientific thought, all matter and we our-selves consist of forms of light. In his book Vibrational Medicine, physician Richard Gerber actually describes all matter as "frozen light," light which has been slowed down and become solid. A quantum physicist would say that light in this context does not slow down-it always moves at the speed of light. Rather the light's photons get absorbed; its energy has been transferred. Gerber points out that atoms are primarily empty space. What fills them, he says, are packets of light that sometimes act as matter.

If our bodies, at least metaphorically, are made of frozen light, they maintain the characteristics of light, which means they have frequency. Matter then may be thought of as light of a higher density. Thus, drawing on the implications of modern physics, we can conclude that human beings are made of light held in matter.

It is important to stress that Gerber's concept of matter as frozen light may not be merely metaphoric. Gerber describes the cellular matrix of the physical body as a complex energy interference pattern, interpenetrated by the organizing bio energetic field of the etheric body. The physical body is therefore an energy field, and the field is made up of segments of vibration. As physicist Max Planck determined, higher frequency light means higher energy light. This concept also applies to what we think of as matter because we now know that all matter, not just quantum matter, also has frequency and thus waves-another scientific revelation that has radically changed the way we see the physical world. Using simple equations, Louis De Broglie discovered the wavelengths of waves that correspond to matter, which are not visible to us. Breakthroughs in quantum physics imply that all matter, including matter that makes up the human body, is itself made up of waves of light. It is therefore interesting to note that many ancient teachings saw humans as engendered by light, as children of light.

The Nobel Prize winning physicist David Bohm has written about what he calls the implicate order of the holographic universe. This concept suggests that the entire universe is an ever-changing cosmic hologram that is layered with information. Each layer holds a higher order of information and each higher order is enfolded in an aspect of space/time. The higher order may be thought of as consciousness that filters wave-like into form. Because it is a hologram, every segment contains information about the entire universe. Thus, consciousness is indeed in all things. Light is both the medium and the message.

Moreover, Bohm's work in quantum physics suggests that at the subatomic level all points in space are essentially the same, and therefore nothing is actually separate from anything else. This property is called non-locality. Bell's Theorem, developed a few years later by J. S. Bell, a Swiss physicist, provided mathematical proof of non-locality.'0 If we think about locality in terms of the particle behavior of light (a specific point in space), then non-locality can be seen in terms of light behaving as a wave (indistinguishable and interconnected).

What these concepts tell us is that, at the heart of our universe, there are no separate parts to anything, and that everything is connected to everything else. Moreover, they explain how information can be transferred superluminously, or faster than the speed of light. For example, if two photons are non-locally connected, communication between them can be instantaneous because they are not truly separate.

These discoveries from quantum physics have important implications for the evolution of human consciousness predicted by the Andean prophecies. As Bohm states, the world is an "unbroken wholeness"; everything is non-locally interconnected. We need to learn to perceive holistically because our world and the entire universe is actually interconnected. It is erroneous to continue to perceive our world as a conglomeration of separate, unrelated parts. In light of emergent scientific principles, the Cartesian world view is decidedly misleading.

Moreover, this holistic way of perceiving the world mirrors the teachings of ancient people such as the Inca. … Buddhist and Hindu teachings have long told us that everything is energy dancing in form, and that the dance is a continuous weaving of the form and the formless. Now research from the frontiers of science is telling us the same thing.

namasté indigo

[Ann]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

... Knowing that my prayer is already answered...

Anyone else really like that?

So what am I praying for then...
Ooooo, I know

I pray that I can somehow overcome my human condition, with all it's limitations, to see.

I don't think we've evolved enough yet, as a sentient species, to know either way, whether prayer works or not.

Dan, for you personally to think prayer works, what does it take? If you say a prayer, what is it that makes you think it has or has not been answered? And if this is too personal, don't answer, okay. I'm asking just straight up, and out of interest not with any sense of debate of right or wrong. There IS no right or wrong here, just theory.

I know for me, I used to think my prayer was not answered when God didn't do anything apparent to my request. But, over time, I could see a bigger answer, like the story of the farmer, and I could see that God did answer my prayer, just not with the same answer I had in mind. Does that make sense?

My experience tells me that for me, prayer works. I can't prove it, science can't analyze it or may write it all off to coincidence or cosmic energy, but something inside of me, my spirit, knows that my prayer was answered.

And sometimes I don't feel it has been. Like when I pray for my son. But my faith based on my experience tells me it will be, in God's way and God's time.

And...if I feel my prayers have been answered, and let's say Dan (or anyone else) feels theirs has not...does that mean that my prayers are stronger or send out more energy? Or does that mean that they are not connected? Ot is it just a matter of perspective and things are only as we percieve them to be?

I'm curious. I'm also liking hearing other views on how prayer works for them and what they feel prayer is. I've never given it a lot of thought before.

Hugs
Ann

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Ann

Dan, for you personally to think prayer works, what does it take? If you say a prayer, what is it that makes you think it has or has not been answered?

That's just it...
I don't pray for something to happen, or to be given something, but rather, I pray that I may be able to see what it is that is already there, but invisible to my limited perceptions.
I'm convinced that everything already exists in the world around me, and the world within me, to achieve happiness.
But I can't see it, or most of it, most days.

That may sound like some anarcho/zen buddhist bullshit to some, but to me, it simplifies a lot of the human condition, of which I am, sadly sometimes, a part of.

[roa]

Indigo - I love you.

When I pray I do not pray for a specific result, but only invision the one I am praying for surrounded by light...sending light (energy) and love. Believing it is not up to me to meddle in the details of another's journey (karma). It is praying for the highest good for any situation.

Back in the days before children, when my life contained more quiet than chaos and meditation was a larger part of my life, during deep meditaion I could see the energy contained in trees, people, things and that has stayed with me always. I know we are all connected, all things are connected. It is indeed a beautiful thing.

Ro

[Gabe]

"This is something that most Druids will recognize. The ‘Awen’, or inspiration, is both the driving force of the creation, and is also responsible for its beginnings. One of the central features of Druidry, the desire to understand the energy of life itself, to honour ‘Awen’ and to draw it into oneself, is also a central feature of Christianity. The language is different, but the meaning is strikingly similar. This is prayer, and prayer, for each of us, is a desire to enter into the sacred, the divine heart of the Universe. For each of us, prayer can be song or silence, action or stillness. For each of us, it is a sacred space where we are called into a relationship with the sacred."
~Richard Thomas

[Ann]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

I don't pray for something to happen, or to be given something, but rather, I pray that I may be able to see what it is that is already there, but invisible to my limited perceptions.
I'm convinced that everything already exists in the world around me, and the world within me, to achieve happiness.
But I can't see it, or most of it, most days.

I like that, and we're not so far apart. You pray for vision, I pray mostly for courage, strength and guidance, which is also vision in its own way. Courage and strength DO lie within me, I pray to feel it and see it. Guidance might be the result, yes? And for me...patience, because it takes time and patience for me to see clearly.

So, maybe my question, if you don't mind, shoud be "to what or whom do you pray?" I don't mean that in a religious sense, I mean do you percieve one "greater being" of some sort, or pray as a connection to something else.

For me, to help me visualize and stay focused mentally, I pray to a power I call God and I visualize God in a fairly traditional way, as a wise old man in a white robe who has and is the power. That's just me and how I do it. It's not the same vision I had of God in the church I grew up in. And since nobody knows what God looks like, I think it's acceptable for each of us to have a visual image in mind as traditional or untraditional as that image may be.

And Indigo, you know I love your deep thoughts and perspective, but I must confess I just don't understand it. Doesn't mean I don't validate it, I truly have no conception of what that means, so please don't think I'm just stepping past that.

Hugs
Ann

[historyteach]

Excellent ideas happening here!
Shalom!

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Ann

stay focused mentally

I quote this short sentence from your post for one reason only, and that is to answer your question of 'to what or whom do you pray?'

I believe that if there is such a thing as a typical human mindset, or pattern of thought and intentions, when it comes to prayer, then we are again liniting ourselves in our ability to understand.

I wonder what the shaman does, on top of the mountain.
Is he focusing mentally? I like to think he/she is doing the opposite; disassembling the mind's natural desire for focus, therefore opening up channels rarely used, if at all.

Writing that gave me a cramp

[roa]

Dan,

"I wonder what the shaman does, on top of the mountain.
Is he focusing mentally? I like to think he/she is doing the opposite; disassembling the mind's natural desire for focus, therefore opening up channels rarely used, if at all."

I would think becoming one with the energy...but I don't know. With energy medicine, one becomes a conduit for the energy and focuses the energy toward another.

As you believe all that is necessary for you to acheive happiness lies within, your dilema lies in accessing what is. That can be done through meditation, music, dance....among other things.

Ro

[historyteach]

Dan;
See, here below is what I mean...
Now, you ask...
"I wonder what the shaman does, on top of the mountain."

Well, in my thought, it is what ALL the mystics of the different religious/spiritual/philosophical ideas do. See what I mean here:

"B"H

At The Threshold
----------------

At the threshold of the ultimate good, where the highest sparks of
G-dliness lie on the ground before us, nobody bends over to pick them up.

Where the greatest of miracles occur, nobody lifts their eyes to
notice. The table is set for a feast, but we are all asleep -- and who will
wake us from our dreams?"

That is how we find the eternal Truths. imho. Searching for and finding them. I don't think any of us will learn/receive them all. I have only had moments of clarity. Elusiveness returns. And I search again.... But, like recovery, it is not the destination - but the journey that matters.
Shalom!

[Ann]

Ro, I haven't known you long, but I like what you write and in many ways I think we are on the same spiritual path. And Gabe, my own Celtic background gives me a curiousity and interest in the Druids and how they practiced their own spirituality. I have much to read and learn still as it is much different than I previously thought.

Something I see different about my perspective on all this, is that I think my roots are more along the line of "traditional" religion. Not of any one denomination, but when I pray, I feel that I am sharing my thoughts or spirit with God (as I perceive Him). Prayer for me is releasing my thoughts, gratitude, concerns, or positive and negative energy, to Him. "Turning it over" as we sometimes say, giving it all to Him to sort out and guide me. And for this I need focus or at least a lack of distraction, so that I can sort what I want to say and feel that it is strictly between God and me.

Meditation is when I clear my thoughts and try to listen to God speak back to me. If I were on the mountain, I believe that I could do both, just not at the same time. I would probably meditate more and pray less.

So my prayers go out from me to an entity that I call God. Traditional prayers practiced in a fairly traditional way. Teach, you know that I have asked you more than once to explain some of the practices from the Jewish faith, and I ask because I am interested in traditional practices and beliefs as much as I am in the practices we are discussing today.

My choice to be non-denominational came when I found church doctrine too restricting. I respect any church doctrine when I am in their places of worship, but my relationship with God is what I would call one-on-one, up close and personal. Yet I think my practices, including prayer, remain fairly traditional, yet encompass a wider spectrum of beliefs than most traditional practices allow.

And yet, is traditional so far apart from what we speak of? Traditional taught me that "God is Love", with love meaning everything positive and wonderful and healing and supporting...not unlike the positive energy we have spoken of.

I don't think our beliefs are so very far apart. Our practices may be, but in many ways represent the same thing, yes?

Hugs
Ann

[cece1960]

What an interesting conversation. Thank you all!
I am still stumbling through finding my spiritual connection. Unfortunately, like many others, it took crisis in my life to make me stand up and pay attention.
I pray to an HP to allow hope back into my soul. If there's no one hearing it, I will never know. I believe there is and thats what is important. If the results are not obvious immediately, I have come to be patient because I believe there will be results, someday.
For me prayer is much more a personal internal thing, rather than something I expect answered in the way of an action or event. When I pray, I narrow down the numerous thoughts racing through my head to a few specific desires, or goals, or preferred outcomes. By realizing what it is that I need to be "happy" I can then begin to weed out the things that are unimportant and clogging my thought process. Then, I can move onto the harder part, which is acceptance. I must be willing to accept less than perfect in the process. Its odd, but somehow this allows me to see things as positive, rather than negative, and to understand things as they were meant to be. Some may see that as prayers answered.
I think I am aided in that whole process by a HP. A coach, in a sense if you will.
Science will never "prove" what I have just explained because feelings are ever changing. Science has trouble when there are no absolutes, it relies on logic. Quite frankly, there is no logic in faith.
Cece

[Ann]

Originally Posted by cece1960

Science will never "prove" what I have just explained because feelings are ever changing. Science has trouble when there are no absolutes, it relies on logic. Quite frankly, there is no logic in faith.
Cece

Amen, Cece, well said.

To add a little confusion to all this, one of my favourite quotes by Melody Beattie (great Codie writer)..."Pray for whatever you want, God will sort out the junk."

That quote made my life and my prayers a whole lot easier.

Hugs
Ann

[indigo]

context with a new paradigm shift in human consciousness. The foundation for this term paper will be based on easy to understand connections made between quantum theory, non-locality, Bell’s theorem, and holograms. The goal is to open new avenues of understanding concerning the interconnectedness of all things in the broadest possible sense. Utilizing new scientific work concerning non-locality and holodynamics, we may be able to break down the apparent separateness that seemingly pervades human experiential observations. Key concepts will include the idea that each part of everything essentially contains the whole, and that everything is pervaded by underlying levels of interconnectedness.
"Bell's theorem proves that any model of reality, whether ordinary or contextual, must be connected by influences which do not respect the optical speed limit. If Bell's theorem is valid, we live in a superluminal reality. Bell's discovery of the necessary non-locality of deep reality is the most important achievement in reality research since the invention of quantum theory."

Nick Herbert in Quantum Reality



We experience material reality in the form of separate objects. However, modern physics is developing a conceptual understanding of the physical universe as an interconnected whole. New scientific insights concerning the nature of reality in relation to quantum theory are beginning to produce a new understanding in which nothing is separable from anything else. We are beginning to find that although this perceived separation between material objects is experientially real, it is not ultimately real.

Quantum Crystalizations of the Non-local Universal Mind

Let us begin with the classical misconception by addressing the fundamental assumptions of Newtonian physics. In a very general sense, it was thought that science could be used to lift the veil of man’s ignorance to reveal the ultimate reality that existed out there. It was assumed that physical objects existed separate from each other. They were also seen as existing separate from space. The classical conception of the relationship between physical reality and space is analogous to the relationship of billiard balls to a pool table. The behavior of physical reality was described as the interactions of the billiard balls. The table itself was seen as completely separate from what occurred on it. In this way, classical physics viewed space as nothing more than an arena where the interactions of physical objects took place.

With the advent of Einstein’s theory of relativity, new relationships were taken into account. Specifically, it was observed that physical reality was inseparable from the spatial structure. In relativistic physics, material reality was still described as separately existent objects interacting like billiard balls. However, the connection was made between the structure of the billiard balls and the structure of the pool table on which the game was played. Ultimately, time and space, which were previously considered independent of each other, were now seen to be relative or related to each other through the underlying spatial structure of space-time.

It wasn’t long after Einstein’s insight into the interconnectedness of space and time that a new science began to emerge which we call quantum physics. This strange new science, which physicists encountered as they peered deeper and deeper in the structure of the atom, revealed a reality that was everything but consistent with common sense. By this I mean that the predictions the theory makes about the nature of reality do not correspond to our usual sensory perception of physical reality. However, quantum theory is the most accurate method physicists have for predicting the behavior of physical reality.

One startling feature of the quantum model is that electrons, as well as other subatomic particles, are not really objects at all. In addition, an electron can manifest as either a wave or a particle. An electron can be fired at a screen to reveal a tiny point of light, thus clearly revealing the particle-like side of its nature. However, the electron can also behave as a blurry cloud of energy. If fired at a barrier, in which two slits have been cut, the electron can go through both slits simultaneously. 1

A popular interpretation of the evidence suggests that the electron manifests as a particle only when it is being observed. For example, when an electron isn’t being looked at, experimental findings suggest that it is always a wave. In another slightly different interpretation, it is the method of observation that determines which aspect of the electrons nature will manifest. Conceptually, we could say that what we experience as physical reality does not exist in a defined or definite state prior to the act of observation. Similarly, it is the act of observation itself which somehow defines the state of physical reality. This line of thought represents a radical break from classical physics in that there is no longer any reality out there which we are struggling to uncover. For indeed, any interaction we make somehow effects that which we are trying to observe.

Quantum theory also predicts another fascinating phenomena which is known as non-locality. It is quite obvious to our sensory perception of physical reality that things have specific locations. However, David Bohm, a protégé of Einstein and one of the world’s most respected quantum physicists, held the view that at the quantum level, location ceased to exist. In other words, all points in space became equal to all other points in space, and it was meaningless to speak of anything as being separate from anything else. A non-local interaction links up one location with another without crossing space, without decay, and without delay. Simply put, a non-local interaction is unmediated, unmitigated, and immediate. 2

Bohm’s conception of non-locality enabled him to give an explanation for what is known as the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox, or EPR paradox. In short, the paradox describes the problem of how two twin particles can seemingly communicate instantaneously which each other. The problem is that, according to Einstein’s theory of relativity, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, let alone instantaneously. Bohm’s interpretation of the EPR paradox is that the twin particles are not separate, but non-locally connected. 3

In 1964, a theoretical physicist named John Stewart Bell devised a simple and elegant mathematical proof which demonstrated how non-locality could be experimentally verified. This proof is known as Bell’s theorem. The only problem was that the testing of his theorem required a level of technological precision that was not yet available. 4 It wasn’t until 1982 that physicists Alain Aspect, Jean Dalibard and Gerard Roger of the Institute of Optics at the University of Paris succeeded in verifying the twin particle test that had been outlined by Bell.

In what is now known as the Aspect experiments, the non-local effect was demonstrated by producing a series of twin particles, allowing them to travel in opposite directions, and then measuring certain characteristics of the particles. Quantum particles, when observed, display what is known as a spin state. In general, this characteristic comes in complementary pairs, such as an up or down spin state. In order to understand the type of experiments performed by Aspect and his team, let’s consider the following simple variation. Imagine two particles which together have a zero net spin state. That is they each have opposite spin states relative the other, thus cancelling when they are combined. However, according to quantum theory, the precise state of each particle’s spin charactistic is undefined until it is observed. Since the two particles must have opposite spin states, determining the spin state of one of the particles through observation determines the spin state of the other particle. 5

In quantum theory, the spin states do not just exist to be revealed by observation. The spin states are in some way the product of observation. So, the observation and determination of one spin state then gives the other particle a spin state. Prior to the initial observation, each particle has only a potential spin state, which when determined, has to be the opposite of the other. In the experiments led by Aspect, the particles fly away from eachother at the speed of light and are allowed to travel a relatively great distance. Then, a primary measurement is made to determine the spin of one of the particles. After this measurement has been made, the spin state of the second particle is measured and is always observed to be in the opposite spin state relative to the first. For a more rigorous explaination of the actual way this experiment would be conducted, please refer to the text of Quantum Dynamics of Morphing Psy ~ Trance ~ Formations.

The amazing thing is that the observation of one particle instantaneously determines the spin state of the other particle regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn’t matter if they’re ten feet apart or ten billion miles apart. The question could be stated, how is information transferred between two apparently separate particles faster than the speed of light? A number of theories have arisen which attempt to account for hidden variables that somehow facilitate the unseen cause and effect relationship whereby one particle affects the other. However, these theories avoid the most obvious conclusion, which is that the apparent separateness of the particles is itself an illusion. The separateness is not ultimately real. Non-locality is simply a manifestation of the ultimate unity underlying what we experience as separate physical objects.

Holographic Mental Interference

As we shall see, these ideas are very consistent with concepts which describe the universe in terms of holographic principles. Before we proceed further into our exploration of unity, it is necessary to understand some of the basic ideas of holograms. A hologram is produced when a single laser beam is split into two separate beams. The first beam is bounced off the object whose image is to be recorded. The second beam is reflected off a mirror and allowed to collide with the reflected light of the first. When this happens, the two parts of the beam create an interference pattern that is recorded on a piece of film called a holographic plate. 6

It is this phenomena of interference which makes holography possible. Interference is simply a pattern that is created when waves move through each other. Consider what happens when if you drop two pebbles in a pond. Each pebble will produce a set of waves that form concentric circles which radiate outward from the point of impact. As the waves from each pebble expand, they will at some point collide, and the pattern that results is known as the interference pattern.




The pattern that is recorded on the holographic plate looks absolutely nothing like the object which was used to make the recording. Basically, it looks like a bunch of chaotic swirl’s and concentric rings. However, once another laser beam is used to illuminate the film, a three-dimensional image of the original object reappears. You can walk around the image and view it from different angles, but if you attempt to grab it, you’ll find that there is really nothing there.

The most striking property of holograms is that the whole image is contained in each part of the film. If you take the original film, on which the interference pattern is recorded, and cut it in half, you will find that the entire image can be projected by illuminating only half of the whole. In fact, you can cut the holographic plate into as many pieces as you want and you’ll find that each piece, when illuminated, produces smaller versions of the whole image. 7

At this point, we can easily begin to draw some very interesting connections between the concepts we’ve addressed. In the holographic model, we say that the information of the whole is contained in each part. This is the same thing as saying that the information is distributed non-locally. We have also found that, at the quantum level, all particles are also waves. Thus, all of physical reality is essentially nothing but interference patterns.

It might be a good idea for us to contemplate the meaning of this last statement for a moment. Imagine an endless web of energy patterns. Science has discovered that, at the quantum level, these waves of energy are connected non-locally. This means that every portion of the pattern is infinitely interconnected with every other portion. It is essential to remember that we are not objective observers to this field of crisscrossing frequency patterns. We are it.

David Bohm suggests the possibility that this underlying unity of existence produces the physical world in the same way as a holographic plate produces a hologram. Could it be that our experiential perception of separateness is nothing more than a holographic illusion? Bohm describes the deeper level of reality as the “implicate�, or enfolded, order. He refers to the level of reality of our everyday experience, as the “explicate�, or unfolded, order. 8 This is not to say that our physical existence is unreal. However, it is helpful to understand it simply as a secondary reality.

Let us consider what we are really observing when we perceive a physical object. Consider the paper you are reading and words on the page. What you see out there is not what exists directly where it seems to be. You are perceiving a holographic blur of frequency patterns that are translated into a pattern of neural stimulation, which in turn is experienced as the object out there. In fact, the process of determining that the object exists out there occurs only in your mind’s interpretation of the neural stimulation. When you look up at the stars, you are seeing light that left the stars millions and perhaps billions of years ago. Again, we are not seeing what is there directly; we are seeing a pattern of neural stimulation created by our interpretation of the light. “The same holds true for all the physical senses.

What you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell are all ultimately patterns of neuronal stimulation that in some way correlates with what is out there, but still are not really that.� 9 The frequencies that are translated into neural stimulation are, in and of themselves, colorless, textureless, and tasteless. The qualities we experience through sensory perception are created by the mind and represent an “explicate� order or secondary reality.

Our material reality is but a filtered version of the ultimate unity which connects everything. This filtered version creates separateness because it only perceives bits and pieces of the whole at a time. If we could remove the filter, we would experience reality directly as an interference pattern where all information is distributed non-locally. Again, let’s not forget that we are this pattern. Your hands, this paper, the trees outside the window, our solar system, the entire universe; it’s all a seamless, unbroken extension of everything else. It is one thing. If this is true, then there can be no objective reality because the observer, the process of observing, and the observed become one thing.

Morphogenesis & Dynamic Relativity

Let us contemplate and consider how the uncut fundamental wholeness of all reality became the differentiated reality of our experience. Firstly, we’ll begin by introducing the concept of absolute existence. Absolute existence is the uncut whole from which the pieces of reality emerge. Conceptually, absolute existence is undefined and unbordered existence. As we will see, absolute existence is equivalent to existent nothingness. Nothing does not mean non-existence. It simply means that what does exist is not definable as this or that, and therefore, no-thing. Absolute existence has no structure, and thus, contains no boundaries that could be used to define here in relation to there. “Physical reality is the reality of objects, the reality of things.

We hear things, we see things, we feel things, we tast things, we smell things. Throughout life we have assumed that all those things exist as defined things independent of our experience of them as those things.� 10 However, as noted in our discussion of quantum theory, science has found that this may not be the case. The defined thing-ness of those things we experience cannot exist except in relation to our experience of them.

In fact, any thing that can be experienced only exists in relation to something else. We may experience up and think that up is independently up; however, up can only be up in relation to down. Likewise, we experience hot and think that hot is independently hot, not aware that hot can only be hot in relation to cold. “The same is true for everything that we experience, in that whatever we experience something to be, it can only be that in relation to some other aspect of existence that is not-that.� 11 This form of existence can be termed relational existence: existence that is what it is in relationship to some other aspect of existence.



While absolute existence is structureless, relational existence has structure. In order to get from the uncut boundless non-structure of absolute existence to the structure of relational existence, the system must undergo some transformation or process. In order for the one thing to become two things, the one thing must polarize itself. It is this process of dualization whereby absolute existence forms a relationship with itself. Thus, some relational existence is defined in terms of some other relational existence. “Once relative realities exist, there exists a level of structure within existence. The existence of this relational structure allows existence to form other relationships with itself.� 12 In other words, absolute existence does not dualize just once, but does so over and over again, repeatedly and progressively. What this means is that the relational realities produced by each level of dualization themselves undergo the process of dualization, resulting in the creation of two new relational realities within each preceding level of relational existence. This process of repeated and progressive dualization creates an interconnected structure of relational realities which we can call a relational matrix.


Regardless of how many times existence dualizes, the underlying reality will always be that of unity and interconnectedness. Although we experience reality as seemingly separate pieces, the fundamental reality form which that perception arises is that of oneness, whereby nothing is separable from anything else. Each part of the structure, each reality cell, contains some of the existence of all the other reality cells. Thus, each part of the structure is a reflection of the whole.

Since any localized area of existence has the quality of a-where-ness, then a non-localized area of existence, which would be everywhere, would not have a-where-ness, but would have the quality of every-where-ness or no-where-ness. This unbordered every-where-ness is consciousness. Consciousness exists everywhere, and thus no-where. Absolute existence, as we’ve defined it, can be considered as existent nothingness, because it exists without the borders which define a thing. It is no-thing and no-where, because it is everywhere. Absolute existence is consciousness.

Any attempt to transcend the duality of existence inherent to our experience can seem hopeless until one realizes that they are an inseparable part of whatever it is that exists. Therefore, we have access to whatever it is that exists directly because of the inescapable fact that we are that. 13 At the deeper “implicate� level of reality, you are infinitely connected to everything else that is. You are connected to every other person, organism, and atom in the universe; thus, you are all these things. Similarly, your thoughts are infinitely connected to all thoughts. Being that the image of the whole is contained within each part, the whole universe is within you. The information of the whole is distributed non-locally, and therefore you have access to all of it. Your mind is the Universal Mind.

All relative realities are created by consciousness existing in relation to itself. “We are that consciousness. We are that consciousness existing in relation to itself and interacting with itself.� There is nothing else. None of the things we perceive as separate have an independent existence, as all are in actuality relational extensions of the underlying unity of consciousness. “Physical reality is a product of consciousness. Consciousness is not a product of physical reality. Physical reality does not interact with itself in some unknown fashion to cause consciousness to come into existence. Consciousness in the process of repeated and progressive self-relation becomes the awareness of experience, and thus creates physical reality.� 14

We have seen that we cannot directly experience the true texture of quantum reality because everything we look at crystallizes into matter. For the same reason, we can never experience consciousness as consciousness. When the unbordered, structureless-ness of consciousness attempts to look at itself, it creates a relational structure or frame of reference, experienced as a relative state of awareness. Consciousness can only experience itself through its creation. This a wonderful thing because here we are, armed with the understanding that nothing is truly separable from anything else, and experiencing ourselves as all that is. Separateness is an illusion. Fundamentally, your true self is not other than the indestructible, unbordered, structruless-ness of consciousness. To put it another way, you are God. The Universe is your body. The understanding of this truth gives rise to the experience of unconditional LOVE for all frequencies because they all exist within you

I used to think that my disability excluded me from so much sequential thought...quantam I understand completely and I don't even need math only my global thought...this my wonderful therapist taught me......so I am not so dumb as I thought I just learn holistically and I thank the unbroken wholeness for this gift for it is the gift of unconditional, infinite love.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

Namasté and total unconditional love and 'prayer' indigo

PS You may notice my 'y' on the keyboard is tired and works when it feels like it lol.
I AM THANKFUL FOR EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU HERE.

sincere love.......................

[wantneeda]

Thanks for your words here everyone...I sooo believe in the power of prayer, to this day i believe it brought me to recovery, not so much my own because i was too busy in active addiction to practice prayer but my family and one of my sisters went to a convention in Calgary and 100's of people supposedly prayed for my return to reality, a week later i came home after being gone for 3 years. Prayer? Coincidence? I'll never know.
Dan , i do pray in the sense of Thanking my HP in advance for that which i seek. It keeps me positive and serene. Like my Mom for example, who is quite sick right now and going through some possible cancer stuff. I was telling her this exact thing, to thank Him/it/her for her healing.
I try to contrate on the solution not the problem. I picture in my minds eye, or hearts eye,( i have to think about that one now...) that which i pray for. Myself as sober, clean, happy and serene, not relapsing and dying from my disease.
Thought=feeling=action, if i think good, positive thoughts i feel and act positive. The reverse is true. As time goes on i'm getting better at staying in a positive light and recognizing when i am thinking negative and in turn i bring myself back to that positive light.
I too picture my unhealed spirit rising up from toes with every breath exhaled and a pink loving light permeating my spirit from above when inhaling, this practice has helped along my 326 days in sobriety!!
I too see in my minds eye those situations and people with whom i have conflict, unresoved resentments as being whole, healed and serene. Wrapped in a pink blanket of love and light.
I so believe that if i dwell on what i don't want it will materialize.
I wrap SR from A-Z in this blanket.
\\//peace and love, Wendy

[Dan]

Here's a thought...

Prayer without any belief in the possibility of intercessionary intervention...
Is it still prayer, in the conventional sense?