Buddhism and Recovery--Being the Path

[MycoolFitz]

Greetings all. Is anyone interested in participating in, and keeping a thread going, on the practice of Buddhism as it relates to recovery with or without the 12-steps? I have been a Buddhist for 40 years (mostly non-denominational with a leaning toward Soto Zen, which like the 12-steps is simple but not easy), clean for 23 years and sober for 5 months, a little disparity. Topics could include experiences with Buddhism and Recovery, practices and progress or problems, questions and answers, resources and recommendations and so on. Buddhist sponsors tend to be hard to find and this would provide a nice peer led supprt in our recovery endeavors. If so here this is, sobriety to all, may you find it now. Namaste

[Boleo]

Maya - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.

[NewBeginning010]

I am interested ;-) I have been reading about Buddhism, putting things into daily practice is sometimes challenging.

Glad you are doing well MCF

Take Care,

NB

[Boleo]

12. Having had a spiritual awakening (an Awakened-One) as the result of these steps (Karma), we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles (Dharma) in all our affairs.

[Live]

I am neither alcoholic or 12 step however I am interested.

I fell into a mindfulness practice yesterday...I say fell because there was no prior thought nor intention of this, but as I became involved in a practice of love, it naturally developed or evolved, (as you will) into a mindful excercise of love....was good for me and felt very good. I need this practice! LOL

[MycoolFitz]

Well one certainly needed to be alcoholic addict though craving implies dissatisfaction in all of us. Noah Levine in Dharma Punx states: "Though we speak of, for example, drug addicts, what we are really addicted to isn’t substances—drugs or sex or food or alcohol—but our own minds. We are addicted to that part of the mind that craves, that says we must satisfy this desire or that. Even in twelve-step recovery programs it is said that the drugs and alcohol are only a symptom of an internal imbalance. That’s why I said earlier that our relationship to craving is the problem, not some substance itself."

__________________________________________________ _____________________
Ven. Robina Courtin says that We're all mentally ill. We're all delusional. We're all junkies.It's just a matter of degree.

I don't think this is negativity as some claim Buddhism is, its just saying we're all human and this is part of our life. The Buddha is likened to a physician who diagnoses and prescribes for the human condition presented to him, and like with our doctor's we go to them when we're feeling ill or in pain, not when we're on top of the world. So itrs not saying that life is just suffering or unsatisfactory, these are just the presenting symptoms for which we seek relief.

Addionally, The Buddha was not interested in theology or cosmology. He didn’t speak on these subjects and in fact would not answer questions on them. His primary concerns were psychological, moral, and highly practical ones:

• How can we see the world as it comes to be in each moment rather than as we think, hope, or fear it is?

• How can we base our actions on Reality rather than on the longing and loathing of our hearts and minds?

• How can we live lives that are wise, compassionate, and in tune with Reality?

• What is the experience of being awake?

These are conditions which condition our sufferings from which we seek relief. Its all very practical and very simple but not easy. To all this flows the underpinning of the love and concern embodied in the Boddichitta. Like Boleo wrote: "Having had a spiritual awakening (an Awakened-One) as the result of these steps (Karma), we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles (Dharma) in all our affairs."
The awakened vow to bring awakening to all beings, not just themselves.

[Live]

Forgive me for dumbing things down a bit
Yes, I am addicted to substances, my nicotine addiction is deadly.
Earlier I wasn't sure if you wanted a specific gathering type.
I understand the concept of being overly dependent and reliant on unnecessary things and the grasping that comes with that.
I understand that freedom comes about as we release our reliance on these things (whether they be material, habits of thought, emotional habits ad nauseum).
It is very difficult for me, a person raised in Western thought and being a very fallible human being, to begin to understand the practice of Eastern wisdoms I have learned.
My mind may understand and agree with the concept, but putting it to practice is quite confusing to me.
I have the greatest respect for His Holiness the Dalai Lama. He teaches us not to abandon whatever our theology or religious upbringing has been, he seeks no converts and teaches that all are paths along the same journey. He seems to be spending and exerting his greatest efforts on teaching compassion and shoring up ethical systems and behaviors. He is hopeful and optimistic.
I wish to learn more about the practice of ethical compassion, as well as whatever is offered in this dialogue.

[Live]

PS I am currently reading, SLOWLY, Robert Thurman's book "Infinite Life".
As this is the first time I have read this book, I am taking it in small bits slowly.
I think that I shall begin re-reading "Destructive Emotions" by Daniel Goleman for further reinforcement of those teachings.

If any of you have not heard of this: MindandLife.org it is the consortium wherein the 14the Dalai Lama meets with Western scientists to explore scientific research in conjunction with Eastern wisdoms which I find utterly intriguing and valuable.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by MycoolFitz

Ven. Robina Courtin says that We're all mentally ill. We're all delusional...

I have come to appreciate how big a role that "Delusional Thinking" plays in addiction of any kind.

What treats this ailment is what awakens us to the TRUTH. It can be the 12 steps of recovery, the Dharma of Buddhism, the sanctity of Christianity or the Pu of Taoism.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

[MycoolFitz]

Really didn't have a specific gathering type in mind. Just a chance to get together and share our beliefs, practices, recovery, life. I can really relate to understand in the sense of being the complexity of the simplisticity of the teachings. I struggle not to crave not craving then realize struggling is an issue itself. Even simply letting the breath be without subtley controlling it as I am aware of it can be difficult for me. I too am interested in and have followed the Mind Life Institutes. Strangely my two favorite passions are Buddhism and Quantum Mechanics. An excellent book is the Dali Lama's "The Universe in a Single Atom". I also agree that delusional thinking is critical to the survival of addiction. Steve Hagen in "Buddhism Plain and Simple" states that Because we’re so caught up in our intellectualizing, our emotions, and our mental constructions, the objects of our concern seems compellingly real for us—and gripping. Furthermore, virtually everyone around us is caught in the same way. Thus we create shared delusions."
Gerald G. May, M.D., in Addiction and Grace, defines addiction as "any compulsive, habitual behavior that limits the freedom of human desire. It is caused by attachments, or nailing, of desires to specific objects. Five essential characteristics mark true addiction: (1) tolerance, (2) withdrawal symptoms, (3) self-deception, (4) loss of will power, and (5) distortion of attention." May indicates that "Self-Deception" is One of the most significant hallmarks of addiction is the exquisite inventiveness that the mind can demonstrate in order to perpetuate addictive behaviors. These tricks of mind include denial, rationalization, displacement, and every other defense mechanism that psychoanalysis has identified, and then some.

I think that denial and delusion are survival mechanisms that can end up killing us.
Namaste

[Live]

I am still trying to realize the practice of ethical compassion.
There is someone whom I care about who has many delusions and has asked me to understand them but not challenge them. This person suffers greatly. I have been asked to "dance around" and not speak of sensitive areas, however I see that these areas are the cause of much of this person's suffering. I feel rather insane when attempting to relate to this person within the parameters they require. Compassion asks that I have compassion for my self and not participate in this crazy-making relating and interaction.
Compassion also asks that I love this person as they are and have empathy and care with their suffering. How might I reconcile this? What is truly the ethical approach with this dilemna?
I am working to realize the concepts in my daily life.
Sunday was a special day as serene mindfulness came easily and naturally in everything from cleaning the toilet to excercising giving love to another. However, I do set aside a day a week to focus and this week it was Sunday.
I know it should be an every day thing, all of life should be like that, but I have not evolved into that yet. Most days I set aside time 3 times a day to center myself and focus and settle myself, to clear my mind, to listen. While I love intellectual concepts, I need to bring them down to earth, so to speak, into daily living and practice.
I will share some of the things from my readings later.
Peace.

[Live]

Wisdom is the first virtue, the other five transcendent virtues:

"Generosity keeps you open through deeds, making you aware of other's needs. It seals your insight into selflessness by allowing you to let go of all possessions-including your body, your mind, and even your good deeds-in order to find true contentment in helping other beings."

Robert Thurman in "Infinite Life"

[Live]

"Your infinite life thus becomes a moment-to-moment performance of all the transcendent virtues, all grounded in the greatest of these, transcendent wisdom. Your wisdom deepens constantly throughout, with seeing eroding absolutism, and freedom eroding nihilism. You perform your infinite living engaged with others through generosity, sensitive and empathetic justice, and invincible tolerance, forbearance, and forgiveness. You perforn in engagement with yourself in intensifying your serenity, your contemplative concentration, your one-pointed control of your mental focus, which intensifies your wisdom transcendence, gradualy erases the division between meditation and action, and fills you and your expanding field of infinite living with joy and bliss. Your creativity energizes both your altruistic and your self-eveloving performances, and your become an inexhaustible node of the infinite life-force, feeling more and more saturated with the sense of indivisible union with all enlightened beings. There is evolution without anxiety or stress, energy without restlessness, relentless progress without greed or feelings of deprivation.

Once you see the truth of your self-addiction and gain some measure of release from it, then you can begin to have a positive influence on other beings and effect change in your society. There is no need for you to formally promote certain doctrines: your very presence becomes a teaching example to others, a liberating art that opens their imaginations to the potential freedome they aso can experience."

ibid

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by MycoolFitz

Five essential characteristics mark true addiction: (1) tolerance, (2) withdrawal symptoms, (3) self-deception, (4) loss of will power, and (5) distortion of attention. May indicates that "Self-Deception" is One of the most significant hallmarks of addiction...

Bad faith (self-deception) is a philosophical concept first coined by existentialist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre to describe the phenomenon wherein one denies one's total freedom, instead choosing to behave as an inert object. It is closely related to the concepts of self-deception and ressentiment.

[AstroGirl]

Me!Me!Me! I want to be part of this conversation. I'm still working out some stuff that comes up for me because I was such a diligent vipassana meditator and yoga practitioner/instructor. Clocked lots of hours with my butt on the cushion and thought I had an inkling about living life on a spiritual basis - until my partner left and I drank a little wine, then a little more, then the whole sad mess that we all go through. What I didn't have an inkling about was alcoholism. So count me in on this thread!!!

[AstroGirl]

"Meditation is an evolutionary sport." ---Robert Thurman

[AstroGirl]

We're not drunk with out drinking, we're drunk with out thinking!" ---Byron Katie

Just taking this opportunity to reveal my interest in taking the addiction thing out of the realm of "pathology" and include it as a part of the human condition and path.

Live - I've got all the books from the "Mind and Life series" going back for quite a while, I even watched and downloaded the whole thing last April. Also got to do a meditation retreat for scientists with Richie Davidson and some of the folks from his lab who have been doing all the neurological studies of the effects of meditation. Whoop! This is my favorite subject. Pardon me if I get over-enthusiastic!

[Live]

oh YAY!!!! Welcome!
Well, I am jealous that you have all the books and etc! LOL
I roamed around the web last night and found Thurman's site.
I am wonderfully glad to meet other enthusiasts!
I have so much to learn!

More Thurman:
"JUSTICE encourages you to make your relationships with others as fruitfully harmonious as they can be. Its positive resonance with others reinforces within you a personal ethical system that leads you away from conflict and anxiety and toward peace and happiness."

I am still trying to figure out how to put this into practical application in the relationship I referred to above. ???????????

[MycoolFitz]

This is all so cool. I spent so many years thinking I was meditating when actually I was medicating. Without the drugs and booze it is so different, I don't know how to describe it. However, it was meeting Ram Dass and acid that got me hooked on the Buddha trip, so very interconnected. But like Ram Dass said about the drug aspect, once you receive the message it's time to hang up the phone. A great mix of gene pool on the thread, glad I'm not the only one with the scientific/Buddhist interest although as I go deeper into Soto Zen I'm tending to shed a lot of layers of intellectual skin.

In terms of my personal recovery, mindfulness is definately the key. When a drinking thought arises, or a missing something thought, I acknowledge it, look at it, accept it for what it is (a thought) and go on. Its funny but for the first time in 45 years of drugging and drinking, I'm really not having any cravings or desires to pick up. It feels so easy and natural that I need to stay mindful and not wander into the delusion that drugs and alcohol or no longer an issue for me. I quit drugs 23 years ago and I wouldn't risk so much as a toke now. I'm only 135 daze sober and I won't even use cooking sherry in my recipes. My computer is going wacko, thought it was a flashback so I'll
sign off for now. Namaste

[Boleo]

Since we have so many Meditator's gathered together in one place, I would like to know if anyone here can define and distinguish the following;

ZaZen
Wu-nien
Mushin
Pu of Tao

[MycoolFitz]

I can translate some of them I don't know that I will ever be able to define or understand them. Zazen, as you know most commonly refers to sitting meditation, whole-hearted sitting, opening the hand of heart. It could be said if you're "doing" zazen you're not truely doing it, its beyond thought. Mushin I've heard of as delusive mind, no heart, no minds, mind. I have your word for Pu of Tao which I wasn't familiar with Pu is translated "uncarved block", "unhewn log", or "simplicity". It is a metaphor for the state of wu wei and the principle of jian. It represents a passive state of receptiveness. Pu is a symbol for a state of pure potential and perception without prejudice. In this state, Taoists believe everything is seen as it is, without preconceptions or illusion.

Pu is seen as keeping oneself in the primordial state of Tao. It is believed to be the true nature of the mind, unburdened by knowledge or experiences. In the state of Pu, there is no right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. There is only pure experience, or awareness, free from learned labels and definitions. It is this state of being that is the goal of following Tao.
Wu nien I don't know. I do know the meanings are not in the words but in the being. The longer i practice the way the less I know, like Benjamin Buttonsan.

[AstroGirl]

Thanks, live for the invite. I'm preparing for a friend of mine from India to arrive tomorrow night, and I'll be really busy for the next couple of weeks - he's 23 or 4 generations of astrologer in his family and he sees his clients here in my home. So it's great for me - busy with stuff I love, no question of alcohol or drugs, time for meditation in the morning . . . just lots of phone calls and keeping up with stuff. After that, I'd love to PM w/ you for a while and get to know you. I'm afraid I'm going to be the simpleton on the board. I've practiced Theravada Buddhism since '87, which pretty much explains all of life as craving (desire), aversion (avoiding), or neutral. The secret (ha ha) is to observe them all with equanimity. But in my experience - the more personal the situation or relationship, the less available the equanimity. I guess that's why my screensaver says "Practice thirty more years."
But great to know your out there adding your mindful vibration to those of all of those of us through the ages who have turned our attention to these things and taken action to bring them into being. Thanks. It really makes a difference.

[Live]

Boleo, nope...I don't know any of them. I would like to enhance my rudimentary Spanish but that is it as far as learning other languages!

I have had no formal instruction and frankly don't even consider myself a Buddhist...however I have been studying certain teachings by Buddhists for a few years.
I don't know that I can even be considered a meditator, my excercises in that direction are so simple!
Nevertheless, I have found my studies to be very valuable and will continue to study and hope I learn to incorporate my learnings into practical, daily application.

One of the things that I so love about the books by the Dalai Lama are that he speaks simply so as not to exclude anyone and deprive them of His wisdom. I do believe that is a compassionate endeavor!

[MycoolFitz]

Good morning all. Wanted to share something. I suffer from PTSD, a funny thing to have when there exists no past to cause anquish. Anyhow I had one of my nightmares last night, the kind that are especially terrifying because they're not masked in symbolism or subconsious trickery. It was just an in your face this happened and I'm not going to let you forget or let go. It's terrible to wake oneself screaming. I didn't have the nightmares all the years I was drugging and drinking and managed to pass out. They started up again when I became sober. As I lay there in my sweat with my heart racing away I calmed my breath and just let it all be without fighting or fearing. I thought what a gift to mhave this terror come upon me, how else am I to get the poison out. Like wearing a bandage over a wound that needed to be exposed to light and air for healing I spent 40 years keeping them covered as they festered inside. Even my many years of meditating along with medicating were in a way my attempt to keep my nightmares in check. I was reminded of something I read awhile back and kept reading every now and then.

If we do not uncover [our] problems--and I saw this in myself--we risk placing a veneer of spirituality over deeply buried emotional wounds from childhood that do not simply go away.-- Rigdzin Shikpo

Opening the cage, letting my nightmares out, facing the truth of a past that only truely exists illusionary is a gift of my recovery. Some of the greatest gifts come in painfilled wrappings. Namaste

[Tosh]

Hi MCF,

I can't add anything interesting to this post, but I'd like to thank you for a good read, even if I understood very little of it.

However I've started a six week 'course' called The Meaning of Life and it's ran by a British Budhist guy. I thought it was a medititation course (to help me with Step 11), but there was more to it than just that.

So far everything the budhist guy has said has made perfect sense; next week we will be meditating on 'death' which when he explained why sounded great!!!

I think it'll be a while before I start wearing orange dresses and shaving my head, but something about budhism clicks with me, and don't they say when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Regards