lost faith

[utopia]

hi, ive recently lost faith in my Christian beleiefs in something mroe existential, more broad and less dogmatic and structured. I dont know if i beleive in "god" or if i can even define it anymore?

therse despair in this, something like freedom but also concern over the definitions of morality, right and wrong, of insanity and delusion, of reality and my concepts of love before ideology. thoughts??

[indigo]

JMO you have not lost your sqpirituality though.

[Rusty Zipper]

agreed with indie,

as we all have it,

and have the choice to use it...

[citychick]

Let your heart be your guide utopia, try not to over think it.

[Fluttering]

We often reach a plateu of sorts.. The stillness doesn't always neccessarily mean things are lost.

[one of]

Hi Utopia,

On the fifth page of another thread under "Spirituality," i. e. "Spirituality versus Religion," I pointed out that Truth is the highest of higher powers and always will be. Fourteen years after Bill W. (and friends) wrote the BigBook®, the new big word in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions became "humility." Within that term, and using Truth as your higher power, you can build a program for living which will never let you down. No magical thinking required. And if God is Truth, then of course Truth is also God, and that includes working with the Theories of Evolution, Natural Selection, and Big Bangs. (Science speaks quite well to the reality of the Big Bang beginning our Universe, and further states that time unfolded at the time of the big bang and thus there was no time before the big bang. I'm not sure whether that has a mathematical proof to it or not, but I feel pretty certain that they cannot say, in truth, whether or not this was the first Big Bang ever or perhaps the Forty-Thousandth Big Bang.)

At any rate, the unknown is most assuredly not a void, and daily new information is being drawn from it. Whether or not a new, "non-material" will someday be discovered which covers the actual undying existence of thoughts, we will leave to science.

The very beautiful key to the working of the 12 steps (using Truth as God works just fine) is that the result turns out as the literature states it will. The first sentence of step 5 tells us why. "All of A.A.'s Twelve Steps ask us to go contrary to our natural desires . . . they all deflate our egos.) As the ego deflates, humility grows. And thus, down the road a ways, these guys, as early in their sobriety as the BigBook® was written, could write, "We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self seeking will slip away." In other words, egoism with its nil capacity to love is being replaced by humility with its infinite capacity to love, so long as we continue to stay surrendered to our twelve step program. This, Utopia, has nothing to do with any need to believe what one cannot believe. This is Truth. Ask the people who have stayed close to the steps for years and they will say the same thing (in a variety of different ways, of course). There is a quote in the back of the BigBook® which says something along the lines of; 'the only freedom you can ever know is doing what you ought to do because you want to do it.' That is the place one finds oneself when humility replaces egoism. More truth! More well tested truth!

On page 222 of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, we learn that Dr. Bob kept a plaque on his desk defining humility:

"Humility is perpetual quietness of heart. It is to have no trouble. It is never to be fretted or vexed, irritable or sore; to wonder at nothing that is done to me, to feel nothing done against me. It is to be at rest when nobody praises me, and when I am blamed or despised, it is to have a blessed home in myself where I can go in and shut the door and kneel to my Father in secret and be at peace, as in a deep sea of calmness, when all about is seeming trouble." [Andrew Murray] (1828-1917) If the term "my Father" causes problems, replace it in your mind with, "The Blessed Truth."

In searching for where in his writings Andrew wrote that definition, albeit never finding it, I found this:

"This, my friend, is a secret of secrets; it will help you to reap where you have not sown, and be a continual source of grace in your soul; for everything that inwardly stirs in you, or outwardly happens to you, becomes a real good to you, if it finds or excites in you this humble state of mind. For nothing is in vain, or without profit to the humble soul; it stands always in a state of divine growth; everything that falls upon it is like a dew of heaven to it. Shut up yourself, therefore, in this form of Humility; all good is enclosed in it; it is a water of heaven, that turns the fire of the fallen soul into the meekness of the divine life, and creates that oil, out of which the love to God and man gets its flame. Be enclosed, therefore,always in it; let it be as a garment wherewith you are always covered, and a girdle with which you are girt; breathe nothing but in and from its spirit; see nothing but with its eyes; hear nothing but with its ears. And then, whether you are in the church or out of the church, hearing the praises of God or receiving wrongs from men and the world, all will be edification, and everything will help forward your growth in the life of God." (The Spirit of Prayer, PtII, p. 121)

Is it any wonder that Bill W. could feel confident he was writing a tested truth when he wrote in the second paragraph of step 7 (12&12):

". . . the attainment of greater humility is the foundation principle of each of A.A.'s Twelve Steps. For without some degree of humility, no alcoholic can stay sober at all. Nearly all A.A.'s have found, too, that unless they develop much more of this precious quality than may be required just for sobriety, they still haven't much chance of becoming truly happy. Without it, they cannot live to much useful purpose, or, in adversity, be able to summon the faith that can meet any emergency."

Finally, Utopia, comes a truth from step 10 that should boggle anyone's mind who reads it. The wonderment doesn't come from the truth of the statement itself, it comes from the ability to call the statement, "a spiritual axiom." I've never heard that term used elsewhere, and truly wonder how he could have the self assurance in the truth of the statement to be able to state it that way. the statement?

"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." (Step 10, 12&12 page 3)

Now does that give us a form of communication that's perfect, or what? If, every time I lose my serenity of spirit, peace of mind, and daily sense of being at home in the universe I am being asked to pick of on one of the many cliches of our program in order to return myself to that state, rather than blame people, places, or things for my loss, this means that there is a meaning to my life that is using the internalizine of humbling truths (cliches are cliches because of the truth they contain that causes them to become cliches ) to maintain my state of pink cloudiness while at the same time allowing me to be moved by the humbling aspect of the truths from egoism towards humility. I personally, Utopia, can confirm that the truth of that spiritual axiom has been satisfactorily tested over a 34 year period . . . since it has been a mainstay of my own 34 years of sobriety.

If I continue to stay surrendered to the 12 step program, Utopia, the day comes when I can make friends with my death because the program has allowed me to see through all the B.S. promises that life continually holds out to us that someday we will win the game of life and then live in a state of elation forever. Seeing through that silliness, seeing the truth that there is no ultimate AAaahh in this business of living a lifetime, then death loses its scariness. Correspondingly, as I grow from egoism towards humility, and more and more of my enjoyment in being alive is coming from helping others feel better about being alive, I also lose my concern with whether or not my awareness of being survives the death of the body. It seems that it may. It also seems, living in the science of the 21st century, that it may not. But either way, the humble man is unaffected. If awareness of being ends with death of the body, then I will never know I died and the serving others ends. If it goes beyong death then the serving of others continues with the same degree of good feeling it had in life of the body. No big deal either way, is there?

I sincerely hope meditating on all this might help you stay sober and straight and realize that by so doing, you are maintaining a contact with the humbling truths which will move you from egoism, with its nil capacity to love, always closer to humility, with its infinite capacity to love. Blessings - one of

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by utopia

hi, ive recently lost faith in my Christian beleiefs in something mroe existential, more broad and less dogmatic and structured. I dont know if i beleive in "god" or if i can even define it anymore?

therse despair in this, something like freedom but also concern over the definitions of morality, right and wrong, of insanity and delusion, of reality and my concepts of love before ideology. thoughts??

I think I know where your coming from. I too lost faith in Christianity. I was searching for something to replace it for many years. Then I found out I don't have to search for something that was never there for me in the first place. I was greatly relived as well as calmed that the search was over. I don't have search beyond myself to find the divine. I have had it all along...the thing is I was smothering it with addiction. Now free from addiction I'm also free to release the the divine within my deepest self.

[MycoolFitz]

Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.—Buddha
Namaste

[spittake]

Tons of thoughts, but I'll try to condense them.

I went through a similar experience. I was a devout born-again Christian, and ultimately rejected my faith as I came to view the world from a place that might be considered an existential nihilism.

I experienced a huge amount of rage, despondency, disillusionment, etc. It is very difficult to come to accept that you based your life on a lie. Depending on your level of devoutness, you may have based every single last aspect of your being on your faith. That's what I had done.

My initial response was to stop caring about anything at all and self-destruct, but a lot of that was because, for years, my fear of Hell was the only thing that held me back from committing suicide. I hope this is not the case for you.

Now, I have come to see that though nothing "matters" per se, all that means to me is that I am free to do whatever I choose. And today, I choose to experience the profundities of life while I have the chance, namely love and human bonding. Just as I am free to make myself and everyone around me miserable, I am free to make myself feel damn good and bring joy to people's lives.

One good thing about nihilism - I don't sweat the small stuff.

[spittake]

Originally Posted by MycoolFitz

Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.—Buddha
Namaste

Some nihilists hold that there really is no such thing as knowledge. I sort of agree, in the sense that we are forever discovering just how wrong we were about something.

[totfit]

I don't see where changing religious beliefs should have any correlation with questioning values or morality. I think that we intuitively know right from wrong. Has nothing to do with religion in my opinion. I guess if one delves into specific issues: abortion, etc. then there are questions. I believe here the answer is more philosophical that moral.

[spittake]

Originally Posted by totfit

I don't see where changing religious beliefs should have any correlation with questioning values or morality. I think that we intuitively know right from wrong.

The problem is that a religion like Christianity comes with a strict and extensive code of conduct, which goes far beyond human intuition.

Initially, the apostate may feel completely lost as to what the "rules" of their conduct ought to be, until they come to realize that all rules are ultimately self-imposed. They chose to follow the commands of their religious text. Now they may choose to develop their own philosophic understanding, and the extent to which they will adhere to their own convictions.

It's a strange and disconcerting experience, at first. But it's an important part of maturation.

[utopia]

wow. this is good. thanks so much for the sharings. they speak to me and sooth the feeling of loss. i went to my old church for the last time today and tore down a banner speaking against gay people having adoption rights. i wanted to go back and stand in the glory of tearing down those banners but realise i cant go there to pray because it feels like a sham and not safe and it doesnt feel healthy to gloat over the torn banners ...

[utopia]

esp helped here as the christian forum is going on the "satan is using me, im arrogant and the bible is the word of god" rant which is , for me, kind of off the mark, historically ignorant, unwilling to compromise or discuss or consider how the bible was formed and highly judgmental and only to secure their own beliefs! letting it go. Jesus or the highway. i still get some comfort but its kind of existential.

[spittake]

Originally Posted by utopia

esp helped here as the christian forum is going on the "satan is using me, im arrogant and the bible is the word of god"

This was one of the hardest things about my own experience with Christianity. I was a thoughtful, curious kid, and I was being told that any critical questions I had about what I was taught or what the bible said were thoughts being planted in my mind by Satan himself.

I sympathize with what you are going through, and I sense a desire to maintain some sort of religious connection (correct me if I'm off-base). You also mention tearing down a gay-bashing banner. Is that a personal issue for you? I know my burgeoning same-sex attractions were the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. It's not fair to ask a person to give up their best chance at experiencing joy in their lifetime (falling in love). It's much less fair to do it in the name of God and an eternal afterlife.

[one of]

Hi Spittake and Utopia,

Only a suggestion: read the writings of retired Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong (who grew up in an Evangelical Church). I would especially recommend his book, "The Sins of Scripture" which is a real put-down of Christianity's treatment of both homosexuality and woman's equality.

When I majored in philosophy and religious studies at San Diego State back in the mid 70's (they don't have the religious studies major any more . . . sadly), I took a course entitled "Jesus as a major figure" and it really opened my eyes to the difference between what Jesus was trying to get across to his disciples and the small amount they ultimately gained from his teachings. They were so anxious to turn him into the Messiah they were so sure he was, that his messages and teachings designed to free them from the traditions and guilt of their current religion were all but lost on them and in their writings about him. Spong does an excellent job of pointing all that out.

His writings, IMO, will probably not be able to save Christianity from the same fate as those religions of Greece and Rome which were in existence in Jesus's day, but they may pave the way for something new based on the teachings of Jesus which will give all those church buildings a continued use for the next century. I am, for myself, certain that Jesus was teaching the way to let one be moved from egoism towards humility in his day just as AA's twelve steps is teaching the same thing today. (I now realize this thread is not under the AA umbrella, and I'm not trying to sell AA to anyone who isn't interested in it - because I know there are many other paths which can accomplish the same result - AA is just the one that freed me). If you two have tied into Spong already, then you may already know there is a way to maintain an intelligent tie to the very real possibility that there is ultimate meaning to this business of being human rather than absolutely no meaning to it at all. Hope this helps. Love and Blessings - Chuck

[MCake]

Thank you, CC. The powerful simplicity of your post really gave me some comfort today.

Originally Posted by citychick

Let your heart be your guide utopia, try not to over think it.

[Fluttering]

Utopia, How are you doing?

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by utopia

something more existential, more broad and less dogmatic and structured.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ative-god.html (Alternative to God)

[MycoolFitz]

The Four Reliances

First, rely on the spirit and meaning of the teachings,
not on the words;

Second, rely on the teachings,
not on the personality of the teacher;

Third, rely on real wisdom,
not superficial interpretation;

And fourth, rely on the essence of your pure Wisdom Mind,
not on judgmental perceptions.-- Traditional Buddhist teaching
__________________________________________________ _____________________
Namaste

[353]

Originally Posted by utopia

wow. this is good. thanks so much for the sharings. they speak to me and sooth the feeling of loss. i went to my old church for the last time today and tore down a banner speaking against gay people having adoption rights. i wanted to go back and stand in the glory of tearing down those banners but realise i cant go there to pray because it feels like a sham and not safe and it doesnt feel healthy to gloat over the torn banners ...

I haven't posted on here in quite some time. As a Christian, it's important for me to remember that Jesus was not a Christian. Christianity, the religion, was created by human beings to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. To me, being a Christian means following the teaching of Jesus, that is all!

Would Jesus teach me to speak against gay people...not in my understanding.

Find a new church, or not, whatever you wish. But my faith in Jesus tells me that each and every person on earth is already saved, we just don't understand what it is. When we figure it out we are in what we call "heaven".

Many Christians may call me a blasphemer. What other people believe is not my business. Nothing in this world is between me and them. Everything is between me and God.

Peace

[utopia]

hi im doing ok i think. though at times i feel harrowed by the loss of self ive been doing some deep meditations on existential existence and buddhist thought of all things being dependent on the arising of other things and how i relate to "my" body mind and beingness. i dont think i have anything bigger than myself anymore. i dont have anything comparable. I DONT even know if i can stick to the 12 steps or feel the need to? god buddha jesus light or love. i am love. i am kindness. i am rage. i am hate....i was on this meditation yesterday and felt irritated at having to focus on a thing when i am divinity. im not my body or mind but i am just the beingness that is. im seenig things much less contained and existential its amazing. amazing how people are obssessed with their rightness. in their being right. im blown apart by having a total redefinition of morality and feeling of oneness. it makes me think that being altruistic is not thus not a moral choice but a self serving one. because this sense of oneness from my meditation means suddenly that jerk is me and that nice guy is me, if im nice to them then im being nice to me and the payoff is mine really... that the moons beauty is my beauty and i am the moon too.......im not christian or buddhist or anything im just (.....) no word can measure it and no beleif system can contain it. its not a nihilst approach or atheist but rather hard to explain in words what im feeling at the moment since the disolution of my faith. feel a lot like my own creator right now.

[spittake]

I never felt smaller than when I considered that there isn't a God, that the universe just is, and that time's been stretching on for billions of years.

Your observations on altruism are pretty astute. I know I do good ultimately because I feel good about doing good. But, the means to the end are positive in and of themselves, so I see it as worthwhile all around.

Powerful stuff you're contemplating. Don't stop; that's when life becomes boring.

You'll get through this, and be much wiser and more at peace with the universe than ever before.

[utopia]

Thanks. This forum is soothing to share in and I feel more defensive in the Christian ones but here we are. Thanks for your loving words of support are nourishing for me.

[Ann]

I was raised with religion, and although I respect all choices of doctrines, what I embrace today might be considered "non-denominational" or "multi-denominational" because I find some good in most forms of worship and just leave church doctrine/politics to others who need that as part of their structure.

I believe in a higher power that I call God. This belief encompasses the peace and beauty I find in nature, and the inner peace I find in living in my own truth, love for all people, and living a kind, compassionate, caring life where I try to give back that which has been given to me.

I sometimes attend church, it could be any of a number of churches I have found that give a powerful message of God's love. The God of hellfire and damnation is no longer the God in my heart, but instead the God I have a relationship with today is a loving, forgiving God who loves all His children, including his addicted ones.

I respect the doctrine and practices of any church I visit, and I always contribute to their collection because I am glad they are there and know that it costs money to keep them going. Beyond that, my presence there is for my own relationship with God (and Jesus, who I also believe in). That said, I also find wisdom in non-Christian theologies such as Buddhism, Tao, Judaism, Native American teachings and others who teach peace, love, tolerance and helping our brothers and sisters on this planet.

It's all a personal choice for me and I apologize to nobody for being less than traditional in my practice because my heart and spirit are good.

Hugs