I don't get it - can someone explain?

[ElektrykEye]

I recently began attending Al-Anon and found a group that I really liked. After a few weeks, Group Conscience time came around and I decided I would attend that as well. During this meeting, a group member brought to the table the fact that some people were concerned about using the Lord's Prayer as the closing prayer. To make a long story short, this led to a lively discussion, 2 votes (the final being to use the Serenity Prayer instead), and a rift in the aftermath of the meeting. Now the whole issue has been tabled, the vote reversed, until another meeting can be called.

Here's what I don't get... if this truly is a "spiritual" program rather than a "religious" program then what is the problem with using a spiritually neutral (or at least more neutral) prayer at the end of the meeting rather than using a prayer that is specifically Christian? Read it for yourself... it has explicitly Christian believes within it (ie "God" as "Father" who is in "Heaven") and is used in churches across the country. I understand that it has frequently been used, but it seems to me that a group that truly values spirituality over religion would, at very least, have no problem substituting it for the Serenity Prayer when concerns were brought up.

After all of this drama, I no longer want to attend Al-Anon at all. I happen to not be Christian and while it doesn't kill me to stand silently while the Lord's Prayer is being said, it bothers me deeply that group members' actions show that (in my opinion of course) they are less tolerant than they claim to be.

Can anyone explain this to me? Is this a common occurance at 12-step meetings? Or do non-Christians just stop going rather than rocking the boat? I am extremely disappointed in how the whole thing has turned out.

Oh, and I am posting this here because it is about spirituality and the difference between spirituality and religion as it pertains to Al-Anon.

[Overman]

The prayer at the end of AA meetings has always turned me off, and yes, it often exposes the inherent Christian slant. The 12 steps are largely based on a Protestant model of repentence and conversion.

I just leave early and avoid the prayer, as I don't see it as relevant to my sobriety.

'Take what you need, leave the rest'

[dgillz]

I bring this up at every group conscience meeting I go to. I hate the lords prayer in meetings. The Serenity prayer is more spiritual instead of being Christian, and I am OK with that.

And yes, the Christians in most meetings are less tolerant.

But I will not deprive myself of AA and what I gain from it because of this resentment. I will not let it interfere with my sobriety.

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by ElektrykEye

Oh, and I am posting this here because it is about spirituality and the difference between spirituality and religion as it pertains to Al-Anon.

Part of the problem, might just be me, of course, is that we can forgot that those co-dependent behaviors can manifest in all aspects of our lives, not just in intimate relationships. I've seen it in both AA and Al-anon, and not claiming to be innocent either.

[Sunlight81]

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

[dgillz]

Thanks for the explanation Sunlight. I found this on the web as well:

A.A. History - Regarding The Lord's Prayer In A.A.

I still don't like the Lord's prayer, but Bill Wilson had a pretty darn good answer.

[Sunlight81]

Bill would be the first person to point out that it is up to each group how they run thier meeting.
Sometimes sharing this letter helps.

[zencat]

I don't say the Lords prayer but I do stand among those that do. I usually chant a small mantra under my breath so as to remind me of my chosen path.

[Rusty Zipper]

for me, i can go with the flow...

i like a few few key words in in...

"thy will be done"

"Give us this day"

"lead us not into temptation"

i lost my terminal uniqueness... lol

[AliceinWndrland]

They say the Lord's prayer at the end of my Alanon meeting as well. At first I wondered if others would be offended that I stood silently and did not recite along - the honest truth is - I wasn't raised Christian and I don't even know how the prayer goes. I usually just use the time to take a quiet moment in my own head to absord what was said during the meeting. Last night we did the serenity prayer as the closing instead and I liked that much better. but, it seems most people like doing the lord's prayer, so I don't let it bother me, or take awy from everything else I heard and learned during that time.

[ElektrykEye]

Thanks for all of the responses. I disagree with Bill W. on this one... it IS a Christian prayer. I also feel that the founders of AA and Al-Anon probably knew that the program wasn't completely perfect (I keep hearing about progress, not perfection... surely that applies to the evolution of the program itself). We live in a different society than the one Bill W. and his friends and family members lived in. I just don't think tradition should blindly hold a group to something that is contradictory... I think progress should be made.

I, too, was fine to hold hands but not recite the Lord's Prayer... I certainly wouldn't have left the group over it being said. I did end up leaving the group, however, because this situation led to the intolerance of its members being very apparent. I don't need intolerance or drama from a support group, so I will look elsewhere and hopefully I will find a group that will either say the Serenity Prayer at the end or at least won't get into a discussion about dropping the Lord's Prayer... if I'm ignorant to others' intolerance, at least I can attend and feel comfortable. In some cases, I do feel that ignorance is bliss.

[ananda]

I would also say that bill w. is wrong...wow...he is only a human being despite common opinion! lol

During the lords prayer I say something from my buddhist tradition. AA is a basically christian tradition formed group just as in my country we are a christian based country.

In my AA group and in most of my contry there is a high degree of acceptance of difference, however not total. And even "non-christians" still come from the jewish/christian tradition historically speaking.

One of the challange that I never faced in my drinking was how to live in a world where these conditions exsist. So I am learning how to do this in a way that is true to myself and still allows me to live with others.

In aa they say that we can sober regardless of anyone or anything (conditions). I believe that is true.

[citychick]

I thought you might be interested in reading the original Lords Prayer. It’s a translation from the original Aramaic. I prefer the sentiments expressed in this version, but don’t really have a problem with the English version. You can see, a whole lot was lost in translation lol. We don’t use the Lords Prayer to close up meetings here. The Serenity prayer is our closer.




The Prayer of Jesus in Aramaic ("The Lord's Prayer")

Abwoon d'bwashmaya
O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos/ you create all that moves in light.
Nethqadash shmakh
Focus your light within us--make it useful: as the rays of a beacon show the way.
Teytey malkuthakh
Create your reign of unity now--through our firey hearts and willing hands.
Nehwey sebyanach aykanna d'bwashmaya aph b'arha.
Your one desire then acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms.

Habwlan lachma d'sunqanan yaomana.
Grant what we need each day in bread and insight:
subsistence for the call of growing life.
Washboqlan khaubayn (wakhtahayn)
aykana daph khnan shbwoqan l'khayyabayn.
Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,
as we release the strands we hold of others' guilt.
Wela tahlan l'nesyuna
Don't let us enter forgetfulness
Ela patzan min bisha.
But free us from unripeness
Metol dilakhie malkutha wahayla wateshbukhta l'ahlam almin.
From you is born all ruling will, the power and the life to do,
the song that beautifies all, from age to age it renews.

Ameyn.
Truly--power to these statements--
may they be the source from which all my actions grow.
Sealed in trust & faith. Amen.

[ElektrykEye]

Originally Posted by citychick

I thought you might be interested in reading the original Lords Prayer. It’s a translation from the original Aramaic. I prefer the sentiments expressed in this version, but don’t really have a problem with the English version. You can see, a whole lot was lost in translation lol. We don’t use the Lords Prayer to close up meetings here. The Serenity prayer is our closer.




The Prayer of Jesus in Aramaic ("The Lord's Prayer")

Abwoon d'bwashmaya
O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos/ you create all that moves in light.
Nethqadash shmakh
Focus your light within us--make it useful: as the rays of a beacon show the way.
Teytey malkuthakh
Create your reign of unity now--through our firey hearts and willing hands.
Nehwey sebyanach aykanna d'bwashmaya aph b'arha.
Your one desire then acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms.

Habwlan lachma d'sunqanan yaomana.
Grant what we need each day in bread and insight:
subsistence for the call of growing life.
Washboqlan khaubayn (wakhtahayn)
aykana daph khnan shbwoqan l'khayyabayn.
Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,
as we release the strands we hold of others' guilt.
Wela tahlan l'nesyuna
Don't let us enter forgetfulness
Ela patzan min bisha.
But free us from unripeness
Metol dilakhie malkutha wahayla wateshbukhta l'ahlam almin.
From you is born all ruling will, the power and the life to do,
the song that beautifies all, from age to age it renews.

Ameyn.
Truly--power to these statements--
may they be the source from which all my actions grow.
Sealed in trust & faith. Amen.

Wow... very interesting indeed! I actually think the original prayer was more "spiritual" (vs religious) than the one recited today... or maybe it just sits better with me personally... I don't know. Thanks for posting it!