Music

Hey Donny,
Keep drinking until you lose your wife, the kids don't talk to you and you're flat busted 'cause you lost your job and can't afford to buy booze so you have to drink strained shoe polish and vanilla and then go back to that meeting and talk to that a-hole. At that point you'll better identify and he'll be able to make sense to you.

Dan

My two cents on your post Donny...
You're just not ready to stop drinking yet. A part of you really wants to though, I have no doubt. So I'm not surprised you think you got a raw deal at the AA meeting.
Here's the good news about that; it didn't cost you a dime, and the dude that pissed you off didn't lose any sleep over it.
Now I really hope you check out some of the other programs.
I tell you man, we're lucky addicts and alcoholics in this day and age to have so many alternatives when it comes to getting help. Be it a program or counseling or treatment.
The ones before us didn't have the luxury of choice we enjoy.

Can I give you just one simple word of advice, one man with a drinking problem to another?
Park your ego at the door long enough to listen to whoever you decide to listen to.
And the anger thing you got going on?
I had that too. And until I found a way to deal with the anger that clouded my judgement at every turn, sobriety always remained just beyond my reach.

Lastly, use condoms if you don't already.

And if you come back and want to listen to some of our stories, I'll tell you how I went from full time employed,master technician, premium vodka, to unemployed, disgraced, aqua velva, in the space of six months or less.
And the kicker?
That wasn't my first time on skid row either

2dayzmuse

Ooops. Persuading, no? Offering my experience strength and hope, yes. Don't know anything about the other programs, but that's why whe have you around Don S. I knew you'd pop in to do your thing. Honestly, I don't think Donny is ready to be accountable for his actions and wants to place the blame. But, who am I to make that assumption. Jumping to conclusions after one meeting of any program is going to get the same results no matter what program it is. Someone says something they don't want to hear. They're out of there. You have to be willing to accept you disease and be accountable for your actions. Not blaming someone for gaining 40 pounds for eating Doritos and ring dings. Rediculous...

Donny try another program. Maybe you can find something suitable for you. The main thing is you get the help you need to quit drinking. Life will be much easier.

Time4Me11

Very interesting, contentious and pertinent thread guys!

No reason that reconvering alcoholics can't have strong opinions and healthy argument...I often get that "neutered" feeling when reading some of the posts here.

I am at two weeks in my recovery and have done it almost completely alone due to my current geographical location...outside of supportive phone calls and SR! I really just had had enough of my behaviour, disease, addiction, destructiveness, misery...and on and on.

Anyway, heading back to my home in NYC in a day to start a full time program or combination of. I will check out AA again. (along with other alternatives)..but, got to add that it really didn't pull me in the first few tries either.

I do have a deep, complicated and personal "uderstanding/relationship" with what I would call a "Higher Power".... or universal energy. But, it moves THROUGH me and is not there simply to surrender to. I cannot just throw up my arms and move out of the way...I am responsible and the conduit and interpretter of that power.

Buddhism has become a very interesting study and support for me...and it surely doesn't "preach" any sort of outside reliance...although it is based on the genuine birthright of every living being as being filled with radiance and goodness...we just have to get back to it...but, without a lot of hand holding.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAh...Anyway, it will be interesting to see how these belief systems are accepted...or not...in my local AA group.

Appreciate hearing of any alternatives Don S and others...Finding what works for me will be a very important part of my recovery.

Lance

Dan

The biggest.
Safe travels back to New York Lance.
Don't be a stranger.

Chy

I'm serious folks, if a member comes to this forum wanting alternative approaches for recovery when they have SPECIFICALLY stated they do not wish to further pursue AA, back off!

There are many methods to recovery, AA is not the only way. It may be your way, my way, but if that's not what they need or want the promotion of unwanted suggestions will simply leave a further bad taste in their mouths. Everyone deserves the right to choose what works for them!

holmes108

Agreed. I think it's great if AA works for you. But it does not sound like it's for everyone. Honestly, I don't even know if there is one for me. I think I have the strength to do it myself. This forum may even be enough. I just needed to know there were others like me. I've never suffered physical side effects from quitting. No withdrawls. I quit for well over 4 months with no real problem other than an occasional craving, like I crave a burger. Then I felt that I had done so well, I was ready to try again, in moderation. But I wasn't. It's the whole Lay's potato chips/Chain drinking think. I can't have just one. And as few as one or 2 can often guarantee many more than that. Especially if it's easily at my disposal, like at home.

NoMoBeer

Hey, Ken here -- high bottomed drunk -- and THANK YOU to Music and DangerousDan for showing where my drinking would have taken me.

Chy, you're right -- we should not shove AA down anyone's throat, I just think those of us who have gotten sober in AA get frustrated when folks go to one meeting and decide it's not for them.

For me, it's frustrating because what if this person judges every recovery program by one shot at it, then kills his or her self with drinking/drugging?

Then again, someone has to make up the "non-recovered" part of the statistics.

Either way, I do hope that everyone who comes here for recovery and sobriety finds it, in whatever form it comes... You don't HAVE to lose everything, but sometimes that's what it takes.

Ken

doorknob

I've met alot of guys like the one at the AA meeting, gals too. He was right, there was certainly a denial of responsibility, but the way he went about putting that point across seemed smug and mean spirited. Maybe some newcomers respond positively to that? And the ones that tell people that they aren't ready to recovery because they don't accept all of the dogma... the 'go out and drink some more until you are down and out enough that you will believe anything' message. I've heard that a few times lol. Not really a responsible message to give to newcomers either. Thankfully not everyone in AA is like that and thankfully there are alternatives if you look for them, and even some AA members that will turn you on to those alternatives if they think it may be a better fit.

Paul J

Time2Surrender

I didnt have anything good to say about AA after my first meeting,or 2nd or 3rd or.............But,thank God I kept going back!

Don S

Forums are great support for abstinence, and many people find face-to-face meetings unnecessary. There are also online meetings available through this forum, and SMART Recovery has them every day of the week as well.
Don S

Patsyd1

Hi Chy,

I don't know what another alcoholic needs to hear or not hear to achieve sobriety, thats not my job. I can't keep anyone sober, and I can't make anyone drink. I can't make anyone attend AA or attend a Secular program, thats not my job either. I am simply not that powerful. I share my experience, strength and hope, not to control anyone but to share what my own experience has been in getting sober. When I was in active alcoholism, the only thing that I was able to choose that worked for me..... was another drink.


Control is a funny thing, it seems to have this side effect, that I can't try to control, without being controlled. When I was in the midst of untreated alcoholism, I didn't know at all what would help me or wouldn't help me. I "thought" I did. lol And when I was blaming people, places and things for my drinking, it didn't matter who it was that tried to get me to see that, I wasn't going to see that because I was in denial. I was in denial about my alcoholism, I was in denial about my ability to control my drinking and in denial about being able to control everyone around me, what they said, what they thought, what they did and what they didn't do. Today, controlling others isn't an option because control is an illusion, a delusion that tells me that if I say just the right thing, if I do just the right thing, if I can just get things the way that I want them, if I can just get people to do what I want them to... then all will be well.

The delusion of "control" was still there, even after I put the drink down, because I was convinced that if I just tried hard enough to get people, places and things to stay put, If I just tried hard enough to arrange outcomes to my own satisfaction, if I could just get people to agree with me, then I could manage my own life, and not until then. It didn't work when I was drinking, it didn't work when I thought that I knew what I needed, and it doesn't work today sober. Controlling others is something that I had to get honest about, that it was my problem, and that it didn't matter how hard I tried to control those around me, or to get outcomes the way that I wanted them....because controlling, in reality, is a delusion that simply doesn't exist except in the mind of the one who is deluded.

Isn't telling "certain" alcoholics to be silent about their experiences with alcoholism, in reality, just buying into the delusion that if we can just get people, places and things to do it our way, if only the outside was just right, if we can just get all the arrangements the way want them, if we can just control what others do or do not do, if we can just control what others say or do not say....... then we can get sober? Thats one of the many lies that helped this alkie to stay in the delusion that I could drink or not drink....IF

We are alcoholics, and when in the midst of untreated alcoholism, whether we are drinking or not, trying to control people, places and things is a delusion that simply doesn't work here at SR or in a Secular program or in AA....... because control is a delusion that doesn't exist in "reality". And no matter what program I attend or share about, I must stay in "reality" because to do anything else means that I am living in the delusion of untreated alcoholism, whether actively drinking or not.

Today, I have no idea what an alcoholic living in the delusion of untreated alcoholism needs to hear or not hear, because I am simply not that powerful. It wasn't any particular program that left a bad taste in my mouth, it was my untreated alcoholism that left a bad taste in this alkies mouth.

Chy if you tell us AA's that we shouldn't share our experience, strength and hope with another alcoholic who is living in the delusion of untreated alcoholism, then of course I will back off.

Chy

I don't know why this is such a difficult concept. I respect the wishes of others, period. I said in my reminder "this is not to suggest AA is taboo in this forum, just be considerate of the members initial request". If they don't want what we have, what we know to be true for us as individuals let it go or offer another alternative .

Telling them to go back to a meeting when they're not ready, telling them they're wrong is not for us to determine. ESPECIALLY when they've made it clear they don't want to get suggestions about AA. Talk about control when we persist in doing so!

We were all pathetic souls before we sought out recovery. If someone told me I didn't belong there, to go away until I got a reality check screw it. I'd have NEVER gone back, never! I was just like him when I walked in the doors, it wasn't about me at all! We're deluded enough as it is when active, but it is up to us, and us alone to figure out what we need.

It's not that difficult, it really isn't it's called respect.


See I don't get frustrated. I just pray they find something. I can choose to get frustrated, or choose to remain hopeful. I work real hard at not letting others rule my emotions, life is to short and they're just not that powerful.

We all get there when we're supposed to and them walking away in search of something else after one meeting is in my opinion HP's way of saying "not your time.. yet".

NoMoBeer

Chy:
I am not personally frustrated, I try to practice "live and let live." If someone chooses another program, or goes back to drinking, or whatever -- I accept that, like I said, that's why we have statistics.

I have to say, though, that I don't like when people judge the program by one meeting or even a handful. My opinion, nothing else.

I still agree that AA should not be forced upon anyone as the only way. It's the way for this drunk, and if people have questions about it, I hope they ask for my ESH.

Ken

Don S

To describe your own (previous) condition as 'denial' is not unreasonable. To describe someone else's condition as 'denial' is to put yourself into their head.

I don't think it's a useful term, and it is worth emphasizing that not all recovery programs use it. Many of us had not recognized the impact alcohol was having on our lives--obviously quitting drinking makes many things clearer, especially hindsight. Perhaps our thoughts about what we drink 'for' are not entirely 'rational'. But describing someone else as delusional dismisses their perspective as being totally without validity.

We drink/drank for complicated reasons. Sometimes the way someone expresses something ('I have to get drunk before I can go home,' etc.) is another way of describing things that can be discussed as stress factors, triggers, etc.

In a behavioral approach we would look at those comments and explore them, because they indicate beliefs that may be leading to unhealthy behavior. Change the beliefs, you can change the behavior. So rather than calling them delusional, we'd ask if they are realistic, or exaggerated, or are based on absolute or demanding thinking.

Don S

Patsyd1

Hi Chy,
This gentleman shared that "everyone" listened and didn't judge him at all at this one AA meeting and that this one guy came over and told him that he wasn't ready for AA yet. I don't know Chy, from what I read that he wrote, "everyone" there respected him, but this one guy. Its just my thoughts, but it might have been nice to allow AA's the "respect" to share with him what their experience is in AA.

Not that it would have changed anything, because no one knows what will help someone else get sober. I know for myself, that I came through those doors confused, angry, lost, hurting. I had a few guys who literally yelled in my face, that I BETTER READ THE BIG BOOK. I didn't like them at all, and in fact I still don't. lol What I did want was to get sober.

Yes I agree with you that we all were pathetic souls before we sought recovery, I know I was. When I wasn't ready to get sober Chy, I would have found that one person whether they were in AA, a Secular program or even right here at SR. When I wasn't ready to get sober, there could have been one hundred and fifty people who would have listened and not judged me, and I would have found that ONE person, no matter what program I went to.
Because it isn't about whether one person had no respect for me or everyone else there that did have respect for me. When I wasn't ready to get sober, it was me, who had no respect for me.

I am not trying to be argumentative Chy, I guess what I am trying to say is that if someone wants to get sober, there is nothing I can say or do to stop them. If someone doesn't want to get sober, there is nothing I can say or do, to stop them.

I do understand what you are saying Chy and I respect your request.

Mogqua

Thinking this was a chance to spout AA alternatives is equally as fanatical as those trying to get someone to return to AA.

When we come in with a disposition that it's all about AA or all about the alternatives, we lose sight of the real problem.

The "hurdles" we deal with are the ones we come in with (whatever their form or name).

The fact is that you find personalities in any form of recovery, whether it is AA, SMART, SOS, etc.

In truth, bullies and predators exist everywhere. In our own mind, we can perceive these even when none are there.

F-Don could just as easily had the same experience at a SMART meeting.
But that doesn't make SMART wrong. Just as it doesn't make AA wrong.

The individual that inflicted this upon another may be a problem and even symptomatic of the group, however, it was just one experience and if the "hurdle" is not identified then the experience has a greater chance of being repeated.
And the next time it just may be at a "Alternative" meeting.

And then the excuses escalate. And the desire for any form of recovery is dampened

So, IMO, it really has more to do with helping F-Don to realize that change can be problematic at first and to not let it block you from what you want.

What I was suggesting was to modify the obsession for one behavior for a better one.

What makes this thread (and others) about AA and its "Alternatives" are the perceptions we bring in to the threads.
And most times it is not even asked for (by AA or the alternatives).
Even when it is masked by that deception.

Deriving the real question without fervor takes practice.
It really doesn't even matter if the questioner is asking sincerely or knows what their question is. In this we should be able to help. But not if we choose to see it in our own narrow view or see it as a chance to convert or confuse.

Be Well

Dan

Me, when I post on a message board, I try and remember what kind of communication medium it is. And I also take it upon myself to keep in mind that the person I am answering may or may not be full of sh!t/desperate/angry/confused/fearful/opinionated etc, etc...
In other words, it's not up to me to interpret why a person states: Please tell me about other things aside from AA.
None of my business why/when/or even if this decision is a lucid or delusional one.
Again, keeping in mind the nature of this medium, if I have anything to say to this person, it's incumbent upon me to respect his/her wishes.

I've stopped counting how many newbies that came to SoberRecovery for answers have left angrier than they were when arriving because their simple request wasn't respected.
And I think about a lot of them. Most days.

Carrying the message of recovery I found in AA, in the limited two dimensional way afforded by this medium, simply has to be different than the way I do it in 3D.
That's just a truism many can argue if they want.
It's not a question of right or wrong.
It just is.

Patsyd1

Thank you, I appreciate your perspective so much

((((((((((Mogqua))))))))))))

Don S

"It really doesn't even matter if the questioner is asking sincerely or knows what their question is."
LOL!! Evidently not!
Don