Lizzieloulou

Does anyone else here feel embarrassed and ashamed that they have allowed themselves to be sucked-in by an alcoholic? This is my second marriage, and I pinned all my hopes on this to be comforting in my middle age, and to grow old with a companion. Don't get me wrong, my parents and family are good and reasonable people who only want the best for me, but after one failed marriage, a disastrous relationship with a gambling addict, and now an alcoholic, I am just too embarrassed to tell them! I guess I am just really crap at choosing men, and I am really, REALLY ashamed to admit that! My two siblings have only married once and are still happily so, so I look like a real loser compared to them! The confusing thing is that I am well-educated and reasonably intelligent, so I am really annoyed with myself for not resisting 'bad apples!' What's wrong with Me?!! I probably will tell them eventually, but my parents are both nearly eighty and live away from me, so I don't want them stressed! I only wish that I could have met an uncomplicated and 'normal' person to share my life with, and to have been as happy as my parents have been for the last 56 years! 5 years of peace would be nice!!!

Hangnbyathread

Yep I was crushed. But the more you learn the more you will know how you got manipulated.

But yep I was pretty hard on myself for about 6 months or so.

Lizzieloulou

Thank you hangingbyathread. You are quite right...the more we experience these things, the more we will learn. I really think that I am a soft target though, because I always see the good in people, and I always give them second (correction, 30!!!) Chances! I have always suffered from not wanting to upset or stifle people, but the consequence of this of course is that you always end up putting yourself second. I am not a 'want'er, and I am content with simple things, so you wouldn't think that it would be SO hard to find someone with the same values?! I have come to realise that there are 'givers' and 'takers,' and I always seem to end up with the latter! Even after all of my experience of living with addicts, I still try not to judge them... I have just had enough of trying to figure them out! They are who they are, and I am 'me.' I hope that when everything does eventually 'come out in the wash,' that I too will be able to shake-off this immense shame...it is much too heavy to carry around anymore!

wanttobehealthy

The limited relationships I have had since the end of my horrific marriage to a sociopath, alcoholic, abuser, have been with men who in my estimation, all have varying degrees of similar-ish issues as xAH.

And it is hard on my ego to admit that I continue to choose men who are losers.

I have taken a hiatus from any relationship at all for some time now because I realized that for whatever reason, despite having my stuff together in a lot of ways, I was choosing men who were needy or had issues and I simply have no time for that.

Maybe you (and I) need to re-frame how we see ourselves and say this:
"hey, maybe I have chosen men with issues, but at least this time around I am recognizing that and am NOT content to tolerate it"

I think that a lot of women, many friends I have in fact represent this frighteningly well, are ok to turn a blind eye to crap behavior, because they prefer that to being alone or they prefer to bury their head in the sand about issues they know exist in their relationships bc that is easier than facing reality.

So, you should be proud of yourself for seeing things for what they are and being unhappy about it-- that is something a lot of folks don't see and aren't willing to see...

Nata1980

Yes. Ashamed that I stayed as long as I did.

Hence I have absolutely no desire to get into another "relationship". Last weekend a friend made me sign up on a dating site (over a glass of wine), my profile was live for two hours, during which I have encountered several gross sleazy dudes. No thanks. I honestly cannot imagine investing energy (and sitter money) in anyone right now.

Smarie78

Yes very much so! Unfortunately I shared my pains with my sister the first time he relapsed and the more I shared, the more it made it through the family pipeline and instead of just the self-shame that comes from within, I also feel shamed by my family. I found out this weekend that my brother actually asked my sister if they should all start ignoring me until I leave him to force me. I was very hurt by this not only because this is my family whom I am incredibly close with, but also because I am hanging by a thread as it is that the last thing I need is others to look at me like, 'wow you are really some pathetic woman to keep putting up with this'.

It's hard. Like you, I am educated and reasonably intelligent, but I too have been sucked into abusive and destructive relationships most of my adult life. I don't fit the mold either as I've no history of abuse as a child or anything of that nature. I'm not sure where it comes from but boy, does it make you feel like a real idiot knowing how people must see you. I envy that you haven't told your family yet - I wish I didn't because it has made everything 100X harder. Best of luck to you.

We've nothing to be ashamed about, however, we are responsible for walking away from something we know is harmful to us - much like the A in our life.

Praying

I was taught as a child to be kind, give benefit of the doubt, see other people's perspectives, learn to adjust your behavior to feedback, be forgiving...

All good things.

After my marriage to XAH, those GOOD qualities had gotten so twisted that they weren't being used in a healthy way anymore. I saw that, and once my eyes were open, I hated part of myself for what I put up with. It took a while to work through.

I honestly thought I was in good shape as I entered the next LTR...only to find out he was an alcoholic in denial who relapsed after we moved in together with our kids. I was angry with myself, and oh so embarrassed, and I wondered what my problem was until my friend said--before you beat yourself up, pay attention to the fact that once you SAW it, you knew it wasn't right, and you chose what was best for you...and got out.

IMO, there are SO many people out there with major issues...nothing is guaranteed and it doesn't make you bad for taking a risk. I learned that I need to take SLOWER risks with relationships...I'll let you know how that one pans out as I'm currently a turtle in the relationship world.

So I'd say-- don't judge yourself. Choose what's best for you and count it as a good thing if you walk away from something you can SEE is unhealthy. IMO not walking away to save face is he unhealthy thing. (It took me several months to pull that trigger in LTR#2.)

My family just wanted me to be happy- it sounds like yours do too. They may just hate that they have to watch this and can't help fix it for you.

dandylion

Yep....I think that most of us have been guilty of putting up with a bad situation longer than we should have....just to "save face"......

A friend once remarked, to me...."don't sacrifice your ass just to save your face"....
That pi**ed me off, at the time...but, I. later, realized that he was right.....

honeypig

Lizzie, I TOTALLY felt shame and embarrassment! How could I have let all this go on under my nose? Why didn't I check the bank statements? How could I not know he was spending our savings on alcohol and cigarettes, and how could I not even know that he was drinking and smoking? What kind of fool was I? This viewpoint made me pretty blind and stupid and naive.

Well, as others pointed out to me, why would I check up on the person I married? I trusted him. I loved him. Why would I imagine he'd do these things? So that viewpoint made me the innocent victim.

The truth was somewhere in between. Yes, he did lie and hide and spend joint funds w/o my knowledge or consent. All true. But after he'd been caught at various activities for the first time, I kept on giving more chances or just outright acting as if it had never happened at all. So I take some blame too. But yes, absolutely, I did feel like an idiot, like I'd just fallen off the turnip cart and had no clue...

Someone here posted the following, and it did a lot for me as far as getting past the anger of feeling victimized and the embarrassment and shame of being fooled:

For the first time, I realized that I was not just a hapless victim of his choices. I was a willing participant. This realization didn't bring me shame. It empowered me. If I was part of the problem, then I was also part of the solution. My fate was not tied to his. This was a very freeing moment for me.

Hope you find it useful too.

shockozulu

I went through that with my fiance. Then a good friend reminded me how strong I was to be able to let go of that relationship as my ex's drinking will only get worse. Her words took a while to sink in, but now I wear them as a badge of honor.

timetohealguy

I can relate to how you feel.

Not only women turn a blind eye to crap behaviour. As a man, I do that too, and a number of my male friends also do that.

I have spoken to a therapist a lot about this stuff. The therapist told me that one way this can happen is if a person grows up in a home with a significant amount of dysfunction in that home, their sensitivity to stuff that people should be called out on is reduced. They can get used to levels of behaviour that are not normal, but they think that it is normal because that is what they grew up around. So their thermometer of at what point someone else's behaviour becomes "not ok", is skewed.

In my case, the point at which I will say to a woman who I am in a relationship with "the way you are behaving is not OK", is way higher / worse than it should be - I let smaller things slide that I see as "not that bad", which someone else might already be calling the other person out on.

So I tend to give people too much slack, they take every bit of that slack, and then when their behaviour reaches my threshold of "this is not OK", when I speak up it is almost like I have left it too late.

I feel like if I spoke earlier on when I first started feeling "slightly uncomfortable" about their behaviour, then maybe their behaviour wouldn't escalate to the point at which I say "this is absolutely not OK".

In other words, behaviour from someone I was dating which might make someone else feel like "this is not ok at all !" makes me feel only "slightly uncomfortable".

With my ex, literally the first time I realised that the way she was treating me was not OK and I spoke up about it, was a few days before the first time she threatened me with physical violence. It is like I am blind to much else up to that point.


One of my male friends was asking me lots of questions about my ex's drinking. He then told me that his girlfriend was drinking a lot too, and he started asking if my ex got very angry when she was drunk etc. He then revealed to me that behind closed doors he was being subjected to serious physical violence by his girlfriend when she was drunk.

He is a really good, kind guy - the kind of guy that other guys trust. But I get the feeling he is a lot like me in his relationships - and there are some people who will take advantage of not being called out on stuff and just escalate their behaviour.

Many men think that we can fix things - it's how we're wired. Alcohol becomes just something else we try to fix.


For the women reading this, if you have a male friend who you trust who knows the guy you are thinking of dating, ask him what he thinks of the guy you are thinking of dating. Many guys get a feeling rightaway that something is "not quite right" about a guy who later turns out to be abusive. The key is to ask your friend very early about the guy you are thinking of dating, so they don't feel like they can't speak their mind, and tell your friend why you want their opinion.

I am sure that women get similar feelings that something is "not quite right" about some women. Often guys don't see that in women they are dating, and often women don't see it in guys they are dating. Guys can have a blindspot to some women, which women don't have. And some women can have a blindspot to some men, which men don't have.


In my ex's case, unknown to me she had a history of alcohol problems. I didn't meet her through mutual friends, and neither her friends nor her family told me about her alcohol history until her friends told me about it during her first major alcohol relapse after I met her. By then her and I were living together and the alcohol relapse had many months of head start on me.

For a very long time there was no mention from her family of her history of alcohol issues. By the time her family admitted her alcohol history to me, she was in huge trouble with alcohol. No one expects anyone to rightaway tell the person that their family member is dating that their family member has a history with alcohol, but as soon as it becomes obvious they are drinking again, and especially if two people are living together, that needs to happen rightaway.

Had I known that she had a history of alcohol problems, I would have known her drinking was a relapse and got her help much earlier - for months I was in a fog thinking that she was under stress and had just started to drink a bit too much. I didn't have the full context that that drinking was occurring in, because I didn't know about her earlier alcohol problems. Had I known her alcohol history, not only would she not have been able to BS me for months when her relapse started, but I would have gotten her into rehab as early as possible.

wanttobehealthy

Thank you SO much for your reply-- it is really helpful to hear a man's take on this all...

Interestingly, I grew up with all sorts of dysfunction in my own family but I was the canary in the mineshaft or emperor has no clothing on type of kid in the family who saw the crazy and talked about it-- it got me a lot of abuse and hurt and pain as a kid and got me to marry a crazy alcoholic (who I thought I would save from himself) but the good in all of this is that, like you, when I did finally get myself out of the mess, I could see it a lot more clearly than I would have if I hadn't had that kind of background...

Not sure if Im rambling or making sense but mostly just wanted to say thank you for your post! Really thought provoking and grateful to you for posting it.

Hayfmr

I didn't grow up around alcohol so when the STBEXAW's alcoholism started to show up I didn't understand it and wanted to deny what was happening. Took me years to be honest about what it was. Then I was able to look back and see the signs that was hiding her addictions till after we got married. Also managed to hid her smoking. I am ashamed to admit that I tolerated it for way too many years. Now that I am getting free of it life is so much better.

I am so much smarter at spotting the signs now. I will never again become involved with an addict. Anything more than a casual drink will cause me to run.

timetohealguy

I'm glad you found it helpful. I often find that many of the problems that women deal with in relationships are also problems that men deal with in relationships. Men just seem to keep these things to themselves more and not talk to anyone about it.

I grew up in a family surrounded by strong women, so maybe my attitude to these kinds of things is a bit different to some other men. I was taught from very young age that both genders are equal.

In some cases I think that some problems that are treated as a gender based problem are not a gender based problem ... Some people try to portray abuse as a "problem with men", but there are also abusive women, so I see it not as an "abusive men" problem nor an "abusive women problem", but as an abusive people problem.

Sure there are gender differences between abusive women and abusive men, but I believe that if people focused on the similarities between the behavior of both abusive men and abusive women, and less on the differences, and saw the problem as an abusive people problem instead of a "men's problem" or a "women's problem", society would be better equipped to solve the problems of both abusive men and abusive women.

Look at alcoholism for example, we don't draw as strong gender lines between alcoholic women and alcoholic men in the way that we do with some other problems.

There are differences between alcoholic men and alcoholic women, but we tend to delineate those differences less when we are talking about alcoholics. We tend to talk about alcoholics more as a group of both men and women who have similar symptoms, not one or the other. We talk about them as alcoholic people, because the stories about alcoholic men and alcoholic women have so many similarities. I have read many stories on the forum written by women about the alcoholic behavior of their husbands, where I think, "yep, my female ex did that too".

Many family systems hate a truthteller.

One of my ex's relatives absolutely turned on me when I dared to speak the truth about her drinking and tried to get her help for her drinking. That person seemed absolutely outraged that I had dared to speak a word to anyone outside their family about my ex's problems.

These two articles make interesting reading ...

Misadventures with Angry Alcoholics, Bullies and Narcissists: ostracism and being the scapegoat in the alcoholic family

Scapegoat Role - Kellevision

Part of that second article reads ...

--------
"The scapegoat is typically indoctrinated to believe there is something wrong with them. If they are a child or teenager they may be dropped off at the therapist to be fixed, the "identified patient". And this may be what saves them.

The rest of the family denies any wrong doing. They have no problems, there is nothing wrong with them, they don't need treatment, they don't need to change - they tell themselves. It's all the scapegoat. So the scapegoat grows up believing there is something wrong with them and fighting to change it. The family, by contrast, believes they have no problems and do not need to change. So they don't.

People who can't, or won't, change are locked into their behaviors. Because they cannot change, they cannot heal, they cannot do anything different. They are doomed to be just as they are. If they are raging narcissists, they are doomed to die narcissists. If they are alcoholics, they may die of liver disease. Since they won't take responsibility for their behavior, they cannot change it, so they are doomed to keep repeating it.

But the scapegoat can change. They can heal. They can move past it and learn a healthier way of being. For that reason alone, being the scapegoat may make one stronger. Because the scapegoat is willing, and able, to admit there is a problem - they have the power and the freedom to change it."
--------

timetohealguy

I went through exactly the same thing.

I think I was minimizing the problem in my head because I had no experience of that situation. I didn't know what an alcohol looked like. I literally thought for many many months that my ex just occasionally drank too much. She kept the reality of her drinking hidden from me for almost a year. When I finally saw it for it what it was, I felt like an idiot for all the signs that I had dismissed or discounted.

I find intoxication so unattractive now. A few weeks ago I ran into a woman at a party who I had met a few times who I thought was attractive. I'm not interested in dating anyone at the moment, but she caught my attention.

An hour or so later I noticed that she had been drinking constantly for the whole time I had been there. When she smiled at me and sat down to talk to me, she was clearly intoxicated and then dribbled red wine out of her mouth as she tried to take another sip of it. I pretended not to notice. We chatted for a while then when she got up from her chair she stumbled off. I instantly thought to myself "what a pity". She is a nice woman, but I can't deal with that stuff ever again.

NYCDoglvr

Personally I don't think you owe anyone an explanation. I can relate to feeling embarrassment and shame when my codependent relationship finally died. I realized the problem is ME, because I picked him and went to Alanon so it didn't happen again. It's what you do now that will make the difference down the road and you can change the your choices. A big hug. We all just humans doing the best we know.

carolineno

I feel ashamed to have stayed so long. I always knew it was wrong deep down. I went from a warped childhood with 2 alcoholic parents, one with serious mental illness, right to a warped relationship, so I kept taking the easier, conflict avoidance path and stayed. For years. Other than my current work environment (minus a few rotten apples), a handful of friends, and siblings that have made good decisions and have a solid understanding of themselves (and put themselves first) I honestly think I've been in messed up environments my whole life.

I don't feel shame about getting ready to leave, but I do feel some fear and I feel physically exhausted even thinking about the fighting to come.