Why its said . '' It is a Selfish Program ''
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by stevieg46 
Hi Mike .
You say ''I had to put my sobriety first , not myself '' .
That's what I am talking about throughout my post , ''my sobriety is ME '' if ''I '' am not right ? how can I help others , my sobriety is me , the ''me ''is self , making sure I am alright .
Putting it another way, is it ''selfish '' in a hypothetical way to say '' I would not like to see anyone drunk '' ? but if it came down to the nitty gritty , I would rather see anyone else drunk than be drunk myself ?
That is being ruthless with your own sobriety , how can I help others if I do not work at keeping ''myself '' in good spiritual condition ? if I don't continue on a daily basis to do this then I revert back to my former self , then my old ideas , then I am carrying a ''mess'' that's how in my book some folk can return to alcohol . To me sobriety is the ''magnificent obsession'' which strengthens my sobriety .
I do not see how saying its a selfish program is justifying selfish behavior , its two parts get ''yourself right first and foremost then help others . Maybe its just me but I see ''self '' and selfish as two different things the program to me is not the ''removal of self '' but the ''removal of selfishness '' take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drum he hears .
You say ''I had to put my sobriety first , not myself '' .
That's what I am talking about throughout my post , ''my sobriety is ME '' if ''I '' am not right ? how can I help others , my sobriety is me , the ''me ''is self , making sure I am alright .
Putting it another way, is it ''selfish '' in a hypothetical way to say '' I would not like to see anyone drunk '' ? but if it came down to the nitty gritty , I would rather see anyone else drunk than be drunk myself ?
That is being ruthless with your own sobriety , how can I help others if I do not work at keeping ''myself '' in good spiritual condition ? if I don't continue on a daily basis to do this then I revert back to my former self , then my old ideas , then I am carrying a ''mess'' that's how in my book some folk can return to alcohol . To me sobriety is the ''magnificent obsession'' which strengthens my sobriety .
I do not see how saying its a selfish program is justifying selfish behavior , its two parts get ''yourself right first and foremost then help others . Maybe its just me but I see ''self '' and selfish as two different things the program to me is not the ''removal of self '' but the ''removal of selfishness '' take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drum he hears .
Far from disagreeing with your post, I thought you were giving a good perspective on a saying that is often misunderstood, like the third tradition where some folks hear "the only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking", or interperet "acceptance is the answer as meaning "I should do nothing".
It's all about context and intended meaning.
paradox
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 665
What is self?
I don't know, exactly, but I do know what it is not:
Self is not one-dimensional.
I pray for God to relieve me of the bondage of self on awakening,
ask for defects of character to be removed from me later on,
and at the end of a meeting, ask Him to grant me the serenity, etc.
Each one of those prayers, when answered, benefits myself as well as others . . .
including God.
There is no conflict of interest in maintaining a right spirit within me.
No conflict of interest in putting my sobriety first.
The AA programme can be said to be selfish only as illustrated by the old aeroplane analogy:
In the event of sudden cabin depressurisation (a life threatening condition) . . .
we are told to put the oxygen mask on ourselves before helping others.
But, that's not selfish -- it's common sense -- no conflict of interest.
It's been proven, by experience, to save more lives.
We have to get our own house in order before we can effectively help others.
We can see how our experience can benefit others.
In helping others we help ourselves.
No paradox.
Just a win/win situation.
Both are equally important in my view.
And yet, my opinion means nothing.
I don't know, exactly, but I do know what it is not:
Self is not one-dimensional.
I pray for God to relieve me of the bondage of self on awakening,
ask for defects of character to be removed from me later on,
and at the end of a meeting, ask Him to grant me the serenity, etc.
Each one of those prayers, when answered, benefits myself as well as others . . .
including God.
There is no conflict of interest in maintaining a right spirit within me.
No conflict of interest in putting my sobriety first.
The AA programme can be said to be selfish only as illustrated by the old aeroplane analogy:
In the event of sudden cabin depressurisation (a life threatening condition) . . .
we are told to put the oxygen mask on ourselves before helping others.
But, that's not selfish -- it's common sense -- no conflict of interest.
It's been proven, by experience, to save more lives.
We have to get our own house in order before we can effectively help others.
We can see how our experience can benefit others.
In helping others we help ourselves.
No paradox.
Just a win/win situation.
Both are equally important in my view.
And yet, my opinion means nothing.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
This thread sparked some memories of early sobriety for me - I remember my partner being very definite about how 'selfish' he thought I was. How dare I put MY sobriety above HIS drinking?? Lol.
I needed to be selfish and stay away from the slippery places and slippery people who he wanted to hang around with (but wanted me to be there as well) because in his head they were our 'good friends'. Obviously, I was starting to see things differently, and knew that I had to put my sobriety first. That's when I started to understand that 'what other people think of me is none of my business' - if I make it my business, then my tendency for people-pleasing can easily affect my sobriety negatively.
I needed to be selfish and stay away from the slippery places and slippery people who he wanted to hang around with (but wanted me to be there as well) because in his head they were our 'good friends'. Obviously, I was starting to see things differently, and knew that I had to put my sobriety first. That's when I started to understand that 'what other people think of me is none of my business' - if I make it my business, then my tendency for people-pleasing can easily affect my sobriety negatively.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Very well put Dox everything is a inside job all,'' within'' the ''me '', my ultimate goal is to be rid of self or as Redmayne once posted ''die to self '' but that is my personal esoteric view'' outside issue'' towards enlightment or self realization which as I see it is the next step after spiritual awakening , take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
If a man hears different drummer ? let him march to the drum he hears !
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
If a man hears different drummer ? let him march to the drum he hears !
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
I`ve got an acquaintance whose wife is from Cambodia and her take on spirituality is everything in life is pre-ordained. So there is no point in worrying. What will happen is the way it is supposed to be. You end up drunk again, broke or out on the street so be it. A better time will come in the next life. Right now you`re paying for the sins you committed the last time you walked the earth.
It`s all good.
Whatever helps get you through life is fine by me.
It`s all good.
Whatever helps get you through life is fine by me.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by stevieg46
Hi L I P .
I have commented on this several times . AA preamble makes it ''very clear '' that they are not allied with any sect, denomination ,or institution , do not endorse or oppose any causes . Now that is plain and simple like the nose on your face , Religion and politics are outside issues and cause much controversy .
Traditions are being broken and Preamble is ''being given the elbow '' by individual members collectively endorsing saying the LP , they do so at group level by claiming ''each group is autonomous '' BUT leaving out ''except affecting AA as a whole '' this is downright rationalizing and justification for ''personal ''reasons and they justify their actions by saying ''keep an open mind '' ? but only if it favors them .
Principles before personalities ? groups that persist in ignoring this by insisting on the LP being said are ''not concerned '' about the newcomers impression . AA is not religious ? why say a religious prayer ? they do not care, if others try and shoot me down here I could not care less , but you cannot defend the indefensible and at the end of the day , no matter how you look at it the'' bottom line is self will run riot '' . We will continue to do this no matter what .
LP is full of wisdom 'thy will be done '' etc but its a ''religious prayer . take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
if a man hears a different drum? let him march to the drummer he hears
I have commented on this several times . AA preamble makes it ''very clear '' that they are not allied with any sect, denomination ,or institution , do not endorse or oppose any causes . Now that is plain and simple like the nose on your face , Religion and politics are outside issues and cause much controversy .
Traditions are being broken and Preamble is ''being given the elbow '' by individual members collectively endorsing saying the LP , they do so at group level by claiming ''each group is autonomous '' BUT leaving out ''except affecting AA as a whole '' this is downright rationalizing and justification for ''personal ''reasons and they justify their actions by saying ''keep an open mind '' ? but only if it favors them .
Principles before personalities ? groups that persist in ignoring this by insisting on the LP being said are ''not concerned '' about the newcomers impression . AA is not religious ? why say a religious prayer ? they do not care, if others try and shoot me down here I could not care less , but you cannot defend the indefensible and at the end of the day , no matter how you look at it the'' bottom line is self will run riot '' . We will continue to do this no matter what .
LP is full of wisdom 'thy will be done '' etc but its a ''religious prayer . take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
if a man hears a different drum? let him march to the drummer he hears
you might be drawing a long bow linking it's a selfish program to use of the lord's prayer. I was one of those who once took great offence at the use of the LP in a meeting, and I left, never to return to that meeting. Cut off my nose to spite my face on that one. It was one of the biggest and most popular meetings, and I have the feeling my "beligerent denial" caused me to miss out on something more important.
I would guess, and I am sure someone will know, that the LP predates the use of the serenity prayer in AA. In anycase it's value to someone like me, having got a wee bit saner in the meantime, is that it is a well known prayer that says things I would like to say to my higher power, in a way far better than I could come up with on my own. I look at the sentiment it expresses and find that it fits with my spiritual beliefs. So does the serenity prayer and the St Francis prayer. If you have a look at the book of James in the bible, you will see things that look remarkably like the AA program, and that's fine with me too. I still have not set foot in any kind of church for religious purposes. It's not my scene, but I am happy to pinch some of the best bits.
The preamble does not form part of the AA program, or traditions. It was something knocked up by Grapevine in the 50s (I think). My home group does not use the preamble. Like some others I know of we use the Foreword to the first Edition as a basis for introducing AA. The traditions cover affiliation and if a group was affiliated to an outside organisation, it could not call itself an AA group. (Tradition 3).
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by oldsoul1122
Spiritual in it's essence and religious in it's words. After some thought on the topic this one works for me.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 325
Very interesting. For me I gave up because my world had become totally about myself (my ego) which was causing great suffering to another part of myself (not sure what ?) And now I am becoming free from the effects of alcohol my world is becoming less about me (my ego) which is causing less suffering to that other part of myself (not sure what ?)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob
An interesting thought.
Mine is also within but, comes not from me.
M-Bob
Mine is also within but, comes not from me.
M-Bob
Hi Bob .
I do not believe in a ''religious God '' after 33 yrs of dry drunk and reading extensively many books from various religions and faiths, I realized I could never believe in something'' I did not understand , or understand something I did not believe in'' .
I don't really know if that makes me agnostic or whatever ? I do believe in God in a spiritual manner , the American Indians believed in ''the great spirit '' the bible talks of the ''holy spirit '' other esoteric faiths have various names which boils .
down to the same thing . I ''understand that ''
Depending on what'' version'' of the bible, in the NT in Luke's Gospel Jesus is asked ''will I be beside you in the Kingdom of God/Heaven ''and Jesus replied '' the Kingdom of God /Heaven is within '' .
10 yrs ago, that's when'' I came to believe'' after 33 years in and about AA , Jesus in the desert for 40 days was not tempted because he was filled ''with the holy spirit '' that's what did it for me . I do not view the bible or God as religious , for me it is the spirit within , and heaven is on earth , ''example beyond our wildest dreams '' take care Bob .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder .
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Thanks Mike.
About the preamble did not know that , yet you say its not part of the AA program , I always viewed it as an introduction to AA and understood it covered some of the traditions in its wording , then again ts not really that important to me today .
Yeah selfish program and LP ha ha , well it came up and I said my piece , I do not believe in religion as you know but there are ,like you couple of prayers that read much better than anything I can put into words , LP is one of them (but not at AA meeting ) it is full of wisdom and Francis of Assisi , I used to laugh many years ago when I listened to tapes/golden records of Father John Doe first catholic priest in AA ( Fr Ralph Pfau ) who wrote Prodigal Shepherd and Sobriety and Beyond , he alleged that St Augustine prayed ''lord make me perfect ,but not yet ''. Also like you I only go to religious services for weddings funerals baptisms ( matches dispatches and matches ) take care .
Regards Stevie , recovered 12 03 2006 Words are easy music is much harder
About the preamble did not know that , yet you say its not part of the AA program , I always viewed it as an introduction to AA and understood it covered some of the traditions in its wording , then again ts not really that important to me today .
Yeah selfish program and LP ha ha , well it came up and I said my piece , I do not believe in religion as you know but there are ,like you couple of prayers that read much better than anything I can put into words , LP is one of them (but not at AA meeting ) it is full of wisdom and Francis of Assisi , I used to laugh many years ago when I listened to tapes/golden records of Father John Doe first catholic priest in AA ( Fr Ralph Pfau ) who wrote Prodigal Shepherd and Sobriety and Beyond , he alleged that St Augustine prayed ''lord make me perfect ,but not yet ''. Also like you I only go to religious services for weddings funerals baptisms ( matches dispatches and matches ) take care .
Regards Stevie , recovered 12 03 2006 Words are easy music is much harder
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