EveningRose

Once again, I'm tempted to send a letter to a family member. Once again, I'm reminding myself that talking to them has NEVER done ANY good at all. If anything, it only makes things worse.

My daughter got married Sunday, and my sister couldn't give it a rest even at my daughter's wedding--but took the chance to pull aside my boyfriend, who I've been seeing for two years--first time they ever met--and try and pull him into it, try to get him on their side, tell him what she thinks my faults are, how I'm destroying the whole family (single handedly--kind of amazing!) and hurting everyone, and can't he get me to see sense?

She brought up my father, saying he's totally changed from what he was 20 years ago--I don't know if she's aware that plenty has gone on with him in the last 4 and 5 years, including threats and some pretty vicious, ugly name-calling, ordering me to hang up on a work-related call to talk to him, letters telling me what a lousy daughter and mother he thinks I am.

I am sorely tempted this time to let her know some of what he's done, but I also know part of the family line, my mother telling anyone who will listen, that I make things up. She'll probably just say I'm lying.

I sometimes think I'm part of the problem since I refuse to engage--meaning I also refuse to defend myself and they know I'll never strike back or make an issue of anything they do. But then it's never done any good anyway.

Thoughts?

DesertEyes

Hello EveningRose

Not me.

Same here.

Only one thought. Why?

If you know it makes things worse, if you know nothing has changed, then why are you tempted to believe that things have changed?

In my case I have my own share of "dysfunctional thoughts" that will lead me to believe that I can somehow, some way, change sick people into becoming healthy. If only they would listen to me.

It is an "addiction to fantasy". I have this fantasy that if I just find the right words I can magically create for myself a loving, kind family.

When watching children being raised by dysfunctional parents I see that these parents create that expectation in the kids. If the kids were just quiet enough, then the alkie would not get angry. Of course, the alkie gets angry anyway so who was not quiet enough?

Today I recognize that my "addiction" to fantasy is just another one of those ugly lies that were brainwashed into my head when I was a child. No, there is _nothing_ i can do that will change them because there is nothing that I did to make them the way they are.

That is how the whole "letting go" business works for me. I have to "let go" of the brainwashing that was forced upon me and create a new set of beliefs that are healthy and true. Today I believe that my life will be much happier if I just stay away from toxic people, and especially my family of origin.

So far, it's worked really good.

Mike

EveningRose

Thank you, Mike. This is, of course, exactly how I've managed to live for seven years, and I needed the reminder today.

Although I don't actually expect anything I say would change her. I just get tired of feeling like I never stand up for myself.

DesertEyes

I had no idea how to do that. I was very good at running away, or any of the other "survival mechanisms" we always talk about here. I found that the best way to stand up for myself where it concerned my family was to not be around them in the first place.

Mike

EveningRose

LOL, yeah, me, too. I'm getting really good at simply walking away. And maybe I need to realize that the decision to walk away IS a way of standing up for myself.

The thought that goes through my head is that she's telling an untruth--that this stuff was all 20 years in the past--and maybe she just doesn't know all the ugly things that have happened more recently. So I tell her, and then at least if she repeats 'it was 20 years ago,' it's now with full knowledge, and on her shoulders.

But honestly...I don't think the truth matters to her. She is the one whose screaming rages were the last straw. She needs to defend the status quo at ALL costs, and that means maintaining the story that they're all good and wonderful and I'm terrible. I don't think she really cares that my dad has done these things and continues to do them.

Kialua

Not me either. Even after 80 years of my dad drinking, there was no communication method that worked. Even in his successful AA treatment, the letter "making amends" to me he blamed me and called me a liar. His group made him stop and rewrite the letter but he never had any clarity. And his favorites of my siblings helped him remain the saint in his own eyes and theirs. There is no dealing with sanity sometimes. I guess if you want to try just to get it off your mind, I would say don't expect any success.

EveningRose

Thank you, Kialua. This is sad to hear, and yet reality is what we all need, isn't it?

It just seems, sometimes, that there's nothing to look forward to, no hope. I wouldn't care about THEM. I don't miss them at all. But they are pulling my kids down, and impacting my relationship with them, at least somewhat, by spreading these stories.

tromboneliness

Never works. Our in-house catchphrase is, "It wastes time and annoys the pig."

T

AnvilheadII

it sounds like being as far away from those people would be the healthiest choice!

LifeRecovery

Eveningrose-

I have gotten a lot of support with talking!

My challenge has often been around WHO I should talk to about my challenges.

My therapist and Alanon group.....I usually get something out of it.

My loved one that is not in recovery and is often part of the challenge I am experiencing......not usually helpful.

There is a saying that when we turn to the person that hurt us to heal us it can be very confusing/challenging.

MikeH

Both of my parents said this to me constantly.

I do this a lot, and am having a hard time getting rid of this trait... Mike, you are much further along on this issue than I am.

I feel some sadness when reading this thread (and we have had others that say the same thing...), because it's "family" and it would be nice if, as someone once said: "Can't we all just get along..."

But the unfortunate reality is that no amount of "talking" will straighten most of these people out. Evening Rose, it appears that you've put a Yeoman's Effort into this: the ball's in your FOO's court. We all need to work on our lives and recovery 1st.

silentrun

So that's a thing. I have graduated from me being able to find the perfect words to the person spontaneously figuring it all out somehow. Every time there is any news I hope something has changed. It's always more of the same. More how defective I am for not seeing things their way.

PurpleKnight

I'm with Mike on this, the biggest question is why??!!

The phrase "continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity" springs to mind.

At some point we just have to start living OUR lives, forget about the drama, the nonsense that other people seem to create, because in the end people will have their views, which for the most part are unchangeable, soo why waste time and energy trying to change them?

When it came to family I found myself giving up on changing, challenging, or trying to convince people, but instead reaching an acceptance of the way things were, and focusing on my own life, living it, sticking to my own principles, and continually moving forward in my own journey!!

My own sanity wasn't found in trying to change others, it was found in making peace with myself!!

Hang in there!!

MIRecovery

I have no place in my life for toxic people because there are too many good ones. Toxic people want me to get on the crazy train with them and I simply refuse which drives them nuts but I could care less. They can spread as many lies as they wish because the people I am close too don't believe them and the rest I do not care about. As long as my side of the street is clean I am fine because it is none of my business what others think.

My favorite line, "Not my circus not my monkeys"

FeelingGreat

ER, I sympathise with you, and I understand why you want to justify yourself. If it were just a misunderstanding between you and your sister which could be cleared up by showing her the facts (do you have texts or letters that you could show her?) then maybe it would work. But you say there were difficulties before this incident, so you have grounds for thinking it would escalate or make things worse.

How much importance do you attach to her speaking to your BF? Was she under the influence and just running her mouth off? Is the issue poisoning her relationship with you? If you feel it's a huge barrier between you and her, maybe talk to a family counsellor about whether you should approach her, and how. My feeling about this is that there's a lot more than just this one topic coming between you both.

Avoiding toxic people is good advice, but it's a matter you want to give some thought to. If doing some work on your relationship with her would be productive then why not explore that with a counsellor? At the very least you would help yourself come to terms with it, and it might show you ways to improve things.

EveningRose

I would wish it on no one...yet to know I'm not alone confirms I'm not crazy.


In the last few years, I've done quite well with simply realizing there's no talking. What prompted the latest even glimmer of question of if I should say something was....my sister's statement that 'all that was 20 years ago.'

I wondered, does she really NOT KNOW all the garbage and threats and vulgar name-calling AF has done in the last 5 years????? Honestly, she may not, because he's certainly not going to tell anyone he threatened to come to my work. HE'S certainly not going to tell anyone I spent three weeks with my phone already dialed into 9-1....so I could hit 1 and have help on the way--because he doesn't even know I was scared of him showing up, he was to the best of my knowledge drunk and probably sincerely doesn't even remember leaving those voicemails. So of COURSE she doesn't know.

So why don't I tell her and maybe someone will finally SEE that we're all living in crazy and things that fathers do not do to their daughters?????

But then I think...does it really matter? My so-called mother will just assure them all I make things up. She's been telling people that for years. It's easier for all of them to believe that than to realize this so-called 'man' and 'father' did this to his own daughter.

EveningRose

I generally do well living my own life...but my adult child got married. Said child invited all extended family. As always, I simply maintained a polite facade, didn't approach, didn't start anything, was perfectly civil and friendly to any who spoke to me--which wasn't many. But there were still three incidents during the 36 hours trapped in a hotel with them.

1. My younger child went on a rant, repeating words about me that I know darn well came straight from my mother's mouth--things that aren't true, but she says all the time and when he got upset with another issue (he's autistic), he used them against me. They were her exact words.

2. Older son just by dumb luck talking right under my hotel window as I woke up from a nap--'haha, hope my mom doesn't find out!' and I looked out to see a younger child of mine getting into a vehicle with a sister who has a history of disappearing with one of my children, leaving me hunting and frantic on returning from work to realize no one knows where my minor child is.

3. Oldest sibling-spokesperson pulled my date aside to tell him how awful I (supposedly) am and how they're all desperate and he's the only one who can 'reach' me. Yep, they can't stand to think that anyone might actually think well of me. In truth, however, he was appalled. He said he felt physically sick that anyone would do this at all, let alone at their nephew's wedding, against the mother of the groom.

The point being, I do live my own life. I have not expected them to be any different. But there are going to be more weddings, baptisms, etc. They have already convinced several of my kids that I am imagining things. I have told one son in particular some very direct, concrete things--such as being thrown on a bed and choked--and they have him convinced that 'I'm sure you THINK those things happened, Mom....'

Sorry...frustrating weekend.

Mostly, I do really well at accepting they aren't going to change. I wouldn't care if it weren't for the influence they're having on my kids, who see me saying one thing and two dozen other people all saying the opposite. To them, the numbers prove something.

EveningRose

Thanks, Feeling Great. I don't attach much importance to her words to him--as far as any impact they had on him. He was (as I said in the last post) appalled and came away believing my family is far more toxic than even I realize. He was actually cracking jokes at her expense (she explained to him that they NEVER talk about me and I'm crazy, thinking they talk about me--while clearly taking the very first chance she got to talk about me and nothing else). The disturbing aspect is the realization that they WILL take every chance they can to pollute any relationship I ever have--she'd barely introduced herself to BF before she was off and running with the family's concerns about my problems.

Second, I don't attach much concern, because as someone somewhere said--it's a great filter. Any guy who believes their garbage, I know is not worth MY while.

But you're right as to there being a bigger issue. She has had a rage problem for 30 years or more--heck, she's the adult child of an alcoholic just as much as I am. She went into multiple rages, on top of years of, frankly, just treating me like crap. I drew the line. I told her I wouldn't be back for any more holidays until something changed. She gave me an apology in the form of, "I'm sorry, but my rages are really your fault."

My dad backed her up in multiple ways, made it very clear that in the family's eyes I am the screw up who needs to be fixed, who can always be looked down on, blamed, etc. [You know the four roles of the adult children of alcoholics? Me and my siblings fall very neatly into them, and I am definitely the scapegoat. Supposedly, I even caused my parents' marriage problems, and they had NOTHING to do with his drinking and hitting her and ripping phones out of the walls.]

Yes, it's true she probably doesn't know about his latest voicemails, e-mails with threats and calling me vulgar names, phone calls, and snail mail letters (after I blocked every other form of communication) over the last 6 years. But it's also without a doubt true that none of that would change her mind about anything at all.

If she acknowledged that, she might have to face her own 30 years and more of melt downs and rages, and it's easier to keep blaming me. It's working well for everyone in the family.

Wow, have the flood gates opened tonight or what?

Lest it come across any differently, you are all saying exactly what I knew before I posted the original post, and what I simply needed to hear, and needed confirmed, before I wasted my energy actually trying to talk to these people.

Kialua

But if your own children are believing the lies, then it does matter to you. I would move so far away just to get my kids away from my foo. Don't care if I would have to go on welfare, just to be away from them would be worth it. I had NO contact for my kids with my foo. None. I was temped exactly once at a wedding and it didn't work so I never even entertained the thought of my kids being with foo. Through the years they would ask my why we didn't see them and I always hedged my answers, never fully explained, never blamed foo, but just redirected. Now that they are grown up they can see my foo for what they are and have thanked me, and understand why I kept them from any relationships with my them. Entirely worth it.

CelticZebra

Nope, nada, none.
I don't know how to eradicate them entirely but smaller doses are generally better.
As far as family gatherings go this Christmas will be the first time that I don't have to be there and I'm feeling guilty about being able to relax at home with my family of 4 years, my husband won't have to be polite and most importantly we and our already traumatised children won't be subjected to the uncontrollable emotional toxicity of these people who are draining on my life force with their sheer selfishness and blinkered tunnel vision that are too scared to look at themselves for the truth.
I clearly have more to learn about these techniques and how to minimise further damage to an already fragile situation here at home.
And myself and my husband who no longer drink alcohol won't have to be around my father and his drinking or my mother who I believe has serious neuroticism as a result of staying with him. My 2 siblings (both younger) apparently don't have those same memories that I do, especially my younger sister (only 2 years) who was protected by myself and I think has blocked a lot of stuff but she also has had the distance that I was never allowed as the 1st born and the clear disappointment I turned out to be, to this day and the stalking.... Counselling, therapy, wish I had good news. Toxic poison.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, it has truly resonated and we now avoid family gatherings due to other commitments, clearly you were in no position to avoid this occasion and I'm saddened that this happened but glad you are aware however hard it is.

Thank you

Driving my wagon of hope through beautiful views on my road to myself