stevieg46

Hi Gamer like you I don't want to get into anything either , I respect others point of view because everybody has one take care .

Regards Stevie

Sioux

I keep reading the word "suffer." I don't "suffer" anymore - not you, not me, not it, or them, rats, booze, benzos, withdarwal, car payments, concepts, mexican food. None of those things are the same, all of them affect me differently.

Right now I am doing my annual check in here while attempting to cook Quinoa.

I get how to say "Quinoa," but struggle with the spelling.

Cooking the stuff is frustrating - I want it to be like the professional Quinoa cookers make it - fluffy! I am following the directions, and it is not looking very promising, but I am not suffering.

I am contemplating. My next move. And I am grateful. Not to be suffering anymore.

Dee74

OT:

Rice cookers seem to do Quinoa a treat.

Chef Boyar-Dee

D

fini

i just turn the stove off when there's a bit of water left on the bottom of the pot. put the lid on and go away.
when i come back later, it's fluff!

TheGamer

Off-topic much?
<_______________<

In regards to the new evidence this study provides us, it amazes me how much people in the recovery business want to go about their business eyes wide shut, yet say they want to help others. What is 'help', is it forcing someone to go to rehab? Or is it providing that person with the ability to go to rehab if they decide? At what point do we say that the damage they're doing to themselves outweighs the damage they're doing to others, and visa versa? It'll be different in all cases. But Alcoholism, addiction, to say it is a disease is like saying eating is a disease. "If I don't eat I'll die, and it's beyond my control." I mean come ooooooooooon.

I only received help after I was able to get help the new way, as all the doctors I saw previously just looked at me like some stupid junky who has to cut it cold turkey, saying "You'll be fine in 3 to 5 days, now get out of my office." Yeah, if only.

So back to the OP's video, I agree, everything we were told about addiction for the last 100 years or so has been nothing but hysteria and cultural influence trending toward big business recovery and the infinite relapse.

stevieg46

Hi Gamer .
Science/ Medicine have been looking for new evidence for a very very long time with very little success , most of the studies they have done on alcoholics/addicts have taught them very little ,one of the reasons I believe is that individually and collectively ( where these agencies compile their findings ) alcoholics/addicts are very unpredictable and unreliable , we say one thing and do another , we make promises and break them , we don't keep our word . most are habitual liars .

One of my favorite singers ''Kris Kristorfesson '' puts it very well '' he's a walking contradiction for the truth and for the fiction , the going up is worse than coming down and there's a lot of wrong directions on that lonely way back home '' .

Big business in recovery earn lots of money , look at the ''Betty Ford '' clinic got sober in AA and broke anonymity and earned fortunes out of other peoples misery .

Disease ? yes I firmly believe that,'' especially'', alcoholism .
Not too long ago the World Health Organization ( W H O ) stated that alcoholism is on of the major killer diseases in the world , I cant argue with that.

Just now in Scotland UK , about 55-60 % of hospital patients is alcohol related , ambulance call outs at weekends ? about 70% alcohol related , I believe that not only alcohol but also drugs make up these figures it, is a massive problem , call it what you like disease/illness/habit ? but one thing for sure it is not normal and sadly its becoming' ''acceptable '' take care ( stevieg46 another forum ? ).
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
if a man hears a different drummer ? let him march to the music he hears

TheGamer

I don't think anything you said was true. I'm sorry but what medical journal were you reading the behaviors of alcoholics from? If "Science/Medicine" don't fully understand alcoholism, why can we say that we know it's because of how they act - with certainty and without evidence - when that's the same kind of rationale that "Science/Medicine" uses when they justify anything that cannot be justified. "We see it all the time." Yet they can't point to its observation by others in even a sociologist newsletter let alone scientific and medical journals that Doctors and Chemists are going to read.

As an academic, I had to learn quickly how to separate conjecture and hearsay from trial based observation using significant and/or an appropriate set of data.

You're right about a couple things, we don't understand the actual reasons people are the way they are because of the influence of alcohol over short/medium/long/indefinite periods of time has not been reflected in Academia the same way that a medication like Penicillin, which was a drug society needed to overcome certain barriers and even then, we didn't realize that we were laying the foundation for what are now known as super-parasites, highly resistent to Penicillin; evolved forms of parasites that have learned to overcome the medication.

That's just a simple example.

So from what I gather you're saying is, 'Science/Medicine' have tried for a long time with little success to define 'alcoholism/addiction'. You're stating that you believe the reason for this lack of success is that it hasn't considered what you think, that 'alcoholics/addicts are very unpredictable and reliable', they 'say one thing and do another , we make promises and break them , we don't keep our word . most are habitual liars .'. Was this the successful part of the study? I don't understand. I thought the studies were largely not successful, and without a large data set, how can we be sure the limited 'successful' data we have is accurate and not conjecture/slander?

A contraversial approach to the problem you address is the idea that because of our inability to effectively study the effects of alcohol, narcotics or otherwise, we've been left with a very skewed view of the way those chemicals affect people subjected to a wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds and differences. It would be like observing sugar at 1 degree Celsius and then saying that the properties you observed are going to be the same no matter for all molecules of sugar no matter which temperature you change it to.

Most people caught in the cycle of poverty or in the cycle of chemical dependency are not stuck because of one thing. This is not a magic bullet scenario. When individuals overcome their chemical dependencies, they find that the problems that led to it in the first place are likely still an issue for them unless they had addressed it before consciously or not. Additionally, the amount of resources available to a person can shift the perspective of someone who has no support base, no family, no home or job and shift this with someone who has a rich family that cares very deeply about their problem and will always provide them with shelter if they need it.

You've offered nothing but conjecture and slander to provide evidence of what you consider 'alcoholics/addicts' from the 'Scientific/Medical' viewpoint. I've presented my knowledge of fact based studies that don't push for results where they cannot be found and they do not make assumptions about why something is happening based on factors unrelated to the person they are dealing with.

Basically, you're wrong, but, hey the national theme lately has been 'you can be right even if you're wrong' so hey, whatever, right?

I've been clean over 2 years and everything you said kind of felt like it was part of the reason that most people cannot get clean; because others have such an unrealistic view of them, that theyre such unreliable scumbags that cannot be trusted and giving them a chance spells certain death. It took someone giving me a chance to get the help I wanted, and since then I've been clean.

Aint no compe-tish, but, I'm sure you're gonna tell me why I'm less of a recovered person than you, or someone is. Someone will.

Edit: Also a Singer is not a social scientist nor is credible in making 'Science/Medical' statements the way you describe them. So whoever this Kristopherson is, he's just expressing himself, maaaaaan. He'd tell you it's all about self-interpretation anyways.

LadyBlue0527

I can't thank you enough for bringing this thread back. You just handed me the greatest Christmas gift I could receive. You solidified that something I have spending time on for the past 1 1/2 months is on point.

At first when I saw the thread title my skin crawled. Typically, for an addict/alcoholic/anyone who has a problem with substances the first thought with the visual of that title is "Oh goodie, another thing I can look at that will give me the reason behind my problem so I can go back there". However, I was pleasantly surprised that this was not the case. Rather, it was an insight to a possibility as to how we got where we are today. Nothing is going to change where we are and we're doing the right thing. The basis of his theory is exactly why I've been working on what I have these days.

I've been on this board for a while. I initially joined years back and I think I posted a few times but walked away. I wasn't ready. Then, I came here in May 2013 dedicated and committed to quitting. I was searching for a sense of community. A place where I could go where people would understand. Also, where I didn't have to sit in a group of people and share. What I do here is up to me. I can just read, or I can choose to reply if I think I have something worthwhile to contribute. I also knew if I needed help I could come here. This board saved me many times. Then, after about the year mark I started becoming complacent. I felt I had this thing called sobriety and no longer needed help. I walked away from my meetings and every sober tool I had gathered. I was good. That worked for a while until I got to the point where I felt I was merely existing. So, what did I do? I began to seek out my old friends. They were supportive of my sobriety but also didn't care if I made the choice to drink and boy, did I know that. So, it was easy to slip back into my old ways and made myself believe I could moderate. Just like most, I ended up at the next rock bottom that led me back here and this time I am done.

I began to really think about why, after almost 18 months of goodness and knowing how things turn around would I ever have allowed this to happen? Sure, I walked away from my sober tools and meetings which was a large part. However, that really wasn't all of it. A big piece was that I failed to did what I needed to do to build a new network. Sober people who wanted to do things. I'll probably get ribbed a bit for saying this but I needed to build a sober, social network of people outside of AA. Not that I can't hang with friends in AA, they are family. But, there's a phenomena that happens when you meet people a certain way. Just like when drinking you attended a happy hour with work buddies. What is the conversation usually about? Work. It doesn't always start that way but, it will eventually lead there. The same falls true when you meet people in AA or SMART, or any other program. The conversation will eventually become about the aspects of the program. I am not putting this down. What I'm saying is I realized that I needed to find a place where I could build a sober network of people to do things with that just allowed me to be me. Sober me. Quiet strength in being with other sober people but not to discuss addiction. If it comes up ok, sure. So, I began my search in my area for something like this. Where I could find specific things to do like yoga, meditation, etc I could find nothing that included any sober person regardless of addiction of choice or what groups that were being attended to gather and meet and come up with interesting and fun things to do. Creating a sober, social network with one bond, addiction. A place to create sober connections.

I watched this video and am ecstatic that I am embarking on a journey to provide these connections in my area. I'm hoping that this will benefit not only those who are happy and active in recovery but will also lead those who are painfully shy to come and just sit and observe. There are no requirements to attend other than the search for staying sober and being happy about it. My initial efforts are beginning to take off just within something I did in the past 4 days.

Really excited now. Thank you again for posting this. I think I'm on to something and I think it's going to be really good.

soberlicious

I love the premise behind the talk..but there are some big holes for me. There are loads of people with good connected family lives, who love their jobs and their children and spouses, who find themselves addicted to various substances. I can't buy that it is always about a lack of connection with others, because there is too much evidence to the contrary.

I have always been fascinated by the Vietnam/heroin studies. It's true many who used for long periods came home and quit. My father did not do heroin, but my mom reports that upon return from a few tours in Vietnam, he was very mentally unstable (rightly so, considering what he saw and what he did in the name of serving) and was an extremely heavy drinker for some years, and then he wasn't. He went on to have an occasional beer for the rest of his life. So, addiction didn't become a lifelong problem for him, but having fought and killed in Vietnam is something parts of your soul will never recover from, so there's that.

I think the point that really is challenging for me to accept about the video is that we should always extend love to addicts, and that that is the missing piece and what we're doing wrong and what's perpetuating the cycle of addiction. I love the kumbaya-feel-good message that the opposite of "addiction is connection", but anyone who has loved and lived with an addict knows that there are times you simply cannot say "I will come sit with you, not matter if you're using or not, I'm there for you." When an addicted person is violent, steals from you, neglects their children or otherwise puts them in harms way, asks for money, creates responsibilities for you that require you to compromise your own well-being or that of your immediate family...it is not as simply as "I am here for you" and then you love and connect and they become well. I would have fixed my sister by now if that were true, but instead she is dying of cirrhosis despite loving family and connection in the world that she threw away to addiction.

So, it's lovely...the talk, but not a buy-in for me.

Algorithm

This is precisely why the liquor industry absolutely loves the recovery group movement, and the disease concept of alcoholism. Blame the drinker, or the disease, but never, ever, the drug itself, and certainly not all the advertising for the drug. Partners in crime since the failure of prohibition.

If the tobacco industry had only invested in research into 'the disease of nicotinism', of which smoking cigarettes is 'but a symptom', and funded a recovery group movement and treatment industry to combat the disease of nicotinism, they wouldn't have been sued repeatedly, or had limits placed on advertisements.

I wonder if the fledgling marijuana industry will learn from big tobacco's biggest mistake, and mimic big alcohol instead...

LadyBlue0527

I think I interpreted the portion about extending love a bit differently. If there were no such thing as alcohol or drugs our jails would be bare. The approach to addiction is the war on drugs. We're treating the cause but not the underlying symptom. As far as extending love to an addict, I know what my husband went through enough to know he'd laugh wildly at the statement. So when I heard the response I didn't take it at as a face value one on one statement but as an overall. A bird's eye view.

Maybe I identify a lot with the video because my relapse was 100% based on, of course, my wanting to drink, but also, my failure to fill my life with others who think the same way. I hung with the same friends, same story.

soberlicious

I drank again after 10 years of happy abstinence. During that 10 years I had fallen in love, gotten married, started my career, and had children. I hung with none of the same people. I decided one day I could drink normally and that's all there was to it. Within 2 weeks I was a daily drinker again and being a SAHM at the time I would often start around noonish. I binged daily for 7 more years until the wheels came completely off and I landed up in the psych ward after a suicide attempt. I can't say that the old lifestyle was what caused my reversal of intent and subsequent almost fatal addiction(s), so I just don't know that answer to this....but it can't be just about environment because so many of us "had it all"...

and yes, our jails are full of crimes related to alcohol and drugs, and I'm not advocating "punishing addicts" per se, but when one breaks the law (like my dear friend who robbed the 7-11, high on crack, to get money to buy more crack) those crimes must be punished regardless. When someone beats their spouse, who would not normally be violent were it not for drug/alcohol use and abuse, should they not be punished? When someone leaves their children alone because they are on a binge for days...when people drink and drive...when people break the law because they use, knowing full well where it can (and usually does) lead, where does the criminal culpability begin and end and with whom?

I did a lot of super sh*tty things as a drinker-illegal at worse, immoral at best, not only to those I love, but to those I am responsible to in the bigger picture as a part of society and of human kind. Yes, I believe we all deserve compassion as livings beings and I believe in connectedness, but I don't believe that respect is something we all just have as a basic right of being born. Extending a hand when possible is always my first choice, but there are times that is not possible.

LadyBlue0527

I'm reading your last post and wondering if you and I watched the same video clip?

I'm in agreement with much of what you just posted which is why I question. I don't recall anywhere in that clip where he said that those who are addicted deserve respect nor does it ever say that we are not culpable for our actions due to our addiction. Nor do I think that anywhere in his words are the implication that if an addict is abusing someone or performing heinous acts should they be rewarded, and excused.

What I got out of it was the quest for understanding the basis of addiction and the addict themselves. Through his study he found much of the core basis being isolation and non connectedness. Which is interesting because I look at this portion of your post:

First and foremost, my heart goes out to you in going through that and I am so glad you made it back. You had been sober for 10 years and happy about it. Then why drink? Where was the need? What was it that you were looking for by picking up again? If you were happy why would it even matter if you could drink normally again? There had to be more to that thought process than a fleeting, momentary "I haven't had a drink in 10 years, I should go ahead and have one". Maybe that's exactly what happened but we all pick up a drink for a reason, even normies. Otherwise we'd just pick up a soda, a cup of coffee, or water. We are seeking something missing within us in that drink. Especially if we've been sober for some time. A person who has never had a problem with alcohol having a drink? Not a problem. A person who has had a prior problem who has been sober making that same decision? Something far more than "I think I can drink normally again" is going on.

You were a SAHM and you would start at noon. Could it be that there was some boredom and disconnectedness there? Did you feel isolated from people?

That's the core basis of his video. Remove the connectedness and bonds that we seek as human beings and the possibility and probability of use will increase. That's the entire video in a nutshell.

In finality too, there isn't anything in life that's "all or nothing". I have friends who come from alcoholic families that loathe alcohol. Never even touched a drop. I have friends who come from families where there was very limited use. I don't think I ever saw my mother put a glass of alcohol to her lips. My father's usage was limited to a few beers at a wedding or an event, or when he was working on the camp and that was it. Yet, here I am. So, I don't see lack of bonds or being disconnected as the whole basis for addiction but I think he's definitely onto something. In fact, I am in the process of reading his book and am in direct contact with him due to that clip.

There's much discussion as to whether addiction is a choice or a disease. I have no stance on the matter. What I do know is whenever I picked up a drink it wasn't just because I wanted to drink, there was always a reason. Whether it was because I have a disease or whether I am choosing to drink doesn't matter.

I do know that when I filled my life with things to do that would make me complete I needed it far less. Even when I was actively drinking. So I definitely see merit in his message.

soberlicious

Um...no boredom. I had triplets. If anyone has ever cared for three infants at once, boredom is never a factor. I did feel somewhat disconnected from adults during that time period, but I have since felt that way in the last ten years (during which I've been happily abstinent again) and it hasn't driven me to drink.

I just decided that I could drink normally...that I had gotten my sh*t together and in fact, did not hang with the old crowd, so no danger there of being the "old me" so I told myself. Once I began drinking again, I quickly became re-addicted (no surprise there) and loved the buzz so hard that of course I began to pursue it all costs, and of course had no control once drinking (again, no surprise there). I know people like to believe that there is something more magical to their relapses, something deep, something highly emotionally charged, something somehow beautifully tragic, but it's not true for all of us. That's all I'm saying. Of course, with heavy, daily alcohol use came lots of problems...depression, anxiety, marital strife, strained relationships, physical problems. I know that popular belief is that one's brokenness causes them to drink. For me, the contrary is true. My drinking caused my brokenness.

and yes, we watched the same video. I agree with many of his points, in fact I quoted where he said "I will sit with you, no matter if you are using or not, I will be there for you." There are many, many ,many times and instances where that is not advisable.

I believe in love. I believe in connectedness. I think that all we do and say has much farther-reaching implications than most of us ever realize. I've seen love heal and I've seen compassion change hearts, so I'm not against his message at all.

I simply sigh and wish it were that easy.

LadyBlue0527

HEAR HEAR!

I'm glad that we're both here and glad that we are where we are in all of this. It takes a lot of pain to get here. I'm grateful for you today soberlicious, I love a good, adult, conversation and you gave me brain food by having this discussion.

soberlicious

Backatcha, Lady. xo

sortofhomecomin

Those interested in this topic may also wish to view Johann Hari's debate with Peter Hitchens which is on youtube (I can't post links yet as my post count isn't high enough).

january161992

the speaker is just another arrogant knucklehead who believes what he is saying is true and correct for everyone

hes wrong

like we people are all the same

almost everything he said is incorrect for me

LadyBlue0527

So, this makes me curious. Since what he said doesn't apply to you at all that means he's wrong? So that also means what he says applies to no one?

january161992

we people are all very different

most of what he said does not apply to me

it probably is true for some

i never drank in bars unlike most alcoholics
i never drank for fun or at parties unlike most alcoholics

it means listen for the similarities not the differences

what works for me may not work for others