About warning signs
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About warning signs
I've been pondering this since halfway through the first cup of coffee this morning. It appears to me that while many of the warning signs and steps of progression remain the same, they don't always happen in the same order, definitely. Severity varies, and some you all have posted here I have not seen at all. One in particular I haven't really seen mentioned here yet, it's not one exhibited by my AH, but my AB, and it has really thrown my family for a loop: stealing
To explain, by family I mean my parents, and by proxy my sister and I. Brother's own family was horribly affected, he is divorced and his young daughter refuses to see him. No one in my family realized he was an alcoholic literally until his marriage was over and he had 'temporarily' moved into my parents basement. That was several years ago, his stuff is still down there, and he would be too if he had not managed to find yet another unassuming young lady to charm. Don't know how since he can't hold a job or keep a working vehicle, but apparently he is a master. He's definitely an incredible manipulator. He also happens to be the most mind-bogglingly efficient thief I have ever seen, Hollywood could get some lessons from this guy. Ironically, AH can't stand him, mainly because AB has stolen from us also. He has returned his own child's Christmas presents for cash.
No one in our family will have anything to do with him at this point, except mom. It would appear to most that she is very codependent, but the trick there is that a few years ago she nearly died of a brain infection, and since then is compromised often in perceptions and understanding. He uses this as an advantage, of course. Dad has barely been able to bring himself to go in the house for years, and has tried to toss my brother out many times but mom always smooths it over or sometimes outright ignores dad. AH refuses to take part in any family activities if my brother will be involved. I once thought this was a sign of solidarity, but now I'm inclined to believe it's more a worry that standing next to each other might make people take a closer look at AH's own behavior.
That all being said, has anyone else experiences with thievery like this? I am talking everything from loose change to his ex's jewelry (and mine), precious family heirlooms, pawning children's game systems, stealing DVD's, books. If it isn't nailed down, it's fair game, and even if it is nailed down there's no guarantees. To clarify, I am NOT asking in order to step in on their business or my brother's, they know my take on that, but instead must consider the now very clear possibility that AH may shift to such behavior here eventually. Methinks I hear a safety deposit box calling.
To explain, by family I mean my parents, and by proxy my sister and I. Brother's own family was horribly affected, he is divorced and his young daughter refuses to see him. No one in my family realized he was an alcoholic literally until his marriage was over and he had 'temporarily' moved into my parents basement. That was several years ago, his stuff is still down there, and he would be too if he had not managed to find yet another unassuming young lady to charm. Don't know how since he can't hold a job or keep a working vehicle, but apparently he is a master. He's definitely an incredible manipulator. He also happens to be the most mind-bogglingly efficient thief I have ever seen, Hollywood could get some lessons from this guy. Ironically, AH can't stand him, mainly because AB has stolen from us also. He has returned his own child's Christmas presents for cash.
No one in our family will have anything to do with him at this point, except mom. It would appear to most that she is very codependent, but the trick there is that a few years ago she nearly died of a brain infection, and since then is compromised often in perceptions and understanding. He uses this as an advantage, of course. Dad has barely been able to bring himself to go in the house for years, and has tried to toss my brother out many times but mom always smooths it over or sometimes outright ignores dad. AH refuses to take part in any family activities if my brother will be involved. I once thought this was a sign of solidarity, but now I'm inclined to believe it's more a worry that standing next to each other might make people take a closer look at AH's own behavior.
That all being said, has anyone else experiences with thievery like this? I am talking everything from loose change to his ex's jewelry (and mine), precious family heirlooms, pawning children's game systems, stealing DVD's, books. If it isn't nailed down, it's fair game, and even if it is nailed down there's no guarantees. To clarify, I am NOT asking in order to step in on their business or my brother's, they know my take on that, but instead must consider the now very clear possibility that AH may shift to such behavior here eventually. Methinks I hear a safety deposit box calling.
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I've seen theft mentioned many, many time through the threads. One of the common responses I've also seen is that this is a character defect not necessesarily related to alcohol, but certainly exaserbated by it. Take an alcoholic horse thief and remove the alcohol and you still have a horse thief. Keep reading. You will find many who share that common denominator
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I haven't heard of stealing in the Alcoholic as much as the Substance Abuse forum, and maybe that reflects the relative cheapness of alcohol, or the fact that it's legal.
Your brother sounds like an extreme version, and a really horrible person. If he has a job I wonder why he's a compulsive thief? Is it just for money to buy alcohol?
If your AH is cut off from money he might resort to stealing, but it doesn't seem to be inherent in his nature like it is with your AB.
Your brother sounds like an extreme version, and a really horrible person. If he has a job I wonder why he's a compulsive thief? Is it just for money to buy alcohol?
If your AH is cut off from money he might resort to stealing, but it doesn't seem to be inherent in his nature like it is with your AB.
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When AB met his now ex wife, he had steady work, a nice car, a home, and normally had a good attitude toward life's general problems. After the marriage, the job was gone, car, home, attitude, he's pounding alcohol and slowly the realization that he was a thief dawned on us. He stole from everyone for years before we caught on.
For a while, we were left to assume some kind of terrible dynamic in their marriage was at the root of this. However, it has become obvious over time that she was just as shocked as we were by his changes. She is actually a wonderful lady and to this day would like to see him straighten himself out. There have been talks in the past of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Does alcohol lead to his thievery, or vice versa? That's the question family is still asking themselves, it doesn't matter how or why but what if anything he does about it. He certainly seems happy enough to continue as they are, if not exuberant about it. Ultimately, the cycle remains unbroken. Intervention only led to an incredible drinking binge and severed ties with everyone but Mom. I only ever hear from him when he has a new girlfriend and wishes to show her how unloved he is when I don't answer.
AH has zero tolerance for AB's thievery, especially since it has involved children. Then again, current law of the land around here is if there is alcohol to be found anywhere anytime by AH, it's probably going to become his. Already there is financial strain in my own family. Outright stealing of money and such has not occurred per se, but certain bills have been neglected because of it and once our grocery bill suffered mightily. Toast, cereal and ramen for two weeks. I recognize this is a fear I have, comparing two things that are similar but not the same. Maybe it's time I put down the coffee mug and lay out the yoga mat.
For a while, we were left to assume some kind of terrible dynamic in their marriage was at the root of this. However, it has become obvious over time that she was just as shocked as we were by his changes. She is actually a wonderful lady and to this day would like to see him straighten himself out. There have been talks in the past of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Does alcohol lead to his thievery, or vice versa? That's the question family is still asking themselves, it doesn't matter how or why but what if anything he does about it. He certainly seems happy enough to continue as they are, if not exuberant about it. Ultimately, the cycle remains unbroken. Intervention only led to an incredible drinking binge and severed ties with everyone but Mom. I only ever hear from him when he has a new girlfriend and wishes to show her how unloved he is when I don't answer.
AH has zero tolerance for AB's thievery, especially since it has involved children. Then again, current law of the land around here is if there is alcohol to be found anywhere anytime by AH, it's probably going to become his. Already there is financial strain in my own family. Outright stealing of money and such has not occurred per se, but certain bills have been neglected because of it and once our grocery bill suffered mightily. Toast, cereal and ramen for two weeks. I recognize this is a fear I have, comparing two things that are similar but not the same. Maybe it's time I put down the coffee mug and lay out the yoga mat.
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Originally Posted by InfoSponge 
Outright stealing of money and such has not occurred per se, but certain bills have been neglected because of it and once our grocery bill suffered mightily. Toast, cereal and ramen for two weeks. I recognize this is a fear I have, comparing two things that are similar but not the same. Maybe it's time I put down the coffee mug and lay out the yoga mat.
You generally know what bills will be arriving throughout the year, like insurance, utilities etc. It's possible to set up deductions to automatically take care of these bills every week, month or whenever the money comes in. Is your AH open to negotiation on this front, especially if you appeal on behalf of the children? It's essential that if you work out a plan with him you do it when he's sober.
There are also many other steps you can take to gain more control financially, so give it some thought and try to work out a plan so you can do what's possible in your situation.
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Outright stealing of money and such has not occurred per se, but certain bills have been neglected because of it and once our grocery bill suffered mightily. Toast, cereal and ramen for two weeks. I recognize this is a fear I have, comparing two things that are similar but not the same
his alcohol consumption and spending TOOK $$ that had other uses......that wasted money stole food off the table.
if you have not yet, now is the time to get actively involved in the finances and clamp down on the money drain. move funds out of harms way. deal with your here and now.
his alcohol consumption and spending TOOK $$ that had other uses......that wasted money stole food off the table.
if you have not yet, now is the time to get actively involved in the finances and clamp down on the money drain. move funds out of harms way. deal with your here and now.
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There has been some progress with regaining some financial over time, yes. Groceries especially. He really, REALLY dislikes my having a job, but guess who has one anyway. I control all of that income, which at first he only made fun of, but the more it becomes clear I'm making enough to do all the things I have planned things are getting very awkward. I think it may be dawning on him that for all of his negative attitude regarding my ability to work, I'm just as capable as I said I was all along. I'm setting aside, bit by bit. I have started collecting Christmas gifts for my girls, just to be certain its taken care of. I paid for the repairs on my own car. He says he is proud, and maybe he is, but he's also definitely very nervous. It's a start.
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Anvilhead, you're echoing what I've been thinking for ages. It's something I've pointed out several times. The answer is always that "we" will have alcohol no matter what. How encouraging, and interesting that somehow he views the alcohol as a "we" situation. I could not care less if I never saw the stuff again. True to form, when the groceries incident occurred, somehow "we" magically always had beer.
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might be time to quit trying to TALK him into SEEING reason, or put much stock in what HE says, or how he continues to try and make this a "we" thing? you both have completely separate agendas.......priorities. in fact he has a very short agenda......with a single bullet point:
*DRINKING
i'm glad you are working around that and getting things in order and under control. there may come a day when he is simply irrelevant.
*DRINKING
i'm glad you are working around that and getting things in order and under control. there may come a day when he is simply irrelevant.
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Very true. I know I still have a long way to go, but have also come a long way. I no longer follow him around like a lost puppy, begging him to see reason, pleading for AA or anything through which he can seek help. It was a waste of time and energy. He knows how I feel, and has all the tools at his disposal if he so chooses to use them. My job in that respect is done. Now on with the taking care of me and mine.
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InfoSponge, experiencing a progression & escalation of bad behavior here including theft.
But when you said 'incredible manipulator' and did things like leave his stuff at family's house for years now and seems to be able to con women without a job you just described the half century old man here. It's a pretty safe bet there is something besides alcohol. Here it's steroids, alcohol, some pot and other misc drugs. Along with gambling and lifestyle addiction-expensive taste and feels entitled to the best, no generics or substitutes. And there is family politics here as well.
We're already at the point of unable to leave cash, credit or gift cards around, especially in a lose manner. They test you, you give an inch they take a mile, give two inches they take 10 miles.
I think they think(frequently accurately so) that family won't prosecute or miss certain things. Here if you don't keep after him for loaning something as simple as pen, cup, tool, calculator etc he will not make any effort to give it back. The funny thing staunch supporters of him now realize if you loan him something assume you will not get it back.
And sadly as many have pointed out the behavior is not all alcohol or drugs. They might have poor impulse control from the substances but they are the ones that had those thoughts and gave into those unethical or criminal urges. The urge was already there. Here he always tries to beat or game the system ANY way he can wether it's a short cut driving or nickel and diming you to death.
Good Luck
But when you said 'incredible manipulator' and did things like leave his stuff at family's house for years now and seems to be able to con women without a job you just described the half century old man here. It's a pretty safe bet there is something besides alcohol. Here it's steroids, alcohol, some pot and other misc drugs. Along with gambling and lifestyle addiction-expensive taste and feels entitled to the best, no generics or substitutes. And there is family politics here as well.
We're already at the point of unable to leave cash, credit or gift cards around, especially in a lose manner. They test you, you give an inch they take a mile, give two inches they take 10 miles.
I think they think(frequently accurately so) that family won't prosecute or miss certain things. Here if you don't keep after him for loaning something as simple as pen, cup, tool, calculator etc he will not make any effort to give it back. The funny thing staunch supporters of him now realize if you loan him something assume you will not get it back.
And sadly as many have pointed out the behavior is not all alcohol or drugs. They might have poor impulse control from the substances but they are the ones that had those thoughts and gave into those unethical or criminal urges. The urge was already there. Here he always tries to beat or game the system ANY way he can wether it's a short cut driving or nickel and diming you to death.
Good Luck
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