Why isn't LifeRing, RR, SMART etc "taught" more in rehab centers?
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Here again it would seem that your assumptions are shaping your beliefs. Faith does not figure into this discussion. The discussion is about a specific piece of writing, 'we agnostics'. I could be an atheist and you a devout christian. This would not change the substance of the discussion. It's independent of our beliefs.
If you meant to imply that my arguments come from a position of faith, you would also be mistaken. It comes from a place far more certain than that. The back story for this is in the original post of this thread. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...xperience.html
Athiest/agnostic? Been there done that. But no belief can change without the willingness to change that belief in light of new data.
If you meant to imply that my arguments come from a position of faith, you would also be mistaken. It comes from a place far more certain than that. The back story for this is in the original post of this thread. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...xperience.html
Athiest/agnostic? Been there done that. But no belief can change without the willingness to change that belief in light of new data.
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Originally Posted by awuh1 
Here again it would seem that your assumptions are shaping your beliefs. Faith does not figure into this discussion. The discussion is about a specific piece of writing, 'we agnostics'. I could be an atheist and you a devout christian. This would not change the substance of the discussion. It's independent of our beliefs. If you meant to imply that my arguments come from a position of faith, you would also be mistaken. It comes from a place far more certain than that. The back story for this is in the original post of this thread. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...xperience.html Athiest/agnostic? Been there done that. But no belief can change without the willingness to change that belief in light of new data.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Thanks for that shockozulu . I agree with you wholeheartedly. It would be best if court ordered people could have the same choice of recovery program that anyone else in their area has.
I think it's unfortunate that many are put off by the frequent references to God/Higher Power in AA, and subsequently don't take a closer look at the nearly unlimited ways that these words can and are interpreted (correctly) by various people in AA. Some people seem to never get past the idea that AA has an agenda to "convert" them to something.
That being said, AA is most certainly not for everyone. Just because AA is so widely available does not mean it should be the only court ordered option permitted when other, (SMART or Women for Sobriety meetings for example) can also be used.
Congrats on the 5 years shock.
I think it's unfortunate that many are put off by the frequent references to God/Higher Power in AA, and subsequently don't take a closer look at the nearly unlimited ways that these words can and are interpreted (correctly) by various people in AA. Some people seem to never get past the idea that AA has an agenda to "convert" them to something.
That being said, AA is most certainly not for everyone. Just because AA is so widely available does not mean it should be the only court ordered option permitted when other, (SMART or Women for Sobriety meetings for example) can also be used.
Congrats on the 5 years shock.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by awuh1
If you meant to imply that my arguments come from a position of faith, you would also be mistaken. It comes from a place far more certain than that.
Giving up is NOT an option.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 7,808
Originally Posted by murrill
As a newcomer to AA many years ago I was at odds with the Higher Power issues. Talk of churches, Bibles, religion, etc left me angry and frustrated. I hoped to find respite in "We Agnostics," but my take was similar to what zerothehero described: It seemed to say, "You're going to have to go along with this God-thing if you want what we have." Its purpose, it seemed, was to close any loopholes the atheists and agnostics might propose.
I have remained sober for many years as the result of AA and some other good supports. Ironically, I arrived at the fellowship steeped in a Protestant upbringing that I believed had failed me, but it was AA's spiritual orientation that gave me space to become comfortable as a non-theist.
Somehow, through no brilliance of my own, I adapted the language; I came to understand spirituality as an adjustment in my relationship with the universe: I am an essential cog, neither too large nor too small. I am spiritually healthy when I am "right sized." It is an over-simplification, I guess, but instead of an interventionist deity who demands adherence to rigid dogma, I find comfort in a universal wisdom.
The difference, as I see it, is a shift in my relationship with the universe, with the size of my ego. Honestly, I have sometimes envied the God-HP crowd: It seems it would be so much simpler to go with the commercially acceptable versions. But that just does not work for me.
Sorry if I've rambled.
I have remained sober for many years as the result of AA and some other good supports. Ironically, I arrived at the fellowship steeped in a Protestant upbringing that I believed had failed me, but it was AA's spiritual orientation that gave me space to become comfortable as a non-theist.
Somehow, through no brilliance of my own, I adapted the language; I came to understand spirituality as an adjustment in my relationship with the universe: I am an essential cog, neither too large nor too small. I am spiritually healthy when I am "right sized." It is an over-simplification, I guess, but instead of an interventionist deity who demands adherence to rigid dogma, I find comfort in a universal wisdom.
The difference, as I see it, is a shift in my relationship with the universe, with the size of my ego. Honestly, I have sometimes envied the God-HP crowd: It seems it would be so much simpler to go with the commercially acceptable versions. But that just does not work for me.
Sorry if I've rambled.
As to the lack of presentation of alternatives to AA in treatment programs - my IOP was a mixture of 12-step, CBT, and a scientific approach. We were required to attend 8 AA meetings before we were allowed to "graduate." But I think, if any of us had been so inclined, we could have sought out alternative meetings and attended them instead. I, for one, had very little idea there even were alternatives. Once I came to SR, I found out there were, and tried to find other meetings anywhere near me. I live about 40 miles from Minneapolis/Paul, and went to a treatment center that is a bit closer than that. The fact is, there are very few alternative meetings even in the twin cities area, and NONE within what I consider a reasonable distance from me. So it was by default that we attended AA meetings. Or at least that's what I believe. I have gotten a lot out of AA, because I approach it from a "take what you need and leave the rest" angle. There's a lot of really good stuff there if you can parse the language and put aside what doesn't work for YOU.
The truth shall set you free
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5,267
Why isn't LifeRing, RR, SMART etc "taught" more in rehab centers?
From my perspective, but I'm not that smart lol
When Bill Wilson founded Alcoholics Anonymous, his primary concern, as a salesman, was making sure Alcoholics Anonymous was accessible to the common man. The Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book was written in a very common language that almost anyone could read (despite Bill Wilson’s convoluted writing style). SMART Recovery, founded by PhD psychologists and academics, has never been quite able to break out of its academic egg. While In the contrary alcoholics anonymous was created by alcoholics for alcoholics.
The Handbook uses terms like Rational-Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT), Motivational Interviewing (MI), and a load of other overly academic terms and acronyms. For someone not used to the common terminology of psychologists like me, it can be fairly intimidating.
This is why SMART Recovery or other non-step programs is often considered the “rich man’s” or the “smart man’s” AA. It has a tendency to appeal to the upper crust of the population, rather than speaking on a more relatable level.
Another important factor is location. Would you go to a Smart meeting in the Bowery? Also, Alcoholics Anonymous establish a more therapeutic atmosphere. The same therapeutic atmosphere you would find in rehabs centers or therapeutic communities.
TB
From my perspective, but I'm not that smart lol
When Bill Wilson founded Alcoholics Anonymous, his primary concern, as a salesman, was making sure Alcoholics Anonymous was accessible to the common man. The Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book was written in a very common language that almost anyone could read (despite Bill Wilson’s convoluted writing style). SMART Recovery, founded by PhD psychologists and academics, has never been quite able to break out of its academic egg. While In the contrary alcoholics anonymous was created by alcoholics for alcoholics.
The Handbook uses terms like Rational-Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT), Motivational Interviewing (MI), and a load of other overly academic terms and acronyms. For someone not used to the common terminology of psychologists like me, it can be fairly intimidating.
This is why SMART Recovery or other non-step programs is often considered the “rich man’s” or the “smart man’s” AA. It has a tendency to appeal to the upper crust of the population, rather than speaking on a more relatable level.
Another important factor is location. Would you go to a Smart meeting in the Bowery? Also, Alcoholics Anonymous establish a more therapeutic atmosphere. The same therapeutic atmosphere you would find in rehabs centers or therapeutic communities.
TB
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