Stoicism and 'The Serenity Prayer'.
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First: I am not trying to sell anyone on God and I understand many are not open to concept.
However the serenity prayer by very definition is a prayer and prayer is by definition (per Webster):
Definition of PRAYER
a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying
b : an earnest request or wish
: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>
So I am curious who/what are your prayers directed at?
However the serenity prayer by very definition is a prayer and prayer is by definition (per Webster):
Definition of PRAYER
a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying
b : an earnest request or wish
: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>
So I am curious who/what are your prayers directed at?
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Personally for me this year, through reading on here I discovered that prayer was a quick way for me to try and break the cycle of intrusive, repetitive and self defeating thoughts I am so familiar with.
Like a mantra I suppose? Now, if I had known or grasped that concept years ago I might be in a much better position today. I spent years wrestling with meditation for that purpose.
Whereas prayer seems a more appropriate practice in the instances I described above. That's just my own little realization, I would love to hear what others think also.
Like a mantra I suppose? Now, if I had known or grasped that concept years ago I might be in a much better position today. I spent years wrestling with meditation for that purpose.
Whereas prayer seems a more appropriate practice in the instances I described above. That's just my own little realization, I would love to hear what others think also.
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Awesome thread Redmayne!
I came across the connection between stoicisim and the serenity prayer too. I found the equation between the broken crockery and the loss of a child to be wanting but the foundation is solid.
You might be interested in Admiral James Stockdale. He used the principles of stoicisim to survive life as a POW in vietnam;
"On September 9, 1965, I flew at 500 knots right into a flak trap, at tree-top level, in a little A-4 airplane – the cockpit walls not even three feet apart – which I couldn’t steer after it was on fire, its control system shot out. After ejection I had about thirty seconds to make my last statement in freedom before I landed in the main street of a little [North Vietnamese] village right ahead. And so help me, I whispered to myself: “Five years down there [in captivity], at least. I’m leaving the world of technology and entering the world of Epictetus.” (Stockdale, 1995, p. 189)" -James Stockdale
and;
"What is not up to you? Beyond your power? Not subject to your will in the last instance? For starters, let's take "your station in life." As I glide down toward that little town on my short parachute ride, I'm just about to learn how negligible is my control over my station in life. It's not at all up to me. Of course I'm going right now from being the Wing Commander, in charge of a thousand people (pilots, crewmen, maintenance men), responsible for nearly a hundred airplanes, and beneficiary of goodness knows all sorts of symbolic status and goodwill, to being an object of contempt. "Criminal," I'll be known as. But that's not half the revelation that is the realization of your own fragility, that you can be reduced by the natural elements, or men, to a helpless, sobbing wreck-unable to control even your own bowels-in a matter of minutes. And more than that even, you're going to face fragilities you never before let yourself believe could be true. Like after mere minutes, in a flurry of action while being knocked down and then sat up to be bound with tourniquet-tight ropes, with care, by a professional, hands cuffed behind, jack-knifed forward, head pushed down between your ankles held secure in lugs attached to a heavy iron bar, that with the onrush of anxiety, knowing your upper-body blood circulation has been stopped, and feeling the evergrowing pain and the ever-closing-in of claustrophobia as the man standing on your back gives your head one last shove down with his heel and you start to gasp and vomit, that you can be made to blurt out answers, probably correct answers, to questions about anything they know you know. I'm not going to pull you through that explanation again. I'll just call it "taking the ropes."
No, "station in life" can be changed from that of a dignified and competent gentleman of culture to that of a panic-stricken, sobbing, self-loathing wreck, maybe a permanent wreck if you have no will, in less than an hour. So what? So after you work a lifetime to get yourself all set up, and then delude yourself into thinking that YOU have some kind of ownership claim on your station in life, you're riding for a fall. You're asking for disappointment. To avoid that, stop kidding yourself, just do the best you can on a common-sense basis to make your station in life what you want it to be, but never get hooked on it. Make sure in your heart of hearts, in your inner self, that you treat your station in life with indifference. Not with contempt, only with indifference. " -James Stockdale.
I came across the connection between stoicisim and the serenity prayer too. I found the equation between the broken crockery and the loss of a child to be wanting but the foundation is solid.
You might be interested in Admiral James Stockdale. He used the principles of stoicisim to survive life as a POW in vietnam;
"On September 9, 1965, I flew at 500 knots right into a flak trap, at tree-top level, in a little A-4 airplane – the cockpit walls not even three feet apart – which I couldn’t steer after it was on fire, its control system shot out. After ejection I had about thirty seconds to make my last statement in freedom before I landed in the main street of a little [North Vietnamese] village right ahead. And so help me, I whispered to myself: “Five years down there [in captivity], at least. I’m leaving the world of technology and entering the world of Epictetus.” (Stockdale, 1995, p. 189)" -James Stockdale
and;
"What is not up to you? Beyond your power? Not subject to your will in the last instance? For starters, let's take "your station in life." As I glide down toward that little town on my short parachute ride, I'm just about to learn how negligible is my control over my station in life. It's not at all up to me. Of course I'm going right now from being the Wing Commander, in charge of a thousand people (pilots, crewmen, maintenance men), responsible for nearly a hundred airplanes, and beneficiary of goodness knows all sorts of symbolic status and goodwill, to being an object of contempt. "Criminal," I'll be known as. But that's not half the revelation that is the realization of your own fragility, that you can be reduced by the natural elements, or men, to a helpless, sobbing wreck-unable to control even your own bowels-in a matter of minutes. And more than that even, you're going to face fragilities you never before let yourself believe could be true. Like after mere minutes, in a flurry of action while being knocked down and then sat up to be bound with tourniquet-tight ropes, with care, by a professional, hands cuffed behind, jack-knifed forward, head pushed down between your ankles held secure in lugs attached to a heavy iron bar, that with the onrush of anxiety, knowing your upper-body blood circulation has been stopped, and feeling the evergrowing pain and the ever-closing-in of claustrophobia as the man standing on your back gives your head one last shove down with his heel and you start to gasp and vomit, that you can be made to blurt out answers, probably correct answers, to questions about anything they know you know. I'm not going to pull you through that explanation again. I'll just call it "taking the ropes."
No, "station in life" can be changed from that of a dignified and competent gentleman of culture to that of a panic-stricken, sobbing, self-loathing wreck, maybe a permanent wreck if you have no will, in less than an hour. So what? So after you work a lifetime to get yourself all set up, and then delude yourself into thinking that YOU have some kind of ownership claim on your station in life, you're riding for a fall. You're asking for disappointment. To avoid that, stop kidding yourself, just do the best you can on a common-sense basis to make your station in life what you want it to be, but never get hooked on it. Make sure in your heart of hearts, in your inner self, that you treat your station in life with indifference. Not with contempt, only with indifference. " -James Stockdale.
Redmayne
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Stoicism today...
Hi, thanks for that, Admiral James Stockdale together with The Serenity Prayer are both mentioned in the books ,'Stoicism Today: Selected Essays' by Philip Usher and,' Philosophy for Life' by Jules Evans, each of whom have their own website of the same title...if you care to look.
Your post was quite useful and inspirational, I greatly enjoyed it
Your post was quite useful and inspirational, I greatly enjoyed it
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Open Yale Courses | Philosophy and the Science of Human Nature | Lecture 8 - Flourishing and Detachment
Here is a lecture at Yale university on Stoicism and James Stockdale.
Here is a lecture at Yale university on Stoicism and James Stockdale.
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I am studying theology right now and Epictetus/Stoicisim was just a brief section, but it just really jumped out at me. First the connection to the serenity prayer and then James Stockdale. It is one thing to have a philosophical outlook. It is quite another to have that outlook tested by fire like he did.
Redmayne
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Tested in the fire...
Thanks for the link, great. Oh yes, there's nothing better than having one's outlook, especially on Stoic philosophy, 'tested in the fire' and that I can vouch from personal experience...but that's another story.
It also allies with spirituality, which, as many agree can be taught, but is only learned by experiential learning, like recovery, although others an share their experience, strength and hope. No one can do it for you...
It also allies with spirituality, which, as many agree can be taught, but is only learned by experiential learning, like recovery, although others an share their experience, strength and hope. No one can do it for you...
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Yep, the insistence of Epictetus and other stoic teachers that a philosophy must be lived probably kept philosophy from being reduced to a vaudeville act like the sophists would have gladly done.
The problem with stoicism/Epictetus though is right here;
Which sounds great until you get here;
While it may be attractive to have a Vulcan like dispassion towards the world around us, it just does not work in practice. Whether we do the jesus stuff or a primordial soup thing we all have an undeniable connection to others and the world around us.
James Stockdale spoke of his love and concern for his fellow prisoners but there was little he could do for them. I would say that it was a very fine line for him to walk, on the one hand keeping his sanity and not being an apathetic robot.
The problem with stoicism/Epictetus though is right here;
"(5)What disturbs men's minds is not events but their judgments on events: For instance, death is nothing dreadful, or else Socrates would have thought it so. No, the only dreadful thing about it is men's judgment that it is dreadful. And so when we are hindered, or disturbed, or distressed, let us never lay the blame on others, but on ourselves, that is, on our own judgments. To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education; to accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun; to accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete."-ENCHIRIDION
"(16)When you see a man shedding tears in sorrow for a child abroad or dead, or for loss of property, beware that you are not carried away by the impression that it is outward ills that make him miserable. Keep this thought by you: 'What distresses him is not the event, for that does not distress another, but his judgment on the event.' Therefore do not hesitate to sympathize with him so far as words go, and if it so chance, even to groan with him; but take heed that you do not also groan in your inner being."-ENCHIRIDION
James Stockdale spoke of his love and concern for his fellow prisoners but there was little he could do for them. I would say that it was a very fine line for him to walk, on the one hand keeping his sanity and not being an apathetic robot.
Redmayne
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A Vulcan like dispassion?
For a fuller response to the point raised that Stoics act with a Vulcan like dispassion and to aid clarification that in fact they do the exact opposite. I'd suggest reading ,' Stoics are not unemotional' by Donald Robertson in Part One: Stoic Theory of Patrick Usher's book,'Stoicism Today: Selected Writings', which is obviously to long to repeat in its entirety here.
In the Stoic context their focus on 'apatheia', which most people would view as the Vulcan like dispassion referred to, doesn't mean that at all it simply means the absence of irrational, unhealthy, or excessive "passions".
The Stoics repeatedly emphasised that by this they did not mean ""apathy" or complete lack of feeling for other people. Which simply refers to the theory of irrational passions and detachment from them and not Vulcan like dispassion asb might be displayed by the 'hard hearted' or 'insensitive'.
To me who has, in company with others, pursued four professional careers in the service of my country and the community working with other it is dealing with events in terms of professional detachment. There's little room for emotions at the scenes of trauma or carnage, when events or the aftermath of them, take precedence any tears that are to be shed must be held in abeyance to be shed later.
Which, from personal experience I and a few of my colleagues have done on occasions.
In the Stoic context their focus on 'apatheia', which most people would view as the Vulcan like dispassion referred to, doesn't mean that at all it simply means the absence of irrational, unhealthy, or excessive "passions".
The Stoics repeatedly emphasised that by this they did not mean ""apathy" or complete lack of feeling for other people. Which simply refers to the theory of irrational passions and detachment from them and not Vulcan like dispassion asb might be displayed by the 'hard hearted' or 'insensitive'.
To me who has, in company with others, pursued four professional careers in the service of my country and the community working with other it is dealing with events in terms of professional detachment. There's little room for emotions at the scenes of trauma or carnage, when events or the aftermath of them, take precedence any tears that are to be shed must be held in abeyance to be shed later.
Which, from personal experience I and a few of my colleagues have done on occasions.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Redmayne 
In the Stoic context their focus on 'apatheia', which most people would view as the Vulcan like dispassion referred to, doesn't mean that at all it simply means the absence of irrational, unhealthy, or excessive "passions".
The Stoics repeatedly emphasised that by this they did not mean ""apathy" or complete lack of feeling for other people. Which simply refers to the theory of irrational passions and detachment from them and not Vulcan like dispassion asb might be displayed by the 'hard hearted' or 'insensitive'.
The Stoics repeatedly emphasised that by this they did not mean ""apathy" or complete lack of feeling for other people. Which simply refers to the theory of irrational passions and detachment from them and not Vulcan like dispassion asb might be displayed by the 'hard hearted' or 'insensitive'.
Spiritual Detachment does not mean "I don't care". Instead it is the equivalent of placing a boundary on compassion and concern. The Spiritually Detached person will say "I care about my part. My part only". There is then a recognition of playing a limited role in the situation that looks to an outside observer like psychological detachment, but yet feels different on the inside of a person practicing this principle. Meister Eckhart said "Detachment is the highest principle. The most noble of virtues and the only truly pure motive for doing anything". The concept of Spiritual Detachment can also be found in;
Shoshin -Buddhism
ZaZen - Zen
Pu - Taoism
Nishkam Karma - Hindu
Mushin - Martial Arts
Holy Indifference - St Ignatius of Loyola
Yichud - Hasidic Judaism
Fana - Sufism
If you think it is not germane to recovery see the "Hole in the Doughnut" described in "The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions"
(Bill W & Tom P)
The actual practice of Spiritual Detachment can be described in 4 simple phases;
1. Recognize our part
2. Do our part (only our part)
3. Trust some higher power to do it's part (aka Stockdale's Heart of Hearts)
4. Detach from the outcome (aka Eckhart Tolle's take on Meister Eckhart)
Redmayne
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Joint apathy...
Perhaps an example of joint 'apathy', expressed in normal terms, is that health professionals specializing in mental health tend to agree, that there are some people who, no matter you offer or do for them, will always self destruct.
As opposed to those who indulge in excessive, irrational and unhealthy 'passions' which Stoics view as 'apathy' and seek to avoid whilst those who indulge in these pursuits, often bring about their own self destruction e.g alcoholics and addicts.
As opposed to those who indulge in excessive, irrational and unhealthy 'passions' which Stoics view as 'apathy' and seek to avoid whilst those who indulge in these pursuits, often bring about their own self destruction e.g alcoholics and addicts.
Redmayne
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A common misunderstanding...
No, no, no don't berate ourself, it's a common misunderstanding in those unfamiliar with the philosophy of the principles and practices of Stoicism...
It's great that with all your other studies you both showed an interest, enough to write about it so others including myself can learn, thank you.
It's great that with all your other studies you both showed an interest, enough to write about it so others including myself can learn, thank you.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
The actual practice of Spiritual Detachment can be described in 4 simple phases;
1. Recognize our part
2. Do our part (only our part)
3. Trust some higher power to do it's part (aka Stockdale's Heart of Hearts)
4. Detach from the outcome (aka Eckhart Tolle's take on Meister Eckhart)God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change - 1,3 & 4
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change - 1,3 & 4
The courage to change the things I can - 2
And the wisdom to know the difference - 1 & 4
Redmayne
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I always think...
I always think the best approach to practising the principles of Stoic philosophy, is to try to develop a mature, easygoing, approach to life, with a well maintained sense of humour so as to make you feel,'comfortable in you own skin' where you can exist in the citadel of your soul.
Allowing you to 'Be like the headland on which waves continually crash: it stands firm and gathers the waters around it to rest.'
Marcus Aurelius, 'Meditations, 4.48.
So that the sheer joy of living your life is not disturbed by the external irritations of life, over which you are powerless.
In recovery it's referred to as in Stoic philosophy, serenity.
Allowing you to 'Be like the headland on which waves continually crash: it stands firm and gathers the waters around it to rest.'
Marcus Aurelius, 'Meditations, 4.48.
So that the sheer joy of living your life is not disturbed by the external irritations of life, over which you are powerless.
In recovery it's referred to as in Stoic philosophy, serenity.
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