Lenina

I have to disagree with Jack on this, I think having some face to Face support is good in the early days. IMO, there's a lot to be gained from the 12 Steps and Traditions. I was able to get some balance n my life and repair relationships. It helped me regain some self esteem too.

I did not enjoy the meetings. Once a week was enough. but I was very lucky to have a sponsor who was a perfect fit for me.

Love from Lenina

jazzfish

Interesting question. I would think it would be less effective the way you rewrote it. The original way is a simple line in the sand and a clear break with the past. The alternative is a future projection and being sober is the primary identifier for my new life, which for me creates for complexity and less certainty.

Greenwood618

This is a very simple rhetorical game that must be mastered.

Beasts play word and mind games all the time. It is only fair that word and mind games should be used against them.

You did not "decide" to have a little drinky-poo.

Rather, your rational human self allowed the base brain Beast to gain control of your language and actions.

You became all Beast again.

As such, "you" did not break the promise you made to yourself about never drinking again. It was something than happened when your behavior was under control of the sub-human Beast brain that sits astride your higher reasoning, fully human part.

Any suggestion you are hearing that "you" are incapable of never drinking again and never changing your mind is Beast speaking through your AV, attempting to undermine your normal, mature, adult family life.

Your Beast is speaking loudly to you and you are allowing it to gain control of your language and behavior. The only word the Beast fears is never.

If you refuse to tell it never - twice, as in now and always - you are ambivalent about drinking.

Perhaps you should just be honest with yourself and enjoy all the drinks you want.

samseb5351

When I am speaking of skepticism I am talking more about a method than a position. What is likely for me at least, is the things I am the most confident about, where there is a temptation to set it aside as both a truth centerpiece and a "done deal" of recovery are likely to be incorrect overtime, not because it was not affective (sometimes things are very affective) but because I have turned into something unchangeable, its power ends up being my stubborness and selective withdrawal from fair inquiry.

Nonsensical

I have come to the same conclusion, but I explain it slightly differently - aligning with the way GW618 explained it, but somewhat less stridently.

The Big Plan was ironically named by its originator because it is not big at all. It is simple and concise. While the central thesis of RR is putting the self in charge, the BP is all about the Beast. It is the articulation of a rule, and the audience for hearing that rule is the Beast. In that context being direct, pointed, and phrased in the negative ("not ever") provides the most effective messaging.

IMO, if RR has a weakness it is this: while it's central theme is self-empowerment it focuses almost exclusively on Beast management. It ignores the Beauty (self). This may have been intentional. In the aggregate our Beasts have a lot more in common than our Beauties. Providing Beast management guidelines is simpler and much more likely to be successful (in terms of helping the most people) than trying to provide Beauty building guidelines. The wide array of personalities in this forum alone indicates that would be a daunting task. I just think it could have been stressed a bit more in the original text. If the message that RR puts the foundation in place, it's up to you to finish building the cathedral was part of the book it was subtle enough to have been missed by this reader. Scream that message from the rooftops I say!

Fortunately for me there are posters in this forum who have done a fantastic job of fleshing out the skeleton of RR/AVRT and explaining that it is not an end, but a means to an end - and that end is happy sober living.

Good stuff, this thread.

JeffreyAK

Yeah, that's what bothers me a lot about Rational Recovery and makes it sound a lot like that other program, by defining what is the correct path and what is "wrong", with Trimpey as shepherd. From their website, "Can I use AVRT along with recovery group participation? No. Not if you take either approach seriously. AVRT-based recovery and group based recovery are incompatible. They are polar opposites, point for point, and in every respect." This just makes me laugh. Following this advice exactly, no one involved with RR would ever post on internet forums on addiction topics.

That said, the concept of an addictive voice is excellent. RR calls it "AV", LifeRing calls it "A", lots of people refer to the lizard brain or reptile, even AA has "stinkin thinkin".

dwtbd

Trimpey's point was that ending an addiction should not be conditional in regards to participation in a "group" or program. The idea that a return to drinking is predicated on not doing or following a mandated "method". Decide to quit and stick to it, as opposed to want to quit and then look for the rules or actions that will get you there, or force you to fail if not applied. That thinking opens the door to the AV to justify a return to drinking or addiction.
I do not see that speaking about the topic of addiction is precluded, just the idea that one must in order to not be lead back to drinking.

MesaMan

I'll give this a go over my Italian-strength Coffee...

Right from the get-go, what popped into my Head from the OP Thread Title was that perhaps the prior Mindset was at work. That is, that a Program is superimposed externally. Thus, if it doesn't address this-or-that aspect of Sobering up, there's some congenital Program weakness. This is simply a structural observation; not a 'dis toward the OP whatsoever.

To ensure my own Sobriety, I took that proverbial Chessboard, as I call it, and flipped it onto the Floor last year. 'Old School' Program Paradigms dismissed. What works for me is to work this Sobering-up Process from the inside out. I have no expectations about the external Program, because it all comes down to me once provided Structure. And, phenomenal support on-the-go via SR. I can't read Minds, so I don't know if this uncompromising 'The Buck Stops Here' Responsibility is what chases off some Folks from Self-Directed Programs.

A Corollary of this POV is that I don't care about the purported Program 'Shepherd'. Never even read his Book. I just looked at the Slides on line, thanks to the Folks here that made me aware of them, and ran with it. Frankly, a lot of the exhausting discussion elsewhere on SR about this-or-that Program point - or what was really meant in some ancient Passage - reminds me of being in Student Government back in The Stone Age. I.e., discussing to death various parts of High School Policy, as though it all mattered much vs. living here and now.

Almost every week, Folks do amazing things. They lift Cars off trapped People. They talk down School Shooters. They intervene to save abused Animals. In contrast, all I'm doing is building a modest Sobriety Building on the Foundation my chosen Program supplied.

There is a simpler concept than 'I'm not picking up today'. I simply can't fathom that daily struggle, so I leave that to others. I take their word that such an approach is best for them. I dismiss Program Proselytizing straight away, whether here, or on my Front Doorstep.

Distilled, the simplest idea is that 'I'm not picking up'. I'm forever grateful to coming across the RR/AVRT Construct, and the simplicity of The Big Plan. Even though this Big Plan exposure was ~2 months after I'd just up and quit, it provided structure and provenance. The time-tested way that innumerable prior Generations did it. From that point on comes the Life-long exercise of implementing Sobriety.

Personalities; Program minutiae; or needless complexity are all things I toss aside - after careful examination - in order to augment focus.

-----

JeffreyAK

That's not what he writes though. Some people need group support and there's nothing at all wrong with that, and there are many types of groups where people share their experiences. But he lays out a program and tells you what you need to do to follow it, just like that other program.

Me, I needed to be a robot early on, attending all-day medical treatment support groups for 2 solid months. I was totally incapable of thinking clearly enough to do it on my own, despite what my own reptile told me for months prior to that. With time and sobriety I was able to absorb more, but early on I needed a lot of support particularly from a handful of key people who cared and had counseling skills. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, and I'm far from alone.

Secular just means, not religious. Doesn't have to be anti-group support.

dwtbd

Jeff
We may be speaking past each other , I was commenting on my view of participating in discussions of addiction. Taking this any further would, I believe , run foul of the forum rules, it would seem to involve a debate of methods or recovery itself.

LBrain

I cannot comment at all about what Trimpey says or what is in any of the books. I have not read any of them. As with Mesa, I discovered AVRT a couple months - close to three - after I quit. My only exposure to it was the explanation in the sticky Freshstart posted here and the 5 or 10 minutes I spent reading the crash course.

I believe that group discussions are a benefit. They may not have to be an ongoing endeavor though. Just long enough to help a person come to the understanding of what must be done. If they need more encouragement and support, they should seek and accept it. Some of us are able to just recognize the need to quit drinking for our own benefit and well being. My "group" discussions occurred sitting in the chair I am in now. I consider this website, SR, to be my group. Since I relied heavily on it over the past year I do not qualify myself as someone who just quit and went on with life. There were times I struggled with wanting a drink. And even though I promised myself I would never drink again, I used this source as an aid to keep me focused on that goal.

Hope I made sense.

anattaboy

I rather enjoy this group. I go by my old home group of AA sometimes to see folks I know--some I don't. I also go to the fair every year. I go to my daughter's soccer games. I visit my brother who is an avid meeting attender (2-3-a-day) and sometimes go with to support him. All of this is social life for me. The nic taper I'm successfully doing gives my beast a stir but it's a pathetic whimper. She has lost all her charm and knows it. I see her with others and keep on strolling--no jealousy here. I'm free to be what I want but was unable to see it til I was. AVRT helped me with that.

Nonsensical