Gmoney

I wrote:
So...are you saying that YOUR point is the point I made? LOL!!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!!! LOL!!

Peachyclean, sounds like your experience mirrors the example I gave of what can be seen as misery. You even said yourself:

Exactly!!! Now that's MY point. A little open-mindedness goes a very long way.

bugsworth

Gary, I think most everyone here knows the difference between the "program" and the "fellowship". That being said, you along with others have admitted the "fellowship" can cause harm simply because humans are falliable. The "program" was designed by falliable people also, so to say that it is perfect and can't harm anyone is illogical. There is nothing in this world that is perfect, including the 12 steps. I won't dispute that it has been the keys to freedom for many, but by no means have they worked for all. Maybe I am alone, although I doubt it, in regards to the potential damage that the 12 steps can inflict upon the human soul. It is my opinion by no means a fact. The same way that you believe the steps are perfect...opinion, not fact.

lucyo

you werent the one being quoted...

barto said:
what I mean by the existence of misinformation and misunderstanding on this board is evidenced in at least three recent posts. By these posts, at least three posters here demonstrate that they do not know that meetings, members, and fellowship are not the program. They are not even part of it. That's right. They are not even part of it. This is fact, not opinion, despite that even many active members don't know this. They don't know because they don't read.

There is only one AA program.

and I said:
well maybe thats where the communication break down is coming...i thought this forum was about NA. we have a different book, the Basic Text. And from my understanding... yes the progarm is a set of principles... but i practice the principles by using the tools of the program... going to meetings, fellowship, sponsorship, service, etc... if those weren't an important part of the program, why would they be mentioned all throughout the BASIC TEXT? they are very much a part of it. NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS IS A FELLOWSHIP... how can you not consider 'fellowship' a part of the program?

i suppose this could just be a semantic problem, but i can assure you that those tools are very much a part of narcotics anonymous.

Gmoney

Bugs, it has been revealed all through this thread that 'many' people here do not know the difference between the fellowship and the program - which is why I kept trying to keep the focus clear on the accussation that the program causes harm, and there has not yet been offered here anything to support these claims other than theory, rumor, hearsay and anti-12 step wishful thinking. That being said, I once again say that those who continue to harp on 'potential' and 'possibilities' fail miserably in offering specific examples of how the program of NA (or any other) has caused any type of harm. Instead of doing so, words get twisted, word games get played and the same empty assertion gets made. "It could"...yeah, but it could not. If it does cause harm...show me something other than what you imagine. Can you or anyone else here provide more than hypothetical insinuations to support your belief? I doubt it, because no one has done it yet. (THAT's also a belief)

For the record...I have never stated that the steps are perfect, nor that I believed they were. Those are your words.

I said that too, eh? I've admitted no such thing. Grasping at straws again? LOL!!

bugsworth

Gary, I apologize if I put words in your mouth, I did not mean to propose that I know what you think.

When the question was posed, I choose to speak of the harm caused by people in the fellowship, as did others. Even those who feel AA/NA has saved their lives agreed with my assessment of the fellowship. I also choose to not comment on the 12 step teachings for reasons that should be quite obvious. Just because you do not see what harm can come out of practicing the 12 steps does not mean it does not exist. Rather than expand on this in this forum I chose to keep my opinions regarding the steps to myself. I would be glad to discuss this further as I am always open to learn. but am hesitant to do so on this thread since it is in the 12 step support forum.

Gmoney

Thanks Bugsworth,

Throughout this thread I have stated that I, nor NA, has ever been of the position that NA is the only way. I have also stated that the 'harm' (real or imagined) MAY be a result of overly zealous people WITHIN the fellowship who MAY BE putting forth their misinterpreted/misunderstood views as the views of NA as a whole. Instead a re-writing what my position or NA's position is, I'll just say that those who really want to know what NA is about ought to read NA literature before they spread the anti-NA garbage in an attempt to discredit what works for millions of NA members around the world.

And I agree, what I haven't seen isn't proof on non-existence, yet there has been no proof of the existence of harm either...just insinuations, hypotheticals, excuses and misdirection (blaming). As also previously stated, involvement in a 12 step program is optional - not forced. NA doesn't force anything on anyone. "Practicing" a 12 step program requires a voluntary decision made by an individual, so any harm resulting from this decision, IMHO, shouldn't be placed haphazardly. Personal accountability need always be considered when discussing the real or imaginary harm, especially when no specific harm has been identified (only, "it could happen" or "it has the potential..."). One or two people does not make up a 'fellowship' and the people you say that, "choose to speak of the harm caused.." have not spoken of any harm that they know of...only what they think "could" occur. In opposition to that, many on this thread has said they can't see how words written on paper can cause harm. I agree because it isn't the words that cause harm...it's the misunderstanding, misinterpretation and unacceptability of said words that lies at the root of their feelings and/or behavior.

With that said, and the wheels spinning in oil, I'll bow out of this discussion.

Best wishes to all.

Gmoney

It was interesting to re-read this thread. Over 5,600 views...wow.

greens

Have you ever read any 12 step horror Stories? I believe the majority of ppl in the rooms are living a spiritual and we'll meanING life. Most of the ones I've met are amazing ppl and Im grateful for them.
However there r ppl who have been hurt, not juts by the pp, in the rooms, but by certain aspects of the progrsm . I'm not saying the progrsm IS bad! Im just encouragING yiu to read some stories to understand where others r coming From.
however, as with all things, there r two sides to the coin .

miamifella

The Basic Text like AA's Big Book is a bit vague about how to work the steps. The steps and the results of them are clear...but what you are supposed to do to achieve them is left pretty open.

So how to do it has to come from other people. The division of "program" and "fellowship" makes sense theoretically, but in practical terms the fellowship delivers the program.

I myself am no longer in the program, but reading here it is very clear that there is no one way of doing the program. There are many approaches to NA and even what the steps are precisely getting at.

MIRecovery

I believe that a post from 2007 with 6 pages of posts is a thread that has said everything that needs to be said.

Let dead threads RIP

Ken33xx

Well said

Gmoney

Iconoclastic

You’re confusing the AA fellowship with the suggested AA recovery program, which is the 12 steps. The AA fellowship is not the suggested AA recovery program. There’s nothing in the 12 Steps about counting days and there’s no criteria for relapse, it doesn’t exist. The AA recovery program is suggested, that’s why there’s no dogma.

The fellowship on the other hand has some ignorant (uninformed) members that haven’t read the AA text, so they make-up or parrot, usually parrot dysfunctional ideas that have been passed down over the years that have nothing to do with the suggested AA recovery program. Some might ask, how can I make this statement, well it simple, I’ve read Alcoholics Anonymous and NA as well as other AA books including AA history. So I know when an AA member or non-AA member is ignorant.

What most AA members don’t realize, as well as many outsiders based on hearsay is that each individual has the prerogative to set their own standard for THEIR recovery. That they don’t have to answer to anyone in the AA fellowship. The AA fellowship has no hierarchy, every one is equal whether newcomer or old-timer, therefore the AA fellowship has no dogma.

Your post has proven the essence of Gmoney’s post, you’re uninformed, but I hope my post has enlightened you!

BTW, my AA sponsor who is deceased help write and edit the structure of the NA Textbook.

Iconoclastic

You’re confusing the AA fellowship with the suggested AA recovery program, which is the 12 steps. The AA fellowship is not the suggested AA recovery program. There’s nothing in the 12 Steps about counting days and there’s no criteria for relapse, it doesn’t exist. The AA recovery program is suggested, that’s why there’s no dogma.

The fellowship on the other hand has some ignorant (uninformed) members that haven’t read the AA text, so they make-up or parrot, usually parrot dysfunctional ideas that have been passed down over the years that have nothing to do with the suggested AA recovery program. Some might ask, how can I make this statement, well it simple, I’ve read Alcoholics Anonymous and NA as well as other AA books including AA history. So I know when an AA member or non-AA member is ignorant.

What most AA members don’t realize, as well as many outsiders based on hearsay is that each individual has the prerogative to set their own standard for THEIR recovery. That they don’t have to answer to anyone in the AA fellowship. The AA fellowship has no hierarchy, every one is equal whether newcomer or old-timer, therefore the AA fellowship has no dogma.

Your post has proven the essence of Gmoney’s post, you’re uninformed, but I hope my post has enlightened you!

BTW, my AA sponsor who is deceased help write and edit the structure of the NA Textbook.

Gmoney

Marylynn123456

damn why do u people get so crazy over who is doing what its none of your bisiness just stick to your program and who cares what others are doing let people be. So ridiculous that this is going on and on