Athiests in AA??

[paulmh]

Don S said:

Wow! So atheists are self-obsessed, prideful, egotists? Who think they are gods? No wonder you don't feel comfortable in this forum.

What a piece of obfuscation.

The thread is about going to AA or not. Yet again, there is a bigotry among people that AA is religious. Yet again other people try to come out and suggest that for the alcoholic who wants to recover it is important to see beyond the language, and find the action.

In response to you Don - it's in the nature of how we hold a belief. Religious beliefs - and secular beliefs - are a source of comfort and warmth to lots of sane, well-balanced people. Religious bigotry - and secular bigotry - are a source of confirmation of righteous anger for a lot of less well balanced people. Some people hold a belief and understand it to be personal. Some people hold a belief and imagine it to be knowledge. It doesn't matter whether it's theistic or atheistic. If it's held as confirmation of prejudice it's unhealthy. And for this alcoholic, yes, I was and am a self-obssessed, prideful egotist. If you're not, good for you. Bu claiming to be a secularist doesn't automatically rid anyone of their religious prejudices.. If one claims to "know" the nature of the universe, I think we can call that Pride though. And incidentally, claiming to know that it's ~NT G*d or ~OT G*D or indeed ~bowl on the back of a tortoise is stretching "know" into realms of useage where "know" doesn't belong. As is "I know that G*D doesn't exist so that's a good reason for you not to go to AA"

And to come back to the point of the thread. Kali Ma asked about a first AA experience. Yet again someone said they don't go because it's all about G*d. So yet again I say - it's all about therapy. Lol, SECULAR therapy!

[Five]

I'l bite on this and come back. If AA does not require any religous beliefs, how come you have to believe in a God that has a will, that removes defects of character, who you pray to, who you have to be humble to, who you have to get honest to.

A door knob cannot do them things.

"the athiest of savage mind".

[Five]

I think whether AA is religious or not is beside the point; the key is that some people do not find AA comfortable on a many levels and are not willing to 'come to believe'. That is the problem. And that is why a secular movement has grown. There is not problem now, as there are many sources out there that can help anyone.

[Autumn]

I think it's really fabulous that you may have found a niche in AA. I'm very grateful to people like you and Blake, and other forward-thinking individuals who might be able to help people like yourselves find a niche there also. I really, really wish I were quite that flexible, because it would be nice to be able to help others adapt to the program also, with so little else available.

I don't think this came out sounding the way I intended, since I didn't mean to imply that anyone else is backward-thinking or that I'm rigid.

Anyway, good luck!

[paulmh]

It can be hard going to overcome that prejudice can't it Five.

I'l bite on this and come back. If AA does not require any religous beliefs, how come you have to believe in a God that has a will, that removes defects of character, who you pray to, who you have to be humble to, who you have to get honest to.

AA works because of the changes it encourages the individual to embrace. This works independently of the nature of the universe. We try to be humble and honest, for ourselves, not "to" anything. We try to understand what we have power over and what we don't and in the same way that a Catholic would put it in God's hands, or a Taoist would be serene in trying to live according to the Tao rather than fighting against it - oh and incidentally, a mechanical determinist would be calm in the face of the universal unfolding - so we leanr to have a more balanced, less struggling - less egotistical -attitude towards the universe. As for defects of character, yes I do pray to have them removed. It is an emotional preparedness for "letting go" of them. I don't expect to have them taken away by G*d, and accroding to most of the people I meet in AA neither do they.

It is an honest response to the disease of alcoholism. It is the start of a process of going beyond one's own prejudices and bigotry and isolation, and making one's self vulnerable - and open - to change. It is a recognition that I own my condition, and I will do what I can to offset it's effects.

[felicity]

Take what you want and leave the rest, you say?

My addict mind automatically thinks of the phrase: "Do not use, no matter what."

Ok ... here goes ....

"DO ... USE ... "

Well, that's all I really want!!! Guess the AA philosophy works just fine for me!!!

Seriously, though, as an athiest I find AA and NA teachings harder to swallow than tequila on a stomachful of redhot chili sauce. I came ... I tried ... I failed ... I left.

While I respect that the program works for many people, I am not convinced that it could ever help me. First of all, I believe that my work is my salvation. And dammit, if I'm a workaholic ... then that's the best "aholic" I can think of to be. At least I won't be homeless, and if I get sick I have plenty of money to fix myself, and unlike most people, I actually love my job (which is what a person spends the majority of their time doing, anyway).

So, work is my solution to my addiction. I'm pretty happy with my solution today.

I do take some advice from AA and NA, though ... such as taking it day by day, being grateful for what you have, faking it until you make it, and having close friends. This is practical, good advice to live by.

[paulmh]

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to persuade people to go. I'm trying to stop people misrepresenting it. If it's not for you, great. But if people are telling others not to go because they have an unjustified prejudice, then they harm others.

[felicity]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to persuade people to go. I'm trying to stop people misrepresenting it. If it's not for you, great. But if people are telling others not to go because they have an unjustified prejudice, then they harm others.

Oh, I know what you're saying. I should have quoted the person who started this thread, because that's actually who I was addressing my post to. I wasn't saying anything bad about you.

[aloneagainor]

Originally Posted by kali ma

...took what I needed... and left the rest. I love you all at SR, but I don't think that it alone will keep me away from my beloved...

I've just spent the first 2 hours of this morning reading multiple times over the three new threads on this forum and all subsequent posts of the past 12 hours. And am feeling even more schizophrenic than usual as a result. BUT, a moment of clarity has arisen in this most recent read-through of this thread. Found in this:

Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse

I know I can learn to adapt to fit my needs.

It ALL comes down to that in the end. Discovering a new way of thinking, incorporating ALL that we can process, and engaging all-inclusive REASON over selective-exclusive dogma/ preset constraints of any one viewpoint, recognizing that NEED to adapt...to fit one's changing needs. That which changes and adapts to the changing environment, survives. That which does not, perishes. That is the law of nature. It applies to all things physical, mental, spiritual, secular. It is evolution, and how that works is REAL. The importance of keeping an open mind, in action.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Five

I'l bite on this and come back. If AA does not require any religous beliefs, how come you have to believe in a God that has a will, that removes defects of character, who you pray to, who you have to be humble to, who you have to get honest to.

A door knob cannot do them things.

"the athiest of savage mind".

okay 5, this is how I deal with all those things

God's will- for me this means getting rid of self will, I try to look at a situation and what ever is best for all people involved, regardless of my own interests is "god's will"

Defects of character- "god" doesn't remove defects of character, but the the 6th step says we became entirely ready for "god" to remove these defects of character, which means that our defects become visible to us....through meditation and journaling, a defect is a patern of behavior. the next sted talks about asking to have our "shortcomming" removed, which is about growing enough personally to not have to act out on our usual paterns of behavior (the acting out on a defect of character is the definition of a short comming). Through mediation, writing and discussion with our sponsor, we learn to act correctly in situations and try to do "god's will" instead of reacting and living in self. All the actions of these 2 steps come from individual participation and self searching.

Praying- I am not religious, like I said. So when I "pray" it is more of a way to get intouch with my conscience and is about settleing my mind and resembles meditation more than religious prayer.

Getting humble- I get humble not to impress a diety, I get humble because there is a lesson in it. Humility retards my ego and puts me back into check. I get humble for the benifit of blake, not "god". "get humble or get humiliated" is a maxim I have found to be true in a lot of situation.

Honesty- If you did believe in a god that was omniscient, what would be the need to get honest with it, it already knows everything. The honesty called for in the program is for individual growth, I have to get honest with myself and get honest with the people I trust. Lying is like a wildfire, If I stat being dishonest with people, it spreads and grows and sooner or later I start lying to myself till I start believing "I can go just have one bag of dope, I can handle it" and I end up strung out again.



these are all just the ways I have grown in my program to be able to work it with out religious belief.....just my opinion.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to persuade people to go. I'm trying to stop people misrepresenting it. If it's not for you, great. But if people are telling others not to go because they have an unjustified prejudice, then they harm others.

To many people, AA is religious. Several supreme court decisions in the States support that it is. Like Autumn said, I appreciate that some are able to secularize it, and make it work. For me, that is like trying to turn my car into a truck. It's much easier to sell the car, and buy a truck. Nobody is telling anyone not to go, however, some have explained why they don't go. It's not a matter of prejudice, it's a matter of choice. And as I said on another thread, I should be able to say that AA is not right for me, without being accused of not wanting, or not being willing, to get/stay sober.

[Blake]

DK I don't think anyone here was telling anyone that if they didn't want to go to AA/NA they didn't want or wern't willing to get clean/sober.

THis thread is about how people that are secular deal with the god thing in AA/NA, not weather someone who is secular should go to AA/NA or not.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Blake

DK I don't think anyone here was telling anyone that if they didn't want to go to AA/NA they didn't want or wern't willing to get clean/sober.

Sorry Blake, that was from another thread that Paul and I were posting on.

[shockozulu]

Originally Posted by paulmh

The thread is about going to AA or not. Yet again, there is a bigotry among people that AA is religious.

I go to a meeting, they end with the Lord's Prayer. I AM religious, and I don't want that. That is bigoted?

Originally Posted by Blake

THis thread is about how people that are secular deal with the god thing in AA/NA, not weather someone who is secular should go to AA/NA or not.

When I do attend meetings, I deal with it by going to the one (albeit daily) meeting I have found, out of over 100. The one meeting that doesn't put emphasis on god, but on us and our changes. There is talk of a HP, yes, but in a very generic sense, not a 'god' sense at all.

[Five]

Originally Posted by felicity

I do take some advice from AA and NA, though ... such as taking it day by day, being grateful for what you have, faking it until you make it, and having close friends. This is practical, good advice to live by.

So do I.

[historyteach]

Doesn't that fall into "take what you need and leave the rest" ?
So what's the problem?

To many people, AA is religious. Several supreme court decisions in the States support that it is.

Could you state any? I am not aware of them, and would be interested in reading the case history if so.

I agree that no on should be told that if you don't do AA/NA your a relapse waiting to happen. I suggest that's the intolerance of the individual speaking - not the program.

Years ago, I took classes in a particular psychological theory to work with children's behavior. I became an expert in it. One of the precepts was to stop spinning your wheels if something's not working -- to try something different.
Since then, I've learned multiple types of psychological theories towards the same end. And I think of them all in terms of the first. I won't spin my wheels using a theory that may not work with particular kids; I go on to another to try and reach them. But, it's all following what the first said -- stop spinning my wheels; try something different.

I guess I just try to keep it simple. It works for me.

Shalom!

[minnie]

There's loads of info out there if you google AA + religious + Supreme Court.

Here's one link http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...33/ai_81827987

[utopia]

when i came and found recovery working in my life i initally wanted to share it with the world. i now believe attraction works better than promotion. yet that initial fervor of wanting to save and enlighten others with the 12 steps, namely my family, helped me to understand certain christians who preach their gospel, even unwanted and unwelcome. the intention to share deep inner healing. for me it goes hand in hand with spiritual but i accept others if they disagree for themselves. thats their business and my business is my business. somewhere in the CAL i remember reading we don't spend too mucht ime defining the higher power but make sure to have one (step 2). preachers and self-righteous religious peoples used to enrage me but i personally have reclaimed religion (religion is relationship with god) as my own. i think god however you understand him/her/it is a PERSONAL experience. i also remember that what irritates me about others is usally something within me. in the religious case it was partly family stuff but partly my own self-righteousness, an armor that only the strongest light can pierce. peace, amen.

[historyteach]

Thanks, minnie!

Shalom!

[aloneagainor]

new thread idea...

[mishelly]

Originally Posted by kali ma

I went to my first meeting tonight.(the prayer at the end weirded me out a lot.)

When we open our meetings, we have a moment of silence, followed by the Serenity Prayer, "for those who care to join us."

We have an older gentlemen who does not care for the Serenity Prayer or the prayer at the end of the meeting. We circle up and he stands to the side and waits for us to finish. And no one is bothered by it. And that man has done that for well over four years...and he is still sober.

[shockozulu]

I agree that no on should be told that if you don't do AA/NA your a relapse waiting to happen. I suggest that's the intolerance of the individual speaking - not the program.

The little white book comes really close to saying its NA or the highway Teach,

What is there left to do? There seems to be
this alternative: either go on as best we can to the bitter ends—jails, institutions, or death—or
find a new way to live. In years gone by, very few addicts ever had this last choice. Those who
are addicted today are more fortunate. For the first time in man's entire history, a simple way
has been proving itself in the lives of many addicts.It is available to us all. This is a simple
spiritual—not religious—program, known as Narcotics Anonymous.

[Five]

I was just as afraid of being a "dry drunk" as relapsing. That little phobia indoctrination ripped my freedom from beneath my feet.

[Blake]

"or find a new way to live" doesn't translate to NA or the highway. It just says that NA is a simple way to find a new way to live....there are others.....no where does it ever say NA is the only way to recover.

[shockozulu]

Originally Posted by Blake

"or find a new way to live" doesn't translate to NA or the highway. It just says that NA is a simple way to find a new way to live....there are others.....no where does it ever say NA is the only way to recover.

This is what makes me feel that way

In years gone by, very few addicts ever had this last choice. Those who
are addicted today are more fortunate.

This is sounding like I'm bashing NA. I'm really trying not to. I am just trying to share my feelings and ESH regards to this program and how it was presented to me.