Athiests in AA??

[Abbadun]

Hi Ron

I have tried not to focus on the Founder’s intentions, we have no idea if they were truly for good or bad, we only have what is left to us and we can only judge what is written on the literature pages. I am not asking one to judge if the intent of the Founders was to help or hurt Atheists, just look at what they wrote and judge that by today’s standards because it is taught daily in meetings in today’s world not just 70+ years ago.

The need to focus on the worse of AA is because it is still being taught as if it was something of excellence.

Oddly enough all these problems in AA did help keep me in AA and sober. Once I recoginized that so much of the foundations were simply wrong or not fair/honest, I could then focus on what AA had to keep a person sober. Fellowship with other addicted people is one, newcomers who can be like the Forrest Gump of recovery is another and that what is in the foundation and based on wisdom from the ages is a third. An example is “one day at a time”, you can trace that back to early Greece.

The BS in the foundations is simply BS thought up by the founders.

Even-though I do use more than one step, I could use Step One to stay sober, I could use it as a spring board to all the knowledge in the world and history that says what AA does without any prejudice teachings. In my area AA does have a monopoly on the fellowship of addicted people and that is another reason that I use AA.


Ron, I ask you how can you answer the original question without addressing all the negative BS in AA in regards to secularism and Atheism?

AB

Originally Posted by Mongo

I've not posted on this thread until now because even though an atheist, I've chosen not to participate in AA.

There's a lot of things I like about the AA program that is not available in most areas for others notably the group participation.

I've read most of the big book. It seems to me that when it was written it was the authors' attempt to help as many struggling alcoholics as he could by sharing what worked for them. Thats exactly why I participate here, to read how other alcoholics deal with their issues in the hope that it will keep me sober. And it has, for which I am very grateful.

I really doubt that when the book was written the authors had an agenda to belittle atheists or other non christian groups. It was in the spirit of helping all people with an alcohol addiction.

Ab, please share with us how you've managed to stay sober, especially if you've participated in AA. This information could turn this into a valuable thread instead of one which is going absolutely nowhere.

The quotes from the big book have been read by all now, I think. No need to keep bringing them up. The original poster asked how one could use AA even in a secular way and there were a lot of insightful responses. It would be a shame if this thread were locked and sent to the bottom.

Just my thoughts.

Ron

[jimhere]

I think the point here is not to point out everything that is wrong. I'm not an athiest, am an active sixteen year sober member of AA, and I can still manage to find everything that is wrong and I'll point it out to you, most likely unsolicited. I don't that serves any useful purpose.

I want every alcoholic, regardless of belief or non-belief to have the chance I had. And if I can help them have that chance, that's my reason for being in AA in the first place.

I sponsored a man in AA who couldn't swallow the God stuff. I sponsor right out of the Big Book, so there is a lot of the God talk. This man helped me to see that my job isn't to convince him of anything. It is to help him find what it is that he needs so that he won't have to die of alcoholism. One day, when he became upset when reading Chapter 4, I suggested that he & I explore some possibilities. I wasn't familiar with any of the secular approaches, but I know a few athiests in AA who are sober a long time and good AA members and productive, useful members of society in general. So I introduced him to one of them and it worked. Like they say "there's a wrench for every nut." Who knows, had I continued to attempt to sponsor him in the way that I know, I might have killed him.
Jim

[paulmh]

Great post Jim, thanks

[historyteach]

abbadun;
You ask how to address atheists in AA without addressing what you consider "negatives."
By focusing on what YOU have DONE to stay sober in AA.
What has worked for you and others in your shoes.

There is NO bashing of other programs here. Nuff said now.

Shalom!

[Abbadun]

HI

What works for me is acknowledging all the negative teachings in AA and know what parts of AA to avoid. Speaking on the negative teaching of AA helps a lot also, silently agreeing with the prejudice teaching would not be healthy either.

Also talking about the negativity written in black and white in the AA Literature is not "Bashing". Most "healthy" organizations would change things so people would not have anything negative to point out.

AB

Originally Posted by historyteach

abbadun;
You ask how to address atheists in AA without addressing what you consider "negatives."
By focusing on what YOU have DONE to stay sober in AA.
What has worked for you and others in your shoes.

There is NO bashing of other programs here. Nuff said now.

Shalom!

[Abbadun]

Hi Jim

What useful purpose does ignoring negative and prejudice teachings and thought serve? By not point these facts out is not the membership agreeing with the original writings?

You go back to talking about the "God Stuff" which is meaningless compared to demeaning descriptions of Atheists in AA material. It is not the "God Stuff" in Chapter 4 that hurts Atheists.

AB

Originally Posted by jimhere

I think the point here is not to point out everything that is wrong. I'm not an athiest, am an active sixteen year sober member of AA, and I can still manage to find everything that is wrong and I'll point it out to you, most likely unsolicited. I don't that serves any useful purpose.

I want every alcoholic, regardless of belief or non-belief to have the chance I had. And if I can help them have that chance, that's my reason for being in AA in the first place.

I sponsored a man in AA who couldn't swallow the God stuff. I sponsor right out of the Big Book, so there is a lot of the God talk. This man helped me to see that my job isn't to convince him of anything. It is to help him find what it is that he needs so that he won't have to die of alcoholism. One day, when he became upset when reading Chapter 4, I suggested that he & I explore some possibilities. I wasn't familiar with any of the secular approaches, but I know a few athiests in AA who are sober a long time and good AA members and productive, useful members of society in general. So I introduced him to one of them and it worked. Like they say "there's a wrench for every nut." Who knows, had I continued to attempt to sponsor him in the way that I know, I might have killed him.
Jim

[jimhere]

I think we've had this discussion before AB, and I don't care to go there again. I didn't come over to the Secular board for this. Let's just agree that we disagree and let it go at that, OK?
Jim

[Abbadun]

Hi Jim

I am not sure which point you are asking my to agree to disagree on, there are so many. I still say that both the good and the bad in AA teachings should be focused on and shown for what they are. Ignoring that there is parts that are wrong in AA's teaching is simple not what organizations call "best practices"

AB

Originally Posted by jimhere

I think we've had this discussion before AB, and I don't care to go there again. I didn't come over to the Secular board for this. Let's just agree that we disagree and let it go at that, OK?
Jim

[Zencat]

I admit my emotions have gotten the better of me regarding the subject of AA. I went off topic. I did not participate accordingly to the subject, I stand corrected.

My experience’s in AA have been mixed. The program, as explained in the BB, as been used in a way ( admittedly, only by a few members ) to belittle my beliefs and to disparage me personally. I may have developed a thick skin yet those remarks still hurt. So I would advise one to censor their personal remarks that challenge the BB philosophy. In addition to that, do not expect to have your atheist beliefs honored or validated in the AA meeting’s that I go to. Alto there is a chance it may be different somewhere else.

What I find useful is the friendships I developed with free thinking individuals that attend AA meetings and AA social functions. I also utilize the meetings as a way to physically symbolize my personal commitment to sobriety.

I recognize that my views have been prejudiced by long years of religious cult programming. And from time to time those excruciating memories resurface when I here God talk. Especially when I hear some members use slogans in a malicious or demeaning way towards me.

Actually I was hoping to find a minimal of religious or God talk on this thread and yet what did I do, man I’ve got a lot to learn. Oh well, I try to keep an open mind but not so open that my brains fall out. Z

[Morning Glory]

Changing the program of AA is beyond the scope of these forums. The debate can and has gone on for years. This forum is for personal recovery. The original thread starter was asking for advice because he/she was going to attend an AA meeting. Bringing up everything that is wrong with AA goes beyond personal experience and beyond the topic of this thread.

The forums are intended for personal recovery. We are not going to change the program of AA on these forums so the discussion in general terms does not have a solution here.

Atheists and others have voiced their frustration against AA because there are no other options or because they think AA is harmful to others. Again that is beyond the scope of the intended purpose of these forums unless you are sharing your personal experience and seeking solutions or offering solutions that can help others who are posting on these forums.

There are some options.

Start a LifeRing Recovery Meeting
http://www.unhooked.com/msk/index.html

Start a SMART RecoveryR Meeting
http://www.smartrecovery.org/meetings/start.htm

Here is a list of some AA meetings for agnostics and atheists. Start your own.
http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html

If you want to debate about whats wrong with AA there are other forums for that purpose. If you want to change the program of AA you will need to take that up with them. If you want to change the attitude of everyone who attends AA I have no suggestions.

[Abbadun]

Hi Morning Glory

I do not think that I have called for a change in the AA program, I know that will never happen, but talking about these negative items that will never be changed is just a valid a topic as "Don't drink and go to meetings"

Talk about the negativity in AA does not have to be about changing AA, rather showing the true nature of the program and letting Atheists decide how much of the program to use. For Atheist Newcomers to be able to make a informed decide on what to do they need to hear the good and bad of AA.

AB

PS I would still recomend that any Atheist new to recovery find a good AA group if there is nothing better in their region.

Originally Posted by Morning Glory

Changing the program of AA is beyond the scope of these forums. The debate can and has gone on for years. This forum is for personal recovery. The original thread starter was asking for advice because he/she was going to attend an AA meeting. Bringing up everything that is wrong with AA goes beyond personal experience and beyond the topic of this thread.

The forums are intended for personal recovery. We are not going to change the program of AA on these forums so the discussion in general terms does not have a solution here.

Atheists and others have voiced their frustration against AA because there are no other options or because they think AA is harmful to others. Again that is beyond the scope of the intended purpose of these forums unless you are sharing your personal experience and seeking solutions or offering solutions that can help others who are posting on these forums.

There are some options.

Start a LifeRing Recovery Meeting
http://www.unhooked.com/msk/index.html

Start a SMART RecoveryR Meeting
http://www.smartrecovery.org/meetings/start.htm

Here is a list of some AA meetings for agnostics and atheists. Start your own.
http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/worldwide.html

If you want to debate about whats wrong with AA there are other forums for that purpose. If you want to change the program of AA you will need to take that up with them. If you want to change the attitude of everyone who attends AA I have no suggestions.

[jimhere]

Hey AB,
I'm really not asking you to agree with me about anything. But we've had the sort of round and round type discussions (yes I consider them discussions rather than arguments) about this subject before. You know that I don't agree 100% with your views and I know that you don't agree with mine. I was simply sharing one my very good experiences with working with an alcoholic who also is an athiest, and that although I am a God guy and he isn't, he was able to find spiritual power within himself as a result of the program. And not only get & stay sober, but is living a happy and productive life.

As MorningGlory has stated, I believe that discusions of this type are outside the scope of these forums, so to carry it further would be pointless and helpful to no one, especially the athiest alcoholic who is investigating AA. Perhaps the best you & I can do here is to point them towards a more secular approach if they find AA isn't for them. I've stated before that all for any approach that helps an alcoholic to recover.
Regards,
Jim

[Leo_the_Cat]

In Chicago there is Quad A - Atheists and Agnostics Alcoholics Anonymous. I have only attended one of their meetings but I do plan on giving it another try since the religiosity that I encountered in AA made me uncomfortable. Quad A is listed in AA's Chicago meeting directory as it satisfies the only requirement for an AA meeting.

[Doug]

This thread has gone way off track.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the first post.

[Abbadun]

Hi Doug

At the risk of being banned

I think that comments in regards of what is written in AA Literature about Atheists is dead on the question asked. People can take or leave AA's suggests in the Literature, but statements and stances by the Authors have to be addressed if the program is going to mean something to secular people.

AB

Originally Posted by Doug

This thread has gone way off track.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the first post.

[nolonger]

Originally Posted by Doug

This thread has gone way off track.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the first post.

Although I often disagree with Abbadun on the general issue of AA, I think he's right here. I'm certain that many atheists and agnostics outside the program read the literature and run a mile. Now that it's available on the internet, I'm sure there are people who never set foot inside a meeting because of it. (I'm saying this as an atheist who gets a lot from the fellowship and finds the literature - often because of the God stuff - useful and thoughtprovoking.)

Things only become a problem if a thread like this descends into "there is a God/is not/is too" or "AA is bad/no its not/yes it is". Thoughtful, and even strongly critical discussion on the detail of Bill W.'s book "Alcoholics Anonymous" is absolutely needed.

Having said all that, the thread is enormous! So it might be worth closing it. it's not like the issues will go away, so they'll come back again in other threads.
peace, nl.

[Doug]

You guys missed my point.

One person, asked one question. Think about it, re-read it. Or not.

[Doug]

And I haven't said anything about the issues one way or the other, I didn't even say anybody was wrong.

Re-read the first post, and pay attention to it. Then re-read my post and pay attention to it.

Or just keep doing what your doing....

[shockozulu]

My experiences were mixed. I found some help in the rooms, but I did find I needed to be a little more aware than the average person who entered their first meeting.

Now I was a strange bird when I was in NA/AA. I am religious but I did not find it helpful for me to work my religion to my recovery. Naturally I fell into the friendships of the athiests.

The only time we were uncomfortable was in meetings that ended in the Lord's Prayer. Luckly, we have enough meetings where I live so I can avoid those, and attend the ones that end in the 3rd Step "prayer".

[Abbadun]

Hi

I close many meetings in the Lord's Prayer if I am reading and with no problems, I feel the benefits comes from the human input into the Prayer. I also could never expect people to respect my own beliefs if I do not respect theirs. If 12 Step work is not maligning others I have no problems with eventhough I personally place little worth in it.

AB

Originally Posted by Alera

My experiences were mixed. I found some help in the rooms, but I did find I needed to be a little more aware than the average person who entered their first meeting.

Now I was a strange bird when I was in NA/AA. I am religious but I did not find it helpful for me to work my religion to my recovery. Naturally I fell into the friendships of the athiests.

The only time we were uncomfortable was in meetings that ended in the Lord's Prayer. Luckly, we have enough meetings where I live so I can avoid those, and attend the ones that end in the 3rd Step "prayer".

[Abbadun]

Hi Doug

Looking at my post I did point out a lot of issues with AA, but also gave recommendations for books to read and suggestions like for a secular person to severely filter out many AA suggestions.

AB

Originally Posted by Doug

This thread has gone way off track.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the first post.

[nolonger]

Originally Posted by Doug

And I haven't said anything about the issues one way or the other, I didn't even say anybody was wrong.

Re-read the first post, and pay attention to it. Then re-read my post and pay attention to it.

Or just keep doing what your doing....

Hi Doug. It might be helpful if you could be more specific about what the problem is. You seem to have some very clear ideas, but aren't saying what they are. Could you be more explicit? I think that might be helpful for everyone.
thanks, nl.

[historyteach]

Originally Posted by kali ma

Has anyone who considers themself an atheist or pagan on this site ever gone to AA? I have been sober for 44 days, and I think I am going to make my first attempt at going tonight. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. I know that you are supposed to take what you seem is prevalent and leave the rest, but does anyone have any more advise? Thanks.

Shalom!

[Abbadun]

Hi

To summarize my many messages.

I would recommend to go to meetings for the human benefits of fellowship.

I would reccommend that you filter out mentally any AA message (I am not talking about HP) that is directly prejudice and demeaning to Atheists. Later in your sobriety you can simply skip some meetings.

Understand that unlike most organizations these issues in AA will never be changed. Some of the teachings of AA are substandard in regards to Atheists, but the good will of individual people will always insure that there are some benefits for all people in AA.

AB

Originally Posted by historyteach

Shalom!

[nolonger]

Dear all,
I gave my – constructive and thoughtful, at least I hope so – views on the topic at various times in the last few weeks. I gave my thoughts on the thread in a post a couple of days ago. I don’t have much to add to either. But I do want to say, for the record, that I think Doug’s intervention here was not helpful and did not match up to my understanding of an administrator’s responsibilities.

The thread may have gone on too long, it may have (occasionally) become a little too heated, but that’s what happens among human beings when they discuss things they care about. I was a little tired of the topic, but not offended by anyone’s position or attitude. Then the administrator arrived, telling us – as if we were in school or in the army – that we had taken the thread “way off course.” He didn’t tell us what the course was supposed to be, or who decided on that course, or what specifically anyone had done to take it off course. Instead, he relied on dark insinuations and thinly veiled threats.

I might also point out that there are threads all over Sober Recovery which have wandered far from their original topic, and which have been a lot more heated than this one. So why has it been singled out like this? And what gives an administrator the idea to parachute into a discussion, not for a friendly word of advice, or to make a suggestion, but to announce that they know the correct “course” of a discussion, they won’t tell us, but expect us to follow it, or else face consequences they will decide on.

After this, things have suddenly gone very quiet on the secular forum.

I waited for an answer to my polite questions above before posting my opinion on this, but the answers never came.
peace to all,
nl.