I am sorry for being me

[Don W]

I am sorry that because of people like me you had to start a new board. There was a time on SR that I only needed to be me. There was a time when I could speak from my heart without question. Many of you talk about a perfect world. You have excluded us that had no choice. Don.W would never kill anyone. However, I spent 2 years in Vietnam. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't picture either having to kill someone or helping to kill someone. One of the resons that I'm a patiet at the V A Hospital is as follows. I helped load the napalm bombs. I still live with the picture of that little girl running down the road with her clothes and skin burnt of by napalm.
When I came to SR, I found people that didn't judge me for what I was, but the person that I am. I am sorry, and maybe I'm wrong. However, I feel that this new board was developed so that you don't have to deal with me. Maybe I'm wrong but, me feeling is that we have a common enemy alcohol. Today, as other Veterans I struggle. However, I'm sorry that because I'm me, you've chosen to not deal or help me. Maybe it's best not to be here anymore. I can't help being me. I won't bother you anymore. I don't want to be responsibe for your drinking. Again, I guess I was wrong, belonging to SR, I thought I had to only be me, not belong.

[best]

Don

This forum is an addition, not a replacement. It has been added for all not because of any one person.

If we were to add a board for any one person or situation, the best idea I can think of would be a board for vets because only other vets can truly understand what a vet deals with in life.

You are a very important part of SR and I am sorry you feel the way you do.
I don't know a one who would like to see you go. You have brought much and added much here.

[paulmh]

I haven't been coming to SR for long but I've benefitted from the things you've written. You should be aware of that. You should be aware that you help to keep people like me sober, even if we don't say it.

I understand the desire that secularists have to have a place where there is less AA and religious influence. I was very anti-AA before, like you say, I realised I had no choices left about how I got sober. It seems that some people do have those choices, and good luck to them. I'll hang around here because secularists who think AA is simply religious don't understand AA. And if any of them are like me or like you, one day they'll need it.

Setting up a board like this is done with the intention of helping some people, not to get at others. Honesty is a common currency in recovery, isn't it?

Today I'm keeping it simple.

[Don W]

I'm sorry but, I feel hurt. I can't help how i feel, anymore than I can help being me. This board came about after some pretty mean things were said on other boards. Just go back and review the thread, why can't we have---. It was plain to me, that this person hated me. This board may have been created with good intensions, but it wasn't created until fritolay, expressed his hate for people like me.

[Don W]

Paulmh, Maybe that is my weakness. Today, I have problems being anti anything or anyone. However, I feel in my heart that because of this I have advanced. I guess I still have too thin skin. I like fritonlay and others that have a different view. Because of this mean statements hurt, I know, I'm living in a dream world. My dream world pictures us enjoying each other being me or them. I guess this might be one of the down side of recovery, picturing everyone together.

[best]

*paraphrased*
And Jesus said...don't be shocked when they say things unto you and remember that when they reject you, it is me they are rejecting not you.

[Morning Glory]

Hey Don.

I created this forum and you know how much I care about you. I would never create a forum with the intentions of hurting you. There have been many requests for an alternative forum. It was not that thread that lead me to create this forum. It was other threads from the past. We tried an alternative forum before and it didn't work. Having a secular forum was a new idea with the intentions of creating a place for all our recovery programs that had a secular view of recovery. That includes 12 step groups. It doesn't exclude anyone. Our secular members have grown in number and I felt there was a need for this forum. It was the same with the spirituality forum. No difference.

Hugs,
MG

[paulmh]

YOu and Best can correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we now understand that we are self-centred souls who understand the world only as it relates to us? And don't we now understand that our inflated egos are what make us vulnerable and sensitive to the opinions of others, and that in that sensitivity lies a drink for us?

You know we can't control the world. You know that when we allow ourselves to be hurt becuase the world doesn't give us what we think we should get, only we notice. You know that that is the alcoholics way, to feel more the ***** of one person's disapproval rather than the love of hundreds? You better believe that that's me, and I only maintain a balance when I remember - resentments are taken, not given.

[paulmh]

Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh right, it's a board for secular recovery programmes, not just for secularists generally?

How come they keep talking about God then?

I'll get me coat....

[Morning Glory]

Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh right, it's a board for secular recovery programmes, not just for secularists generally?

I don't know what you mean by that Paul.

[Don W]

Best, you might think it wrong but it is how I feel. Just like you expect I should expect it of others view, so should they of mine. Hurtful things said hurt regardless. You and others might have good intentions. However, the fact is that this board evolved from hateful things said on fritolays thread. Go back and read them. How can I not feel hurt. Sorry, but nobody can take back the mean things fritolay said. He put them out, sorry they hurt me. Did you think this board was going to be without controversy? Many thouht little of causing it on other boards that didn't conform to their beliefs. Most of this is a mute point as far as I'm concerned. People like fretolay have decided to change the direction of the inten of this board. I used to believe it was directed towards sobriety. Now it is directed toward individual beliefs. Simply put, belive what someone thinks or be attacted. Sober recovery used to be a safe haven. As you said, I don't think Jesus meant that we should hurt others. Today, you have chosen to hurt me, today I am chosing to no longer seek help here, fore help is no longer here. Today, I'm resigning my membership in SR. It can now be guided not by hope but by fritolay. Goodby SR. I'll try to remember you as you were. Good by best, congragulations. You and frito lay have won in my book. Just hope your still here 6 years from now like I've been.

[Don W]

I'll make it even more simple for everyone. You no longer have to deal with my feeling and thoughts. It is clear to me that they offend many. Morning Glory, I don't question your decision to start this board. i only question thos that chose to hurt others in fritolays thread. And I quote," I wish we could have a board all our own, so that we don't have tp put up with the AA cult."
Well, hope you stay sober without me, and I don't cosider myself a cult member. I'm only a sober Vietnam Veteran.

[paulmh]

Sorry MG, I was being flippant.

Still finding my feet.

Secular recovery means something quite specific it seems, which I didn't realise.

Don, I'm just editing this to respond to you too. I trust you didn't take my post as an attempt to criticise. There's obviously a lot of history to this issue that I know nothing about so perhaps its best if I just stay silent.

[Morning Glory]

Having a secular forum was a new idea with the intentions of creating a place for all our recovery programs that had a secular view of recovery.

I see I worded that wrong. This forum is a fourm for all members with a secular view point in any recovery program.

[Autumn]

(((Don))).....

I understand how you feel. Sometimes I feel like there's certain forums where I don't belong either, like the Men's Forum. Boy, I'd like to give you guys an earful, lol!

Seriously though Don, sometimes I feel uncomfortable expressing legitimate concerns about AA, since I do attend with my SO who still actively drinks. Questions for myself and for him. But I'm not a "member", so I feel like I don't belong in that forum.

I finally decided that AA isn't for me - hard as I tried to fit in. This, however, has everything to do with the program and very little to do with its members. Never can I forget the love and guidance you all have shown me (*yourself included*).

You are a very important part of SR Don, and I hope to see you read and post in this forum, perhaps to expand your horizons and maybe pick up on some different techniques to help you in your sobriety. Sometimes, those with different viewpoints can help us to see things at a different angle we may have not otherwise considered.

I hope you feel better soon.

[Morning Glory]

Don. I know you are hurt and I don't think your feelings are wrong, but I hope you remember how those PTSD shame attacks overwhelm us and make things much bigger than they really are. It is my experience that you are having a shame attack when you link a present situation in with your guilt from vietnam. You are feeling the emotions of all of it. Not just this one incident with another member's hurtful remarks.

[Don W]

I've ecided to add. Seeing how attcking other programs is in style here. I just went through a 30 day program at the Bedford Mass VA Hospital. Along with the AA Groups Smart Recovery puts on a program. They are so anti veteran that the VA dosen't require us to attend. I respect Don s but, he isn't like the person that puts on the program at the V A Hospital. Most Veterans hate him almost as much as Jane Fonda and John Kerry. Don S, are you sure your from the same group?

[Don W]

Paulmh, Sorry for mentioning God or myself, hope you feel better. I would also like you to go back to fritolays thread on alcohism. Please reread some of the mean things he and other said about people " Like Me". Afterwards that I feel hurt. Of course, when I returned from Vietnam, John Kerry and his friends called me a baby killer. I still remember walking down Merrimack Street in Lowell, Mass. in my uniform. Someone threw a coke can covering me with soda, calling me a baby killer. Come to think of it, it was my fault, some of you would think. I was only 19 years old, and although old enough to die for my country, not old enough to drink or vote.

[best]

Don I grew up in that time frame and I also had to listen to Kerry say pretty much the same stuff when my son was in Iraq as well.
I remember my brother comeing home on leaves back then and saying he is required to remain in uniform. I also remember him coming home once and saying he will rather get in trouble for being out of uniform then to put up with the crap.
He was in country in 71.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I see I worded that wrong. This forum is a fourm for all members with a secular view point in any recovery program.

exactally.

I am secular, but I am also fully involved in NA. I feel as if I belong here.

Don, you are taking on other people's **** and making it your own. You have been through some rough **** and noone that wasn't there has a right to judge you or can fully understand where you are comming from. It's their ignorance and thier own low self esteem that drive them to judge and put down. All you have to do is take care of you and stop worring about how others feel about you and focus on how you feel about you. Do what you need to do to feel good about you. and **** anyone that can't respect that.


some of us are sick sick people....you don't have to take someone elses sickness to your heart and you don't have to be a victim anymore. You control your destiny.

I am an addict, just like you. I can understand that, and it makes us similar even though we have lead different lives. I love you and relate to that in you. We do recover.

I wish you peace,
Blake

[historyteach]

Don:
This forum was NOT created because of you, or frieto or any individual.
I'm NOT a part of AA; I don't think it's a cult, (rediculous idea!); and you and I know each other well enough for me to call you on your stuff.

Don, MG has a good point. Your having some type of feeling that SR revolves around you. It doesn't.

You served your country. For that, you should be proud. To hell with what others say. You know you did your best at the time. That's all we can do. Ever.

But, to leave SR because there's a new forum is absurd! You didn't leave when we created the spirituality forum; the cafe; the follies. If you leave over this, you are only biting off your nose to spite your face. Because, this forum is NOT about YOU.
And it never was.

I love you Don. I hope you are well. Most importantly, I hope you will sleep on this idea and realize that leaving SR is not what you want to do.

You're family, Don. Hang in, even in the tough times. That's what famlies do.

Shalom!

[Grasshopper]

Hi,when the egos,divide and seprate,each of us,i dont take it personally,myself.The egos,have many reasons to keep folks apart.Thats the egos job,ive often heard.To divide/seprate.It doesnt matter to me.Thats their issue,i dont own it.I join,and in fellowship,regardless,and will share,with all.How others feel about this,well,what can i say?...smile.And yupper when,im, sharring i always mention God.For this is my experience.
Don my advice,and i dont give out much advice,is be who you are,everywhere you go.If folks shut ya out,that has everything to do with them,their issues,and not you.Live and let live.

[Grasshopper]

Don,i just wanted to add if i may.I saw a show a few years back,,and the girl that was running down the road,with no clothes,was on it.Also was the man,who flew over the area,and let the bombs go down,thinking as he said,that there were no people,in that area.This was what they were told,only to find,that there were lots of folks,living in that area.Now many years later,both the man,and the girl,who is a grown women were both on this talk show.Don,she said,that she has forgiven him.She told him what her life is like today.Going to school,she,s healthy,happy.And she could see that he had not forgiven himself.And she asked him to.She said its over,all of it.All the regrets,of Vietnam,we will learn from them.Can change nothing about what has happened.We learn.She told him to go on with life.And again she told him,that she forgave him.And that she will pray for him.Im from the ole school.I remember Vietnam.All the country were encourging the troops to go there to war,.Thats why you were there.People forgot ,when you came back,that they sent you there.,with all their name-calling.You didnt go on your own free will.Right/wrong,we cant change the past.The girl is living an effective,relativiely happy life today.Surrender all your pain to God.Let God heal,you.
my prayers are with you,.

[Peter]

Don this forum was not created because of you personally.

Frits thread may have been the calayst for finally opening it but it has long been debated about opening another "alternative views" thread.

Don I believe America has changed since the seventies. Most people do not blame you for what happened in Vietnam anymore. You need to move on from that.

Yes frit did say some hurtful things but then frito is a hurtful person whom I believe carries a lot of hurt inside him too.

As someone who has been been given too much responsibility too early and expected to do horrendous things in the name of freedom ,I understand you may still carry a lot of pain because of that. Don't take fritos pain onto yourself let it pass through you.You take on his hurt and you only become a vessel yourself for more hurt.

Yes SR has expanded and seems a less friendly place today but that is because there are a lot more people around today with "anti" sentiments. Many may not only be "anti this or anti that" but may even be resentful of the opinions of others.

I won't try to discourage you from making your own decisions but you will encounter unkind people wherever you go. At least at SR you know there are some who genuinely care about you and wish you well.

[Wolfstarr]

Hi ((((Don))))

I am hoping that you know I care a great deal for you. Let me go off forum topic and say that I have missed you so much, and glad you are back here.
I honestly admit I don't know what this forum is about, I will have to learn, but I do know that I am learning, and it was like a hammer to the noggin, that:
"One of the highest places you can get to is to be independent of the good opinions of other people"

In other words Don, you have helped many here, including me. I find you an inspiration, a strength that I have not found in other people. Please forgive me if I am forward or out of line here, but...let fritolay go. Some folks just don't know what their "good opinions" do to the sensitive, loving people that we are.

I am also thankful, and you can take this any way you want, that you were in Vietnam. What you experienced was not what any of us would want, but you did. I am indebted to you for it as a fellow human. My connection to you and others who had to endure the horrific conditions of Vietnam, and now Iraq, is bound by love, respect and compassion for what you and others have to experience.
Let go of the "good opinions" of others. Be independent of them.

Now that being said I am going to look up what this forum means. I am kinda dense sometimes...

I am lighting a candle to St Jude for you. I know you like his healing force.

Love you Don.
Wolfie