AlericB

Perhaps but try dropping a hammer on your foot and you will know absolutely that there is an I!

I just mean that by practising separation you can shift your viewpoint from being someone who desires a drink to someone who is aware of the desire and is to that extent conciously separate from and beyond it.

AlericB

Up to now I've been practicing AVRT largely on trust. I love the simple yet profound logic and also it's goal of permanent, secure abstinence, and this forum has some excellent teaching. I've been able to recognise and separate from enough AV to stop me from drinking but up till now it has felt somewhat unconvincing, that it really was me and not my IT that wanted to drink

I think the problem I had was that while I was able to identify any thought, feeling or imagery that suggested future drinking as AV I had no clear vision of the AV itself, as a persona that organises my thoughts and feelings around the mandate to drink as I've read it expressed here.

I see the AV persona now as like two pieces of tracing paper each with my figure drawn on it and placed exactly on top of one another so it looks like one image, and then the top paper was shifted and the two images separated,.one being me of course and one my AV, and this is helping me achieve the separation required to feel secure.

I was wonderiig how others view their separation from their AV?

GerandTwine

Four years ago I made a Big Plan against eating manmade sweets ever again, right here on SC. Before making that plan, that Addictive Voice felt like it was a persona similar to what you describe. Only after making that plan did I realize that, by putting it off, I had been rendering myself subservient to that Beast. That's what made ITs AV feel like a full persona.

Procrastination the Big Plan was clouding my Technique of Recognizing ITs AV. I was not separating from thoughts and feelings about having not made that plan yet. Since it was ME who had to make the Big Plan, I thought it was ME who was resisting making the Big Plan. NO, I was just going along with IT by not yet making the Big Plan.

Once I made that Big Plan, I virtually instantly recognized what I had been missing all along: that IT really doesn't have a "persona" as I do. IT is an ancient, yet very singleminded, drive for just one thing. Hardly a persona. Without full recognition, the AV can feel like a persona. With full quick recognition, IT never gets so far as to seem like a persona any more.

AlericB

Interesting, thanks. When I was drinking it was as if my AV was me. I couldn't discern my AV as something separate at all because I was looking out from both my eyes and my AV's eyes. So my AV had a persona which was all the aspects of me that were centered around drinking. Are you saying that when a Big Plan is made, the AV splits off and this sense of indentity with it disappears because it no longer feels like a 'person', and so making it easy and natural to say, for example, "I don't desire to drink, IT does"?

GerandTwine

It's more like when I made the Big Plan, I changed my future forever by making a complete reversal of my previous attempts to protect the Drunken Me, my previous attempts to find the right time and place to get that fantastic buzz all over again without getting in trouble.

By making the Big Plan I totally demolished that old pact I had for Me to work together with Drunken Me; for me to serve what I learned was my Beast of Booze. Instead I literally turned against it and killed the Drunken Me. I knew it was gone for good, and there was sadness. The Drunken me HAD BEEN a persona, and he was DEAD. I literally killed him with my BP.

My Beast didn't change, I was the one that became a traitor to ITs cause. By making that Big Plan I revolted absolutely against IT, and IT then stood out crystal clear to me.

IT then tried hard with its AV morphing using various tactics, in dreams, playing in the background of my memories, getting me to feel like I had failed with my BP. On several occasions it even took me a few seconds to consciously realize I had not failed with my BP. IT was juggling the past to try and get me anxious of my own competence.

The beauty of AVRT and the BP is the focus on the fact that the Beast is a quadriplegic firing neurons in a small part of my brain, and the tools of RR simply keep me grounded in that reality, not confused or seduced by our society's immersion in diseased learned helpessness.

Wholesome

I see it more as my higher and lower self. My lower self is irresponsible, selfish, indulgent, hedonistic. My higher self is responsible, loving, caring, thoughtful. When I drank I set the bar quite low for myself, I just maintained the status quo, as long as the minimum got done I told myself everything was OK. My higher self demands more of me but the rewards are greater, even if they aren't immediately apparent. It's tempting to live in that lower frequency because it appears to be easier but in reality it's not, the things that are worth it aren't supposed to be easy.

AlericB

I think the reason I found separation so difficult was because I wasnt sure what to do with the thought "I would like to drink moderately". To who, or what, should I assign this thought: me or the Beast? It's clearly AV because it directly promotes drinking again but it was also something I wanted too. This contrasts with the desire to drink uncontrollably because this is something I wanted to disocciate from for the moral reason zenchaser described.

The answer came once I put it through the AVRT mill though. Any thought that suggests future drinking is AV and so must be separated from regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with it. Case solved

dwtbd

I would like to drink moderately.

What would that look like in practice? Do you mean that part of you wants to be 'able' to drink in a moderate fashion( and this term needs some fleshing out) or that permanent abstinence is the goal but the thought will sometimes occur a kin to a pipe dream and recognized as such?

AlericB

I find the (pipe) dream of being able to drink moderately the hardest thing to let go off and I feel, rightly or wrongly, that if I could only accept that as AV and separate from it I would find permanent abstainance effortless.

Thinking about your question some more, my answer is that I don't want to drink moderately at all. I really just want the buzz again which moderate drinking wouldn't give me. The thought of moderation must be pure AV then, and not me.

Thanks

Wholesome

I never wanted to drink moderately, I've never understood people who do. What's the point of only having one or two?

What I found the hardest to accept was the dream that I could control the situations, the timing and the environments that I would drink in such a way that I'd be able to mitigate the consequences. I'll only drink when ... or if .... I would make up all these rules that never actually worked or that I never actually stuck to but were a stupid head game I played with myself to justify the craziness.

dwtbd

After making a BP , I took an inventory of sorts, spent some time introspectively looking back at my motivations for drinking. What aspects of drinking did I truly enjoy , how was I going to be 'able' to handle the missing things of that sort.

Through the lens of AVRT I realized the most pleasurable aspect of moderate drinking, or the first few, was that those first were the promise of more. The beginning of the buzz was the feeling that signaled the race to oblivion was on !
There was nothing more disappointing then being in a situation where/when a session would need to be limited to just those few. A couple or a few was almost always infuriating, even if only inwardly. I'd endure the social constraints and finish the night on my own,which was really the best way to properly indulge .

Not to rehash a drunkalog, but to point out that , for me, the pleasure of the first drink or drinks, wasn't the mild effects of them, it was the stirrings of the promise they held. The deep pleasure was always a level of intoxication far beyond the initial buzz, and satisfying the urge for that level of deep pleasure was almost always beyond my own limits. I don't really remember any instance of my thoughts or feelings immediately before blacking out , or passing out , but I can pretty much guarantee they were centered around the general concept of More. Every time.

Drunk Me and my Beast were completely in sync, the first few tickled his fancy and that was fine with me. We both welcomed the start. He never cared about the aftermath, but I couldn't take it anymore. He nearly had me convinced I'd miss even the first few, I don't , IT still does , and I couldn't care less

shockozulu

I wanted to drink moderately because I enjoy the taste of a good wine with a high quality meal. I never abused wine, nor did I get a buzz or craving after drinking a single glass. To be honest, I generally left the glass almost half full after dinner.

I will never indulge in that fantasy but still miss the taste of a good wine with an Italian dinner.

Algorithm

I am late to the game, but this is an interesting thread. As often occurs, however, some common misunderstandings of AVRT crop up, notably from those who view AVRT as a form of CBT or REBT, which it is not, since AVRT violates most of the axioms of those models.

Firstly, I will refer anyone interested in AVRT to the following posts from the multi-part AVRT discussion thread, which includes a link to the post that Tatsy previously quoted in this thread.

Common Misunderstandings --

REBT vs AVRT --

I cannot match your style, Greenwood, but thank you for your posts on this thread trying to clarify things, especially the posts about metaphors. AVRT is a difficult paradigm to learn at first, due to the influence of our culture at large.

The structural model makes it quite clear that the Beast is not a metaphor, but a reality. The structural model identifies addiction as a pseudo-survival drive analogous to breathing and sexual striving, a grand illusion of necessity enveloped in the Addictive Voice, which is subjectively experienced as the self (as "me"). Beast is simply the name that AVRT gives to that drive.

I am glad that you picked up on this, zerothehero.

AVRT is simply a paradigm (a model) for understanding addiction, and also a recipe for recovery from addiction via planned, permanent abstinence. To those who are unfamiliar with AVRT, it may appear to be a form of CBT or REBT, but this is not the case. The differences partly led to the split between RR, which wanted to use AVRT as the primary focus once it was synthesized, and SMART, which wanted to use CBT and REBT.

By far, the most common misunderstanding of AVRT is that the Addictive Voice amounts to irrational thinking that may be challenged, disputed, or reasoned against. This is simply not the case, and disputation of the AV is impossible because it is not capable of or susceptible to change. It cannot be disputed any more than one's sex drive can be disputed.

It may appear that the Big Plan is a disputation of the AV, but it is not. It is arrived at largely through intuition, since there is usually never enough evidence at hand to prove that permanent abstinence will bring about better things, like a better job or marriage. Indeed, AVRT would identify such thinking as bargain thinking, a condition for abstinence, which can easily become a condition for drinking in its absence.

A Big Plan is a chosen irrationality, in which one's commitment to abstinence is arbitrary, permanent, and absolutist. Through the lens of AVRT, any further disputation of the Addictive Voice beyond the Big Plan is regarded as entering into negotiations with the Beast on the terms of surrender -- conditions under which drinking might be allowed.

The Beast of AVRT is a rational entity, and its AV is not an irrational belief. The Beast equates abstinence with its own death, and it wants to survive, hence its persistence. It would be very irrational indeed for any entity to not want to try to survive. The Beast may certainly cause big problems for its host, but the Beast is is a rational entity, insofar as its single-mindedness is in pursuit of its own survival.

The Beast cannot be reasoned with or disputed in any way. Its amorphous AV plays both sides of any argument, and will use any logic to cook up new and creative justifications to drink or use. When this is finally recognized, and the Big Plan is adopted as the ultimate refutation, ending the debate before it even starts, by making anything the AV says dead wrong before it even says it, the AV is neutralized.

I will also add that the I/It split in AVRT is not between rational and irrational, but between higher/moral thinking and lower, base biological drives. The AV is a rational, intelligent expression of a valid (i.e., real) biological drive for pleasure which is equated by the body with survival.

Some have inquired as to how to picture their Beast. In AVRT, we do not picture the Beast, even though we know its nature. Its nature is simply that of a strong biological desire for the feelings produced by intoxicants, feelings which, again, are interpreted by the body as necessary for survival.

It would be an error to draw a mental picture of the Beast and to then stand vigilant, looking for something that fits that mental picture, for example. The Beast is just there, and will define itself through the AV. The Beast is a master of disguise, since it must be experienced as self in order for it to gain traction, and if we try to predict the AV, it will seem baffling.

The Addictive Voice is simply any thinking or feeling that that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol and other drugs. With this definition, we may simply recognize the Beast by its bark.

AV → Beast = Bark → Dog

AlericB

Yes, trying to moderate consciously would be agony because I'd always be conscious that I want another. The only way this wouldn't be the case would be if just one or two satiated me to the point of boredom with alcohol - a remote contingency!

dwtbd

Even if it were easy , after a BP it's no longer a choice the decision has been made. " I want another" is no longer operative, IT wants another , on the other hand is / will always be operative, but so what ?

Wholesome

Beauty post Algo! I find it hard to put into words but you do a stand up job articulating the concept!

The division of self became crystal clear to me this weekend when I was out on the water with my AV in hyperdrive wanting me to have a beer or 12. My bf asked me to hold his beer and I brought it up to my face and smelled it. I knew full well before I did that under no circumstances was I going to drink it. I'd never done the shifting exercise where I felt I was in full control, never teased my Beast like that, just smelling it excited my brain and left my Beast with a feeling of let down. It was interesting. When he wanted it back I passed it over and carried on. No big thing. But in that moment I felt my Beast, that drive, that addiction, the attraction and the want..... there IT is.

AlericB

This is very helpful thanks. When I quit smoking I intuitively knew that I had to renounce it completely and it was tough but I never wavered over my decision.

With drinking it's like in my heart of hearts I know it's true too but I'm finding it much harder to do. It could be that when I quit smoking I was single and did it only for me whereas now I'm doing it also for my wife and kids. In some ways that makes me think my decision is not really my own but I guess in life there's rarely just a single reason for what we do and my decision about never drinking again can be and is a sincere one.

Wholesome

I found quitting drinking to be harder than smoking too. Even with all the consequences of drinking, there were still those good times! Like I loved going out and drinking all afternoon and evening on my boat, I really did, I had some great times. It's hard to give it up when it's not all bad. Those good times were killing me though...... I could not keep it to only certain occasions. I tried and failed! Every. Single. Time. My AV always got the better of me and next thing I knew I was breaking my own rules and creating chaos and havoc in my life all for that buzz. My AV always ruled me, never the other way around. As you can see from this post, my AV uses those good memories against me.....it wasn't ALL bad...... what about the GOOD times?

I would say that your ambivalence about your reasons for quitting is AV trying to sow seeds of doubt.

AlericB

Yes, I think you're right zenchaser.

I need to choose between the elegant logic of AVRT and my childish illogic of wanting to drink moderately but only if I can be moderate all day long!

JeffreyAK

I can't say I do, anymore, though I used to want that. That was my dream of dreams when I was a heavy drinker, all through a long period of failed attempts at controlling myself, but for me it soured so badly so quickly at the end that I just don't wish to go there anymore. The idea of actually drinking is a bit sickening to me, now, because that thought carries a lot of really heavy baggage that my thinking logical brain can't separate out, and I never really truly liked the taste anyways. Don't know if it's a curse or a blessing, but it does leave me able to honestly say, I don't want to drink moderately or at all, ever again.